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  1. #1
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
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    Default Stealth, Occultism and Vanity

    First off, I like the changes that have been made to DDO's stealth system. Being able to jump while hiding helps to avoid mobs, and even if a mob detects you can lose him eventually instead of being followed until one of the two is dead. Awesome job, devs!

    Unfortunately several quest designers do not seem to like this and forced me to seek different ways on my rogue, including human sacrifice and exhibitionism:

    For example when I soloed A Lesson in Deception I came to a wooden gate. I could not climb over it and I could find no mechanism with which to open it. Only after I let the streets run red with the blood of a nearby group of humans who sat around a fire the deity of doors was appeased and opened the gate.

    Similarly, in The Tracker's Trap there were several magical barriers which could only be suppressed by sacrificing the souls of sentient beings (orcs iirc).

    The weirdest thing, however, occured to my rogue in Through the Mirror Darkly: At several places I had to look into a tiny mirror (0.01 lbs weight) to advance the quest, and apparently I'm so vain that after "gazing into the mirror" (floating text on activation) I just had to show myself to everyone else in the room, as using the mirror broke stealth.

    Now I do not ask for all quests to be modified to accomodate stealthy players, but having to kill a room full of mobs before it's possible to proceed is lazy quest design imho, and so is breaking stealth by using a tiny object on yourself that is in your inventory to begin with.

  2. #2
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    Great post! You're absolutely correct and the fixes to the quests you're requesting make sense.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I agree with most of what is in the OP, but I offer this explanation for the mirror:
    In my experience with DnD most magic, and most magic items, have a very very obvious effect. So much so that it is very very difficult to use them and not be noticed. While the act of looking into the mirror itself might go unnoticed, the act of shifting planes might be very a very very obvious event that disturbs the area around you enough to give your position away. This might be doubly obvious to those already so attuned to the shadow plane as shar's followers.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I call those "Zelda doors" - the first legend of zelda had rooms where you had to kill everything in the room before the doors would open.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #5
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    It's entirely reasonable you might not be able to drop a gate without killing some trash.

    That said, it's possible to ghost quite a bit of Through the Mirror even when gazing into a room of trash (on some thought, it may be able to be fully ghosted - the exception being the end boss). My guess is you haven't scratched the surface on figuring out the stealth changes, so back to rogue school for you.
    Last edited by myliftkk_v2; 09-04-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I call those "Zelda doors" - the first legend of zelda had rooms where you had to kill everything in the room before the doors would open.
    Ahh, yeah! You're right! A lot of these Zelda doors are in game frequently. But I liked the OP's explanation of appeasing The Diety of Doors better ;P

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizeh View Post
    Similarly, in The Tracker's Trap there were several magical barriers which could only be suppressed by sacrificing the souls of sentient beings (orcs iirc).
    I haven't run that specific quest, but there are a few quests where a particular enemy is maintaining a barrier. Killing the appropriate shaman/druid/dryad/elemental or the like lets you get past it, even if you leave others alive. I'm fine with those quests. And there are a few quests where particular enemies have keys that they only drop if killed. That's fine too.

    But the quests where you have to kill all the enemies in a room for no reason, in order to advance the quest, really break immersion for me, and that's just no fun.

  8. #8
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotSomeQuestions View Post
    I haven't run that specific quest, but there are a few quests where a particular enemy is maintaining a barrier. Killing the appropriate shaman/druid/dryad/elemental or the like lets you get past it, even if you leave others alive. I'm fine with those quests. And there are a few quests where particular enemies have keys that they only drop if killed. That's fine too.

    But the quests where you have to kill all the enemies in a room for no reason, in order to advance the quest, really break immersion for me, and that's just no fun.
    I am with you on this. It is just poor design in my opinion. They don't want to slow down zerging and also have a complete and utter lack of imagination on how to implement it.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    [...]
    In my experience with DnD most magic, and most magic items, have a very very obvious effect.
    [...]
    Good point, and of course after finding out using the mirror breaks stealth I always moved into a corner before using it.

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    [...]

    My guess is you haven't scratched the surface on figuring out the stealth changes, so back to rogue school for you.
    Of course with the changes I haven't perfected 'new stealth' yet, and I hope I'll eventually get there, but this thread was more about the "this door won't open until all mobs are dead" approach. Of course this can be dealt with using rogue tactics including assassinate, bluff pull, etc., but there are quests that allow different approaches already, like Frame Work, Schemes of the Enemy, or Partycrashers (ok, the last one only lets you do a split up version of the end fight beforer the end, but it's still awesome). I'd really like to see more of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by GotSomeQuestions View Post
    I haven't run that specific quest, but there are a few quests where a particular enemy is maintaining a barrier. Killing the appropriate shaman/druid/dryad/elemental or the like lets you get past it, even if you leave others alive. I'm fine with those quests. And there are a few quests where particular enemies have keys that they only drop if killed. That's fine too.

    But the quests where you have to kill all the enemies in a room for no reason, in order to advance the quest, really break immersion for me, and that's just no fun.
    This pretty much sums up what I was trying to say: I have no problem if I have to defeat an enemy or group of enemies to advance as long as I can see a reason, but if I have to eliminate a room full of mobs just because otherwise a wooden door on the far side of the room won't open I'd like to see alternative solutions as well (which could cater to different classes, not just "stealthers", the altars in Lords of Dust are a good example, even though in this case it's just for an optional).

  10. #10
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizeh View Post
    First off, I like the changes that have been made to DDO's stealth system. Being able to jump while hiding helps to avoid mobs, and even if a mob detects you can lose him eventually instead of being followed until one of the two is dead. Awesome job, devs!

    Unfortunately several quest designers do not seem to like this and forced me to seek different ways on my rogue, including human sacrifice and exhibitionism:

    For example when I soloed A Lesson in Deception I came to a wooden gate. I could not climb over it and I could find no mechanism with which to open it. Only after I let the streets run red with the blood of a nearby group of humans who sat around a fire the deity of doors was appeased and opened the gate.

    Similarly, in The Tracker's Trap there were several magical barriers which could only be suppressed by sacrificing the souls of sentient beings (orcs iirc).

    The weirdest thing, however, occured to my rogue in Through the Mirror Darkly: At several places I had to look into a tiny mirror (0.01 lbs weight) to advance the quest, and apparently I'm so vain that after "gazing into the mirror" (floating text on activation) I just had to show myself to everyone else in the room, as using the mirror broke stealth.

    Now I do not ask for all quests to be modified to accomodate stealthy players, but having to kill a room full of mobs before it's possible to proceed is lazy quest design imho, and so is breaking stealth by using a tiny object on yourself that is in your inventory to begin with.
    While we're asking for magic items to interact properly with stealth, maybe we should relook at flaming weapons, because sneaking in stealth mode carrying a torch just makes so much sense...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  11. #11
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    While we're asking for magic items to interact properly with stealth, maybe we should relook at flaming weapons, because sneaking in stealth mode carrying a torch just makes so much sense...
    I'd like that; it might resolve the problem of radiance2 GS weapons not shedding light in Rainbow in the Dark

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizeh View Post
    Of course with the changes I haven't perfected 'new stealth' yet, and I hope I'll eventually get there, but this thread was more about the "this door won't open until all mobs are dead" approach. Of course this can be dealt with using rogue tactics including assassinate, bluff pull, etc., but there are quests that allow different approaches already, like Frame Work, Schemes of the Enemy, or Partycrashers (ok, the last one only lets you do a split up version of the end fight beforer the end, but it's still awesome). I'd really like to see more of those.
    Actually, you had two complaints: mob life-locked doors, and the gazing.

    On the first, I said it was quite reasonable to have some doors held shut by living mobs. First, there's plenty that aren't in quests, and it would be entirely expected that some doors are being guarded by mobs until their lives end. If I was paying some low level grunts to guard a door and they let someone open it any evil master worth their salt is going to sacrifice them for some more grunts, and they should know this.

    On the second, I said if your complaint about the gazing was breaking stealth mode, as defined by the "stealth" action, you're missing in nearly its entirety, the vast changes to stealth not of that one single action kind. Before complaining that a quest is broken, why don't you try using all of the abilities at a rogue fingertips, and then tell me whether the quest is broken, or you're just unimaginative and want a one button ghosting solution?

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