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  1. #221
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Well that's not the reason the system is terrible, but it seems to be the perception of others why you're against an improvement of the system. And yes - every single step of a game should be entertainment.
    The question that has been on mens mind since the beginning of EDs is: Is it terribe or not.

    The answer: depends on who you ask.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  2. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Actually, it is. It is because the game expects you to play as the destiny in order to get credit for playing it. No, maybe you're not going to twist anything in Magister, but you need to play through it to get the Fate Point to twist something else somewhere else. This is how it should be. TRing isn't really the point, the point was getting credit for past lives I didn't play as, which would be what getting additional Fate Points for playing in a maxed Destiny would be. They are the same in that they give you credit for doing something you haven't done. In my example, I would get a Ranger past life for playing Arti, or I would be able to max FotW while playing in Magister. How are these not the same thing in principle? If I'm going to grind out an impractical Destiny during a life, I am still always using the optimum enhancements. Let me emphasize this; IF I were going to. I'm simply not going to. I want three Ranger past lives on my arti to fit my play style, and I can play in each of the three Destinys to get the Fate Points, one per each life I plan to take. Now, since the synergy is there for all three, there really isn't a sub-optimal Destiny for Ranger.

    I can unlock the needed Fate Points for the magey tree the same way, all while playing as, you guessed it, an arti. The synergy is there for Arti, so really none of the three is "bad", even if one may or may not be better. I'm going with three Druid lives as well, for the augment to my dog. Now I don't have any experience with Druid, but if, as I suspect, staying shape shifted is primarily melee, I can perhaps take some melee Destinys, if needed, then. Really though, seeing as how I will ultimately be a ranged Arti, with minimal casting, it doesn't fit my play style, I don't really need the fighter PL Feats, so hey, I won't be playing any fighter, and probably won't need to play any of the melee centric Destinys. My pertinent twists will come from either the Rangery or Magey trees, and my build plan means that I'll never have to play in a sub-optimal, or maybe just a "bad" Destiny to get where I want to go.

    Regarding the "work for my entertainment" stance being laid out here, no matter how you do it, leveling up is work. The difference being, when I was working as an automotive technician, I loved my job, and so, I never "worked" a day of the time I spent doing it. When leveling up becomes not fun, I either make an alt, or take a break. It becomes not fun at all levels of play sometimes, and I take a break. It's the burnout factor, and frankly, rather than trudge though something I'm not enjoying, I'll step away from it. This is why my FvS got TRd at 24, I wasn't having any fun, and really saw no point in going the rest of the way to 25 just to do it. I already had my heart, and my Fate Points, so I TRd. The Destiny I didn't finish that life will be finished this life, and be more fitting, since the first life I was ranged, and this one is melee. The third life will also be melee, but ultimately, after that life, and then three ranger lives, I'm going back to my Elven Silver Flame AA FvS. I was TRd out of it prior to the Enhancement pass, so I don't know if I'll be an AA, or an AoV at the end of it all, but I do know that it will be fun to play, either way. I have to lay the groundwork first, but it will be worth it in the long run.
    No - you're comparing apples and oranges.

    I'm not opposed someone defending the current destiny system as the most optimal but I've yet heard anyone doing that. What I hear is a lot of speculation about why some players want to change the system and a defense of how a small benefit from a destiny is good over all of the enjoyment of the experience. What I hear is the tired 'you gotta work first before you can enjoy the reward'.

    Too me work during a TR is the climb of leveling quests - but during that climb I always enjoy the enhancement system that is tailor made for that class. If 'work' equals leveling of sort then I can't understand why you and others would oppose splitting away fate points from destinies, since it would force me to level XP in fate points in order to unlock them in the same equal amount, but at least doing so with a destiny that works with that class. Similar to how it works with a TR and enhancement and class.

    That's an equal amount of work.

    Thanks for sharing btw how you plan to TR your toons and the tactics involved. I'll wait and see how the TR pass shapes out - if they intend to make it worse or actually smart. I am curious about the suggested Epic TR which seems having a character unlock epic TR points for certain passive feat benefits. I hope it doesn't turn out to be a double off destiny grind program - that would be a terrible idea.

  3. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The question that has been on mens mind since the beginning of EDs is: Is it terribe or not.

    The answer: depends on who you ask.
    Not really. I'm sure sleeping on spike mattresses leads to a certain understanding and meaning of life, but that never stopped some of the greatest philosophers from enjoying a good nights sleep and produce some of their greatest work. People who can't fathom improvements and solutions and spend more time arguing about the messenger then the message doesn't really have any good ideas. But that's humanity.

    I'm sure there were some that defended the old Reavers Refuge rune system too.

  4. #224
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It makes no sense whatsoever, from any standpoint, lore or mechanical, that someone should have to commit to a destiny to gain the XP. Thats like telling an arcane archer they have to commit to tempest if they want to spend points in it.

    It also makes no sense that someone should be forced to TR to enjoy the leveling experience. This is coming from someone who likes playing the entire game - but doesnt want to be forced to play an entirely different class on the same character just to level 2 destinies. If I wanted to play a wizard Id have rolled a wizard, or logged on my wizard. If I want to play a rogue, I should be able to choose a destiny, and then gain XP and spend the points how I see fit without the limitation of spending them in the same destiny I am committed to. We already know they can do this, because this is how AP works. You dont need to commit to mechanic to put points into the assassin tree.
    One thing is for sure that a few players will always complain and never be satisfied.

    Now I understand the point your trying to push because it makes sense to you and it is something you want. But when another player says they like the current system you say it makes no sense whatsoever. Well obviously it makes sense to several players, developers, etc... For the record I also like the current system very much. Don't be from that generation that believes there should never be any sacrifices to get to the end game. To use an example a wizard should not be able to wield a greatsword with the same efficiency as a fighter or barbarian, there should be some minuses. No one is required to use the alternate destines but if you want to gain the benefit of unlocking the twists of fate then sometimes there will be a sacrifice.
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  5. #225
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Not really. I'm sure sleeping on spike mattresses leads to a certain understanding and meaning of life, but that never stopped some of the greatest philosophers from enjoying a good nights sleep and produce some of their greatest work. People who can't fathom improvements and solutions and spend more time arguing about the messenger then the message doesn't really have any good ideas. But that's humanity.

    I'm sure there were some that defended the old Reavers Refuge rune system too.
    Im sure there are princesses who can feel the pea under the mattresses in this game as well. (your mommy can tell you that story if you dont know it yet)
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  6. #226
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I'm sure there were some that defended the old Reavers Refuge rune system too.
    If your referring to the original rune system then I have to disagree, I know of no one ever that defended that system. The developer and producer that approved that should have been moved to sweeping the server rooms.
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  7. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Im sure there are princesses who can feel the pea under the mattresses in this game as well. (your mommy can tell you that story if you dont know it yet)
    Going back once more about the messenger vs the message. Seems pretty dead end as far as solution goes, but it seems to be yours and others best arguments.

  8. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    If your referring to the original rune system then I have to disagree, I know of no one ever that defended that system. The developer and producer that approved that should have been moved to sweeping the server rooms.
    Actually there were people who did; I think the argument boiled down to the old tired one - something about pain and work for the pleasure of reward. Same thing about greensteel deconstruct. It would make all their hard work worthless - if people could just deconstruct without sucking it up and do another item, it would destroy their very hard work of face rolling shroud hundreds of times.

    Some people just don't play games as entertainment - it because work. That if they just bleed and sweat it's not rewarding enough for them to get what they're fighting for in the end. Personally I go for the challenge - not the mindless grind. Some confuse them both - some actually see the mindless grind as the challenge, as suppose to going away from an event with pounding heart because it was exhilarating, fun and tough.
    Last edited by patang01; 09-14-2013 at 03:28 PM.

  9. #229
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Some players Do want to earn what they have, others want to have what they havent earned. And all the things i between. And neither will ever accept the other point of view, so this discussion is rather pointless.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  10. #230
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Going back once more about the messenger vs the message. Seems pretty dead end as far as solution goes, but it seems to be yours and others best arguments.
    You are not the best mesenger yourself, you know.

    What you see as an improvement seems like sheer greed and folly to me. Thus you claiming that i cant see improvement where you claim it to be is foolish to say the least.

    You wish for the game to reward you for doing nothing, and tell me thats more fun. And claiming the way i see playing the game to be work. The whole point is that i dont see it as work, and cant understand why you complain about it being work.

    To clarify: getting all the rewards for doing an off destiny without actually taing the hit for doing it is wanting a reward you havent earned.

    That you feel you MUST have it makes you strive to get it, bt since you must do something you dont want to do to get it, you ask for it to be given free of charge. The cost you wish to evade is actually playing your way through that destiny.

    Ok, i can understand that you dont want to "gimp" your toon, since you want to get the twists and other EDs to make your toon more powerful. But that doesnt make make me understand why you wish to be granted that power for free.

    And all your arguments are, more or less, on the line of: since you disagree with my great idea, you must be wrong. My great idea is the greatest, after all.

    My main argument is always tanstaafl
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  11. #231

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    The obvious solution is to decouple fate point xp from destiny xp. There is no reason for them to be connected, just like there is no reason for destiny level xp to be connected to epic level xp.

    If you want to actually twist in an ability, then yeah, you have to traverse the map and unlock/upgrade that ability before you can twist it in. I see no possible argument against this.

    But if you just want fate points to upgrade twist slots, there is zero reason you need to do this in an off-destiny. Decouple fate point xp and make it a third xp bar. We have 2 epic xp bars now, 1 for level and 1 destiny. A third for fate points is the right solution.

  12. #232
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    Frankly I dont feel everyone is just suppose to have top fate points, fate point earning like anything else is a choice you make with your build, if you feel your build is too gimp prior to ED and where depending on ED abilities to be a real build, then clearly the current anger towards the system makes sense. However if your build was viable in epic content prior to the lvl 25 cap increase and EDs being added, then ED power is simply complimentary either slightly or greatly depending on your build. If having all fate points is something YOU NEED, and thus all the optional power potential ED represent( as we must keep in mind ED are optional and content is not suppose to be balanced towards them no differently then PLs where suppose to be used as a factor in game challenge development) then as with any thing else its YOUR BUILD that you need to alter. If you want to have no off destiny while leveling them all then make a build that will never feel gimped by a given destiny but instead complimented in a different way. As others have mentioned some classes like artificer are so inherently diverse and flexible that few destiny's really are a struggle for them to work through.

  13. #233

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    I see nothing in that wall of text that supports the idea that fate points should be tied to destiny levels. There is no justification for it in the game or in this thread.

  14. #234
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    You are not the best mesenger yourself, you know.

    What you see as an improvement seems like sheer greed and folly to me. Thus you claiming that i cant see improvement where you claim it to be is foolish to say the least.

    You wish for the game to reward you for doing nothing, and tell me thats more fun. And claiming the way i see playing the game to be work. The whole point is that i dont see it as work, and cant understand why you complain about it being work.

    To clarify: getting all the rewards for doing an off destiny without actually taing the hit for doing it is wanting a reward you havent earned.

    That you feel you MUST have it makes you strive to get it, bt since you must do something you dont want to do to get it, you ask for it to be given free of charge. The cost you wish to evade is actually playing your way through that destiny.

    Ok, i can understand that you dont want to "gimp" your toon, since you want to get the twists and other EDs to make your toon more powerful. But that doesnt make make me understand why you wish to be granted that power for free.

    And all your arguments are, more or less, on the line of: since you disagree with my great idea, you must be wrong. My great idea is the greatest, after all.

    My main argument is always tanstaafl
    I'm just about done with my Destiny leveling so I really don't care. But if the XP required is still the same, how is it a "free lunch"?

    As it is, people just play easier content when they are in off-destinies. Sure, I suppose there could be more "challenge" to it, but really if you PUG, joining an EE quest in an off-destiny, which generally just leads to greater resource consumption, is seen as quite rude by the majority of the playerbase.

    So if the XP requirements are the same how is it a "free lunch"? What is the intrinsic importance of playing in a Destiny that offers your build little to no benefit so that you can earn Fate points?

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The question that has been on mens mind since the beginning of EDs is: Is it terribe or not.

    The answer: depends on who you ask.
    The simple truth is there is no perfect system. There are simply too many playstyles, to many different opinions of what is fun. My definition may differ from yours, and both of ours may differ theirs, none of which matches his and all of fall short of hers'. For every argument of why something is bad, somebody else may use those exact arguments to support why it's good: "I don't like clams; the taste and texture is awful." "I love clams; the taste and texture is exquisite." It's all eye of the beholder stuff.

    For some people the journey to maximum character power is what's fun. For others, achieving maximum is fun and the journey is just something to get over with as quickly as possible. Until you can nail down a universally 100% unanimously agreed upon definition of what is "fun" this entire debate is nothing but a wild goose chasing it's tail.

    However, much like the monkey with a hand grenade it's been entertaining watching it happen. Please continue...
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  16. #236
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Let's also remember that it is a system that is "supposed" to be used. Part of the reason for playing in Epic levels is to gain Fate Points. It is something I think the Devs intended for people to continue to do. I really don't understand why a Fighter "should" have to play through Magister and Draconic to earn those Fate points.

    Personally, I think it was an oversight on the Dev's part. Because they could have made it an equal amount of "work" to earn the required XP, and thus take roughly the same amount of time, but they didn't need to make you constantly take steps backwards to do it, in my opinion. It doesn't make sense to me that you build a character to handle a certain level of gameplay and that you then "pause" him and play at lower levels of gameplay so that you can earn Fate points.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Actually there were people who did; I think the argument boiled down to the old tired one - something about pain and work for the pleasure of reward. Same thing about greensteel deconstruct. It would make all their hard work worthless - if people could just deconstruct without sucking it up and do another item, it would destroy their very hard work of face rolling shroud hundreds of times.

    Some people just don't play games as entertainment - it because work. That if they just bleed and sweat it's not rewarding enough for them to get what they're fighting for in the end. Personally I go for the challenge - not the mindless grind. Some confuse them both - some actually see the mindless grind as the challenge, as suppose to going away from an event with pounding heart because it was exhilarating, fun and tough.
    This is about how it is.

    Players have become so used to the time sinks developers use that they think that's the point of the game. Some "serious" players seem to believe massive time sinks are the best way to separate those casual posers who are just here to have some fun from the "serious" players who believe the game is a sort of lifestyle choice and one must pay their dues to join the ranks of the real DDOers. Their character(s) are more status symbols of where they stand in that community than they are their bridge to the game world and that status is gained, not through how well they are played, but how much grind they have endured.

    The real complaint here is that if Turbine made the process fun for the masses, they no longer would be the special little snowflakes that were willing to jump through all the right silly little hoops to attain that status. You see pretty much the same thing from the DDO PhD's every time some needless complexity gets simplified so that any idiot can understand the mechanics of the game. Just look at the uproar changing 2d4 to 2-8 caused, all because some felt players should be versed in the lore of D&D terminology to be able to understand how the game works, because secret languages are a great way to separate the dedicated from the posters (Latin has a history of being used like this).

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    So how does eating the manure before drinking the beer, rather than the other way around, change the fact we are eating manure? Sure it may wash the bad taste out of our mouths that way, but still...
    I am not sure which actually tastes worse, but I am getting off topic.

    Players are free to request a change in the game that involves less manure eating all they want. But as long as eating manure and drinking beer are both a significant part of the game using sound judgment when it comes to the order to perform these activities can make for much happier players. Single player games are all about having fun. MMO's have always sacrificed fun in order to create a sense of accomplishment. I have never encountered an MMO that did not involve playing certain parts of the game past the point they were fun in order to make the game take longer. This is not a new concept. We all understand how MMO's work and that sometimes we have to do things we don't particularly want to do in order to get the results that we are looking for. This is one of those times. And while it always is a fine idea to request the developers make changes, in the meantime we need to learn to play the game we have in the most enjoyable way possible. That is what my post was about. Eating manure may be a terrible part of the game, but if you drink all of your beer before taking your first nibble of manure, it will be hard to get the manure down and the taste will linger in your mouth for a very long time. That's probably why so few people argued with my post. You can't fight sound logic (well you can, but you usually look foolish doing it).
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Some players Do want to earn what they have, others want to have what they havent earned. And all the things i between. And neither will ever accept the other point of view, so this discussion is rather pointless.
    I have yet to see anyone say the game should just auto-grant twists. Everyone here agrees they should have to be earned.

    The issue is some feel if earning it doesn't involve sacrifice (mostly of fun) it's not really earning it. My theory is that some here prefer a system that pretty much eliminates in-game challenge from the process and shifts it to how much naked grind can be endured because that's what they are good at and they want that elite status. I have no problem putting in the time to earn it. I just don't see the point of doing it in the epic equivalent of Khorthos.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    That you feel you MUST have it makes you strive to get it, bt since you must do something you dont want to do to get it, you ask for it to be given free of charge.
    Except nobody is asking for anything to be given free of charge, they are asking for a method of doing it that involves doing something they want to do.

    I will say that if players are being asked to do something they don't want to do in a game someone is hoping to make a profit off of, there is a problem with the game. There is a very good reason TRing and completionist are not game requirements in DDO. It's because the devs are a lot less interested in finding out who are the most well rounded and compliant players than they are in having making money. So allowing for as many ways of playing as possible is a much better plan.

    What I see here is someone saying they feel everyone should have to earn things the way they find fun, rather than everyone should have the option of earning things in a way they have fun. That or fun should have to be earned in the game, which begs the question; whats the motivation to play in the first place? Or that we should have to find ways to make the game fun, which leads me to wonder; what exactly are we paying Turbine for in that case? I can go to a movie and have fun without having to clean the bathrooms first and I can find my own ways of having fun, actually more easily, without paying Turbine for a venue in which to do it.

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