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  1. #181
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No problem, but why must it be in a way that isn't as fun as it could be? I mean I've earned money working on a factory production like as well as in many much more satisfying (and yes often fun) jobs and given the choice, I wouldn't go the production line rout. But it seems Turbine thinks that's the choice their players want, so that's what they are selling us.

    It isn't even a case of catering to the lowest common denominater here as the requested changes would only add options, not change them. So those who feel they have to do things the current way to have earned them could still do so without making those of us who don't agree do so also.
    While we're at it, could I please get my ranger past lives while I'm leveling as an artificer, or vice versa? This is, after all, what is being requested. The ability to level up as Destiny X while playing Destiny Y. "But Rob, we only want the Fate Point credit", which comes from reaching milestones in each Destiny. It boils down to my opening question, getting credit for a past life that I didn't play because grinding out all the past lives I want for my character is boring, I mean, I have to play the same quests over and over ad nauseum, some lives completely gimped compared to what I'm used to, to get the [st]fate points[/st] past life feats I want. I mean, how dare Turbine actually expect me to play as something to get credit for playing as something, right? It's just not as fun as it could be...

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Your problem is mainly one of attitude towards the work you have to do. You wish to have the endresult without going through the intermediary steps. I really cant blame you for it, but... well... The intermediary steps must be taken. Thats the way it goes in almost every thing (except premade meals, although you have to make the money for it)
    I am going through the intermediary steps with my method of earning the xp for my main ED and anything I want to twist, then using as much of that as I can to earn xp to fit the rest in. You on the other hand want to go through the intermediary steps then forget you did until you are done for the most part.

    I really don't understand why anyone would want to earn fate points this way rather than taking what you got from leveling an ED and going on from there. I don't get the fascination with going from A to B to A to C to A to D etc. treading water in easy content just to have nowhere to go once you put it all together at the end. Why is it necessary to avoid having fun to succeed at a game? Personally I see that as a problem with the game since having fun is the whole point, not seeing how much hoop jumping one can endure.

  3. #183
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    While we're at it, could I please get my ranger past lives while I'm leveling as an artificer, or vice versa? This is, after all, what is being requested. The ability to level up as Destiny X while playing Destiny Y. "But Rob, we only want the Fate Point credit", which comes from reaching milestones in each Destiny. It boils down to my opening question, getting credit for a past life that I didn't play because grinding out all the past lives I want for my character is boring, I mean, I have to play the same quests over and over ad nauseum, some lives completely gimped compared to what I'm used to, to get the [st]fate points[/st] past life feats I want. I mean, how dare Turbine actually expect me to play as something to get credit for playing as something, right? It's just not as fun as it could be...
    I take your point.

    Having said that, I think Past Life benefits and Twist of Fate benefits are like comparing easter eggs and enormous 4000 ton chocolate bunnies that could feed Africa indefinitely.

    Ranged characters:
    Probably want to be in fury. But need Pin and Otto's Whistler; a level 3 and 2 twist. That's a whole lot of plodding around the destiny map.

    Melee dps characters:
    Either want to be in fury or dreadnaught. But need either legendary tactics or sense weakness from the corresponding tree (as well as cocoon).

    Casters:
    Want Energy Burst if in magister/shiradi, and +3 DCs from magister if in draconic. And spell pen from draconic and fatesinger's Echoes if primarily in magister.

    The differences between those characters with and without twists is so large I consider those abilities basically obligatory to get at some point if you want to meaningfully finish your character. Past lives not so much.
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Do you mean as a player or the character? Because don't see either. As a player one is more likely to just grind out what they can while pretending they have no destiny, playing easy content isn't how you get better. As for the character, most of those skills are just going to be locked out as soon as you hit level 5 and move on, if one even bothers to set the points in the first place.
    You sir, just like to complain. Those same people that leveled their off destinies via the path of least resistance probably leveled their main destinies in the same fashion. If you want a challenge whether your in a main destiny or off destiny there are a ton of quests with variable difficulty settings, you can play things at an appropriate challenge level regardless of what your destiny is. But please...keep grasping at straws, if the devs actually bother reading this post it just becomes more and more obvious what a joke this thread is, and how fate points are fine the way they are.

  5. #185
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I take your point.

    Having said that, I think Past Life benefits and Twist of Fate benefits are like comparing easter eggs and enormous 4000 ton chocolate bunnies that could feed Africa indefinitely.

    Ranged characters:
    Probably want to be in fury. But need Pin and Otto's Whistler; a level 3 and 2 twist. That's a whole lot of plodding around the destiny map.

    Melee dps characters:
    Either want to be in fury or dreadnaught. But need either legendary tactics or sense weakness from the corresponding tree (as well as cocoon).

    Casters:
    Want Energy Burst if in magister/shiradi, and +3 DCs from magister if in draconic. And spell pen from draconic and fatesinger's Echoes if primarily in magister.

    The differences between those characters with and without twists is so large I consider those abilities basically obligatory to get at some point if you want to meaningfully finish your character. Past lives not so much.
    ...and if I want them, I should earn them, just like my past lives. It doesn't seem like much, but +6 damage(ranged) and +6 universal elemental resistance is also pretty good, and what you get from 3 ranger past lives. These are, after all, passive bonuses, I get the feats automatically upon completion of the life they apply to. If this is WAI, then how is requesting getting credit for something you didn't do kosher? Because, in the end, it's not easter eggs to giant chocolate rabbits,(and if there really is one of these, please don't tell my GF, or I'll have to go buy one), it's more like red apples to green apples. They're different on the surface, but basically the same.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    While we're at it, could I please get my ranger past lives while I'm leveling as an artificer, or vice versa? This is, after all, what is being requested. The ability to level up as Destiny X while playing Destiny Y. "But Rob, we only want the Fate Point credit", which comes from reaching milestones in each Destiny. It boils down to my opening question, getting credit for a past life that I didn't play because grinding out all the past lives I want for my character is boring, I mean, I have to play the same quests over and over ad nauseum, some lives completely gimped compared to what I'm used to, to get the [st]fate points[/st] past life feats I want. I mean, how dare Turbine actually expect me to play as something to get credit for playing as something, right? It's just not as fun as it could be...
    I'm sorry if you think putting up with boring repetitive grind is something that is acceptable for us to expect from someone who want's us to pay for the privilege to put up with it. I don't. Personally I have little problem ignoring the whole Tr thing so wont even comment on that. But the ED system is something that actually appeals to me as I don't have to delete a character to participate in it and could actually be used to provide something of an end game (rather than it's current functionality in delaying characters from advancing to the lack of an end game). So this I'm commenting on.

    Feel free to disagree with me, but don't think that just because everyone else thinks banging their head into a brick wall is a good idea, I'll be swayed by their numbers into agreeing.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I take your point.

    Having said that, I think Past Life benefits and Twist of Fate benefits are like comparing easter eggs and enormous 4000 ton chocolate bunnies that could feed Africa indefinitely.

    Ranged characters:
    Probably want to be in fury. But need Pin and Otto's Whistler; a level 3 and 2 twist. That's a whole lot of plodding around the destiny map.

    Melee dps characters:
    Either want to be in fury or dreadnaught. But need either legendary tactics or sense weakness from the corresponding tree (as well as cocoon).

    Casters:
    Want Energy Burst if in magister/shiradi, and +3 DCs from magister if in draconic. And spell pen from draconic and fatesinger's Echoes if primarily in magister.

    The differences between those characters with and without twists is so large I consider those abilities basically obligatory to get at some point if you want to meaningfully finish your character. Past lives not so much.
    Past life bonuses are still pretty awesome, considering they stack with everything else and are essentially free once you've unlocked them. For example, you list legendary tactics as something great for melees. +6 dcs. You can get +3 from fighter past lives. If you go the completionist route +4, as you'd get another from the +2 str. Sure its a lot of playing to get that far, but I don't see how you could say you need that +6 dc bonus to meaningfully finish your character, but that +4 you could get off past life bonuses is negligible.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I'm sorry if you think putting up with boring repetitive grind is something that is acceptable for us to expect from someone who want's us to pay for the privilege to put up with it. I don't. Personally I have little problem ignoring the whole Tr thing so wont even comment on that. But the ED system is something that actually appeals to me as I don't have to delete a character to participate in it and could actually be used to provide something of an end game (rather than it's current functionality in delaying characters from advancing to the lack of an end game). So this I'm commenting on.

    Feel free to disagree with me, but don't think that just because everyone else thinks banging their head into a brick wall is a good idea, I'll be swayed by their numbers into agreeing.
    Wouldn't playing every destiny for a little while actually be less repetitive then only playing one destiny?

  9. #189
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I'm sorry if you think putting up with boring repetitive grind is something that is acceptable for us to expect from someone who want's us to pay for the privilege to put up with it. I don't. Personally I have little problem ignoring the whole Tr thing so wont even comment on that. But the ED system is something that actually appeals to me as I don't have to delete a character to participate in it and could actually be used to provide something of an end game (rather than it's current functionality in delaying characters from advancing to the lack of an end game). So this I'm commenting on.

    Feel free to disagree with me, but don't think that just because everyone else thinks banging their head into a brick wall is a good idea, I'll be swayed by their numbers into agreeing.
    Then you'll never be satisfied, because no matter what you do, or how they ultimately set it up, you're going to have to bang your head into that brick wall leveling for Fate Points, even if it's in a Destiny you enjoy. You see, what I see happening is Turbine caves, and allows you to generate Fate Points while in a capped Destiny, and then people will complain that it takes too long to get the fate points that way too, and start asking to either a) get them automatically, or b) reduce the requirements for them. What you're not seeming to understand is that no matter what, you're going to have to run those quests over and over and over to achieve what you're trying to achieve, because they're not going to hand them to you on a silver platter, and they shouldn't. If you want it, you should earn it.

  10. #190
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I am going through the intermediary steps with my method of earning the xp for my main ED and anything I want to twist, then using as much of that as I can to earn xp to fit the rest in. You on the other hand want to go through the intermediary steps then forget you did until you are done for the most part.

    I really don't understand why anyone would want to earn fate points this way rather than taking what you got from leveling an ED and going on from there. I don't get the fascination with going from A to B to A to C to A to D etc. treading water in easy content just to have nowhere to go once you put it all together at the end. Why is it necessary to avoid having fun to succeed at a game? Personally I see that as a problem with the game since having fun is the whole point, not seeing how much hoop jumping one can endure.
    You really dont understand, i see. Its a matter of knowing tanstaafl or not knowing it.
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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Well...this pretty much sums it up that you just want an easy button. You don't tr because its a lot of input for a little bit out output. However...fate points by comparison would be a lot of input for a lot of output, and that's still not good enough for you. You want them to make fate points a little bit of input for a lot of output.
    No just as much input, just not relegated to doing it in the easy content the lack of a viable ED put's us most of the time. With the option to still earn them while doing all the destinies if that's what one chooses as the xp for each would be earned simultaneously much like that for epic levels is. Really, it's the same time sink either way. It's really not even what I would consider an easy button as EN and even EH without a decent destiny is still easier than EE with them, which really isn't an option otherwise, and even those who still do EN and EH despite having them are just going from auto-complete to auto-completer.

    Oh and I don't TR because it's very much like the current ED system, nothing but an auto-complete time sink that I don't see as worth wasting my time on for what it gives me. Spending a month of game time auto-completing quest on a character I really aren't excited about playing in the first place just so I can eventually have 10 more hp's and possibly 2 more creation points or the like just isn't worth my time in the eyes of the only one who's opinion on the matter counts, much less being worth supporting the company that thinks it is.

    All I'm doing here is trying to get Turbine to tweak the game in a way that it actually remains interesting enough for me to keep playing. Wasting time on a character that mechanics leave without good play options just isn't cutting it for me. I'm sorry if that offends you in some way. I'm also sorry if my desire to take the easy button rout of playing EE on a compatible destiny for xp rather than facing the challenge of staying awake in EN on an incompatible destiny also does. But doing so with out gaining xp leaves little in the way as an incentive to come back after having completed it.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Its like I already said. If ee on your main destiny is a challenge, and eh on an off destiny is a challenge...why is it you can have fun playing ee but not eh.
    Because staying alive and completing is a different sort of challenge than staying awake (though at this point that may not even be required to complete...solo.). EH was little challenge the day it was introduced despite nobody having ED's and practice hasn't helped the situation. EE, even on a good destiny, is more than just possible to actually fail at, at least for me.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    ...and if I want them, I should earn them, just like my past lives. It doesn't seem like much, but +6 damage(ranged) and +6 universal elemental resistance is also pretty good, and what you get from 3 ranger past lives. These are, after all, passive bonuses, I get the feats automatically upon completion of the life they apply to. If this is WAI, then how is requesting getting credit for something you didn't do kosher? Because, in the end, it's not easter eggs to giant chocolate rabbits,(and if there really is one of these, please don't tell my GF, or I'll have to go buy one), it's more like red apples to green apples. They're different on the surface, but basically the same.
    Well if you think they should be like PLFs and you should get them as soon as you finish that destiny, I'd be all for it. No more doing all those worthless destinies in order to get fate points, just do the one's you want twists from and slot them as soon as you finish it.

  14. #194
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Because staying alive and completing is a different sort of challenge than staying awake (though at this point that may not even be required to complete...solo.). EH was little challenge the day it was introduced despite nobody having ED's and practice hasn't helped the situation. EE, even on a good destiny, is more than just possible to actually fail at, at least for me.
    If you really want the challenge do EE on an off destiny.
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  15. #195
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The easy button is this: (to use working life as an example) You have been employed in project X, and when it is finished, you wish to get paid for project Y while still puttering away at your finished project.

    I know that not being able to do this may feel unfair, after all you sacrificed quite a lot of effort to get the project done, but now you would have to start from scratch. But it just isnt good practice, im afraid.
    A much better analogy would be: You spend years mastering the skill set for a particular job that you very much enjoy doing, and then your company tells you if you want a "promotion" it will be a job that requires a different skill set (that you don't have), pays less, involves longer hours, and is not any fun to do. When you ask why on earth you would take a "promotion" like that, they tell you that if you muddle through that bad job for long enough, maybe someday you'll be promoted again into another job that involves a skill set you don't have and which pays less, requires longer hours, and isn't any fun to do.

    Yay! Promotions! Yay! Epic levels!
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  16. #196
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    A much better analogy would be: You spend years mastering the skill set for a particular job that you very much enjoy doing, and then your company tells you if you want a "promotion" it will be a job that requires a different skill set (that you don't have), pays less, involves longer hours, and is not any fun to do. When you ask why on earth you would take a "promotion" like that, they tell you that if you muddle through that bad job for long enough, maybe someday you'll be promoted again into another job that involves a skill set you don't have and which pays less, requires longer hours, and isn't any fun to do.

    Yay! Promotions! Yay! Epic levels!
    More like spending a few hours rushing around, declaring yourself a master, then getting greedy and wanting a promotion with no training for the job.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  17. #197
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    More like spending a few hours rushing around, declaring yourself a master, then getting greedy and wanting a promotion with no training for the job.
    No training? So when you run all those quests and accumulate all that XP, you're not really doing anything?


    I think it's more like choosing something you like, doing it for a long time, and then being told you need to switch to something else for which you have little aptitude or interest if you ever want to advance.

    I don't see how anyone can think that if you max your "good" ED and then continue questing (in the ED that works best for your character) that getting something for that is the same as getting something for nothing. And I'm not talking about the few HP or SP or skill points you get for advancing in character level; those increases are so small as to be nearly inconsequential. "Advancement" in epic levels is advancement in Epic Destinies, and forcing playing who wish to keep advancing to gimp themselves and give up most or all of their "epic" powers is, in my opinion, a poor design.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  18. #198
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    No training? So when you run all those quests and accumulate all that XP, you're not really doing anything?


    I think it's more like choosing something you like, doing it for a long time, and then being told you need to switch to something else for which you have little aptitude or interest if you ever want to advance.

    I don't see how anyone can think that if you max your "good" ED and then continue questing (in the ED that works best for your character) that getting something for that is the same as getting something for nothing. And I'm not talking about the few HP or SP or skill points you get for advancing in character level; those increases are so small as to be nearly inconsequential. "Advancement" in epic levels is advancement in Epic Destinies, and forcing playing who wish to keep advancing to gimp themselves and give up most or all of their "epic" powers is, in my opinion, a poor design.
    Youre used to doing something at an optimum, and when you work at optimum you learn little (comparatively). That is why the non-optimums feel so awful.

    Its like applying for a new job after enjoying your old job, and then complaining that you have to learn the skills needed for it.
    Last edited by bartharok; 09-13-2013 at 08:04 AM. Reason: foolish analogy
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  19. #199
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Youre used to doing something at an optimum, and when you work at optimum you learn little (comparatively). That is why the non-optimums feel so awful.

    Its like applying for a new job after enjoying your old job, and then complaining that you have to learn the skills needed for it.
    It's more like enjoying your current job, but being told that if you ever want to advance in your current job, you need to take a new job with a different skill set for less money and longer hours, and which is much less fun.

    It's a bit like if you started a wizard at level one. At level two, you weren't allowed to use any spells, but at level 3 you got new spells and you could use them all. At level four you lose all your spells again, but at level five you get new spells and can use all your spells. And so on... If someone is playing a wizard, they probably want to cast spells, not muddle through every other heroic level using Master's Touch and swinging a greataxe, though that is possible for some people to do. Would it sound reasonable to tell someone in that situation, "Sure, level two will suck and not be fun, but then you get more powerful at level three, so that's great! Level four sucks and isn't any fun, but when you get to level five you'll be more powerful and have fun! If you don't like the game design, no one is forcing you to do it; just stay at level one for your whole career."
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  20. #200
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    It's more like enjoying your current job, but being told that if you ever want to advance in your current job, you need to take a new job with a different skill set for less money and longer hours, and which is much less fun.

    It's a bit like if you started a wizard at level one. At level two, you weren't allowed to use any spells, but at level 3 you got new spells and you could use them all. At level four you lose all your spells again, but at level five you get new spells and can use all your spells. And so on... If someone is playing a wizard, they probably want to cast spells, not muddle through every other heroic level using Master's Touch and swinging a greataxe, though that is possible for some people to do. Would it sound reasonable to tell someone in that situation, "Sure, level two will suck and not be fun, but then you get more powerful at level three, so that's great! Level four sucks and isn't any fun, but when you get to level five you'll be more powerful and have fun! If you don't like the game design, no one is forcing you to do it; just stay at level one for your whole career."
    More like you wanting a raise and refusing the extra responsibilities that come with it. It would be reasonable to accept the fact of tanstaafl.

    Your example goes a bit far, its more like alternating with a +x hit/damage and very powerful spells. Sometimes it pays to slug it out and sometimes cast.

    You got to adapt your playstyle to fit the ED youre in. Sometimes you wont be quite as powerful, but i find it fun to figure out how to best use what you got. Granted, not everyone find it as much fun. Some people find doing the same thing the best way to go, and if in a off-ED youll really take a hit in effectiveness if you do so.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

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