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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Game, set, and match.

    Some people can't handle more than repetitive lame play. These are the people who couldn't hack it at end-game so instead TR 30 times. They also only play 1-2 toons and have all the time in the world to trudge through mediocrity.

    If ANY game mechanic encourages lame and repetitive play it needs to be changed.
    What's so great about end game that people should even want to get there? Its pathetic how many threads are on the forums that are just people complaining end game is boring. TR people vs people who want to hit level cap and never leave....are the tr players the mediocre ones...or just the ones smart enough to realize how pointless end game is? I'm gonna go play through all the games content and pick up another past life bonus for it while you run the same handful of quests over and over and over and over trying to get the latest best gear even though 3/4 of it will probably be second rate come next update anyhow. Have fun!

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    IF you choose to shoot yourself in the leg in order to collect insurance, you are not being mistreated because you cant get it without shooting yourself. Youre just being greedy.

    If you need all the twists and EDs you should work for them. Kind of like you cant go on a coffeebreak for the rest of the day if youve already worked two hours.

    If you choose to grind rusted blades its your choice, i am not in a rush to get to the top, i like to watch the scenery.
    Haha, couldn't agree more. I just don't get these people. Its easy enough already to level off destinies, just gotta run in en/eh. Oh god the world's going to end some class/destiny combos aren't ee worthy. Does it really make the game go from being fun playing in epic elite on your preferred destiny to torture if you have to tone the difficulty level down a notch to level an off destiny? Difficulty is a relative thing. If ee on your preferred destiny is just the right challenge level for you to be fun, yet you can't hang in ee on and off destiny...wouldn't eh on your off destiny be a good challenge level?

    But I suppose I only look at it that way because I'm enjoying the journey as well and not focused on getting to the top as fast as possible either. I haven't ground a single point of destiny xp. Destiny xp has just been something that's been getting thrown my way while I've been enjoying the game.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    So let me ask you then, why is it the tr system never forced people to not want to play like you are claiming ed's do? If people thought tr'ing was too much effort...they just didn't do it. You also had your crowd that would only do a couple tr's just to max their build points at creation. Then you had the crowd that would go for 3x tr's only in a couple classes relevant to their final life build, and finally you had the fanatics that were willing to tr til their eyes bled and get completionist and a whole bunch of 3x lives to make their toon as uber as possible.

    When I look at ed's, its the exact same way. If you think its a ridiculous over the top grind just max your main ed and don't worry about it. You could make alts and try different destinies on different alts...ya know...its the exact same thing a lot of people who didn't like to tr have been doing for a long time, variety of trying to make one or two as perfect as you can get. If you want to get some fate points but don't really want to grind a lot...just do a few destinies that are fun for your build. If you want to be uber and go all in, then go for it.
    Apples and oranges IMO. TRing is just a fancy way of saying re-rolling. ED's are continuing to play the same character in more than just name and inventory.

    The fact of the matter is that I don't TR unless I want to reroll a character I no longer play. But I do want something that resembles an end game. A reason to keep playing a character that is otherwise finished. Twists seem like they could do that, except that the mechanics involved actually make you step back from end game so one is forced to choose between playing that all but polished character or playing something less in order to polish it. Except neither choice makes much sense as the first means you really aren't accomplishing really accomplishing anything and the second means you are not playing the full character you have spent so much time working on and what you are doing is rather pointless as once you put everything together there's nothing left to accomplish with it.

    It's my contention that it makes more sense to earn those fate points and gain that little extra on an all but polished character mostly to give players something somewhat meaningful to do with that character. I really don't understand why anyone would want to not play it at that point.

    Answer me that. Why don't you want a reason to play with a finished ED?

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I (as people might have noticed) dont like easybuttons, and what youre asking for is one.
    Yes, yes i know its not because its hard, but boring, but its a easybutton none the less.

    If you REALLY hate grinding out the destinies, dont.
    No, I really hate the fact that once you finish your chosen ED, the game gives no real reason to ever use it. That's what bothers me most. The game pats you on the head and says "good job, now if you want to accomplish anything else don't use what you just earned".

    Why is actually using what you just earned an easy button? By that logic we should all earn all our xp as level 1 rank 1 characters on Khorthos and just get everything at the end because to actually gain ranks and levels in the process is using an easy button.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No, I really hate the fact that once you finish your chosen ED, the game gives no real reason to ever use it. That's what bothers me most. The game pats you on the head and says "good job, now if you want to accomplish anything else don't use what you just earned".

    Why is actually using what you just earned an easy button? By that logic we should all earn all our xp as level 1 rank 1 characters on Khorthos and just get everything at the end because to actually gain ranks and levels in the process is using an easy button.
    The easy button is this: (to use working life as an example) You have been employed in project X, and when it is finished, you wish to get paid for project Y while still puttering away at your finished project.

    I know that not being able to do this may feel unfair, after all you sacrificed quite a lot of effort to get the project done, but now you would have to start from scratch. But it just isnt good practice, im afraid.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    But I suppose I only look at it that way because I'm enjoying the journey as well and not focused on getting to the top as fast as possible either. I haven't ground a single point of destiny xp. Destiny xp has just been something that's been getting thrown my way while I've been enjoying the game.
    I'm guessing from your position on this issue that anyone who enjoys the game differently than you is enjoying it wrong then. Because for me to collect destiny xp while just enjoying the game, which is my goal, would mean progressing linearly, not regressing and playing some watered down version of my characters for most of the process. Use level 1 to get level 2, use level 2 to get level 3...right on up to use my ED for the long slow process of gaining my fate points and twist in those things I took the time to earn.

    I find it rather hard to enjoy the journey when the only paths are taking me to places I have no real reason to want to go.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Apples and oranges IMO. TRing is just a fancy way of saying re-rolling. ED's are continuing to play the same character in more than just name and inventory.
    I love how you try to re-define tr'ing. If TR was just a fancy way to say to say re-rolling nobody would do it. TR is exactly what you describe ED's as...a way to continue playing the same character. People don't tr a toon xx times and re-level with higher xp requirements then a first life toon because they keep messing up their build...they do it because they get a little more powerful each life. No wonder you don't tr and don't recognize how very similar collecting past life feats is to collecting fate points...you don't even understand tr'ing lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The fact of the matter is that I don't TR unless I want to reroll a character I no longer play. But I do want something that resembles an end game. A reason to keep playing a character that is otherwise finished. Twists seem like they could do that, except that the mechanics involved actually make you step back from end game so one is forced to choose between playing that all but polished character or playing something less in order to polish it. Except neither choice makes much sense as the first means you really aren't accomplishing really accomplishing anything and the second means you are not playing the full character you have spent so much time working on and what you are doing is rather pointless as once you put everything together there's nothing left to accomplish with it.
    Because if you want the bonus from (insert random destiny here) you should have to play that destiny. Is that too complicated of a concept for you to grasp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It's my contention that it makes more sense to earn those fate points and gain that little extra on an all but polished character mostly to give players something somewhat meaningful to do with that character. I really don't understand why anyone would want to not play it at that point.

    Answer me that. Why don't you want a reason to play with a finished ED?
    The thing is...there is only one reason not to play a finished ED. That is because you want a finished ED on steroids, which is what it becomes when you have full fate points/twists. At that point it then turns back into my previous answer for you. If you want the extra fate points and skills to twist from a specific destiny...you should have to actually play that destiny to unlock the bonuses it offers.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No, I really hate the fact that once you finish your chosen ED, the game gives no real reason to ever use it. That's what bothers me most. The game pats you on the head and says "good job, now if you want to accomplish anything else don't use what you just earned".

    Why is actually using what you just earned an easy button? By that logic we should all earn all our xp as level 1 rank 1 characters on Khorthos and just get everything at the end because to actually gain ranks and levels in the process is using an easy button.
    So use your level 5 destiny and never leave it. Its not like when you cap a destiny the game kicks you out of it and you can go back to it until you unlock everything.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The easy button is this: (to use working life as an example) You have been employed in project X, and when it is finished, you wish to get paid for project Y while still puttering away at your finished project.
    Lets try to make that example more accurate. Lets say you are employed in project X, say building houses, and you build an awesome house. Truly awesome. You get paid for the project, and try to get a new job Y. But, not only you won't be building houses, but you will be forbidden to use any of the experties learned in project X. Instead of continuing in what you're good at, and maybe learning a bit of this and that on the side, maybe wiring or plumbing or whatnot, you must pick a totally new profession and learn that from scratch. Thus, project Y will be, say, telemarketing.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The easy button is this: (to use working life as an example) You have been employed in project X, and when it is finished, you wish to get paid for project Y while still puttering away at your finished project.

    I know that not being able to do this may feel unfair, after all you sacrificed quite a lot of effort to get the project done, but now you would have to start from scratch. But it just isnt good practice, im afraid.
    Except, I'm not being hired to complete project X. I'm being asked to choose to do so and despite how much I like project X the process involves never really having a reason to have it. Soon as I get the lions share done, I'm told I have to do projects A-J, which in themselves do very little for me, to complete it without never really getting a chance to enjoy it. By the time that's done, there's nothing more to do. If I were being hired to do project X I could care less what whoever hired me to do it does with it as long as I get paid, so poor example.

    I have no problem with having to dabel in other destinies to actually earn anything one may want to twist in. But it seems ludicrous to not be able to actually use that ED you have already earned to grind out the fate point xp. The fate point mechanics in place actually seem like something the devs put in place just to see how stupid we are.

    But I think you may be right in your previous post. If I don't like the way they develop this game I always have the option to play something else.

  11. #171
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    [QUOTE=Gremmlynn;5099618]I'm guessing from your position on this issue that anyone who enjoys the game differently than you is enjoying it wrong then. Because for me to collect destiny xp while just enjoying the game, which is my goal, would mean progressing linearly, not regressing and playing some watered down version of my characters for most of the process. Use level 1 to get level 2, use level 2 to get level 3...right on up to use my ED for the long slow process of gaining my fate points and twist in those things I took the time to earn.

    Nope, from my position if someone enjoys different aspects of the game then I do, but we both enjoy the game, we are both winning. From my perspective...your also not enjoying the game very much. That's why I've suggested some alternatives for you that have worked for me to keep the game enjoyable. I'm not saying play like me or your wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I find it rather hard to enjoy the journey when the only paths are taking me to places I have no real reason to want to go.
    I'm not surprised by this statement with a lot of the narrow minded thing you have said in this thread. There are just a lot of things you aren't looking at. Like for example...we all know epic tr is right around the corner. Why get all butthurt over leveling destinies now, when its quite possible epic tr might make it easier to level them. Like for example if epic tr sets you from level cap to 20, but lets you change your classes, you would be able to blow out a few epic trs at the same time as leveling destinies in classes that are actually fun to play. Or maybe epic tr simply offers a way to accrue fate points without leveling all your destinies and they just put a hard cap on total fate points regardless of where they come from. You could get all your fate points through epic tr that way without touching destinies you don't like.

    Or ask yourself...why are you even in such a rush to get to end game. Look at the current state of end game, it sucks. Browse the forums a bit and you'll notice all the end game sucks threads. Go ahead and rush to get there, your just going to go from complaining leveling destinies is boring and you hate tr'ing to there isn't anything to do. We also know the level cap getting bumped to 30 is going to be happening sometime in the not so distant future. Why such a rush getting to cap now and getting the best gear from the hardest content on the hardest difficulty settings when soon as level cap 30 hits most of its going to just end up being second rate anyhow?

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    Lets try to make that example more accurate. Lets say you are employed in project X, say building houses, and you build an awesome house. Truly awesome. You get paid for the project, and try to get a new job Y. But, not only you won't be building houses, but you will be forbidden to use any of the experties learned in project X. Instead of continuing in what you're good at, and maybe learning a bit of this and that on the side, maybe wiring or plumbing or whatnot, you must pick a totally new profession and learn that from scratch. Thus, project Y will be, say, telemarketing.
    That would be awesome. Maybe you wouldn't make the best house builder because your scared of climbing ladders, or you wouldn't make a good telemarketer because your fingers are too fat to dial a phone, but by the time you got done with all your projects, you would have developed a huge skill set, just like the huge skill set you develop when you level all your destines.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I love how you try to re-define tr'ing. If TR was just a fancy way to say to say re-rolling nobody would do it. TR is exactly what you describe ED's as...a way to continue playing the same character. People don't tr a toon xx times and re-level with higher xp requirements then a first life toon because they keep messing up their build...they do it because they get a little more powerful each life. No wonder you don't tr and don't recognize how very similar collecting past life feats is to collecting fate points...you don't even understand tr'ing lol.
    I just described what TRing is to me. Personally I get a chuckle at how much effort many put into such litle gain. TRing means having to gain more xp than you did the first time around for but the slightest gain (to put it into perspective, my fighter can get the equivalent of the relevant portion of a past life feat for 1AP). It's like a retired fortune 500 CEO getting a minimum wage job to supplement their 7 figure pension. That may be the reason they give, but just not having anything better to do is what I believe.



    Because if you want the bonus from (insert random destiny here) you should have to play that destiny. Is that too complicated of a concept for you to grasp?
    No, that I agree with. What I disagree with is tying fate points to earning useless destinies. It seems a much better idea to count fate point xp seperatly and actually give players a reason to play their character in their chosen destiny. This in no way stops those of you who want to knock out every destiny at the same time from doing so in the same way that leveling a destiny doesn't prevent gaining character levels. I can fully see why someone who is interested in playing a broad range of lives would want to do so. Me, I just want something to do with this destiny I just finished and not being able to advance my character while doing so doesn't provide it.


    The thing is...there is only one reason not to play a finished ED. That is because you want a finished ED on steroids, which is what it becomes when you have full fate points/twists. At that point it then turns back into my previous answer for you. If you want the extra fate points and skills to twist from a specific destiny...you should have to actually play that destiny to unlock the bonuses it offers.
    The reason I want to play that finished ED to get those "steroids" is because the game doesn't really offer any other reason to play that character at all at that point. EE's sure, but to what point as the character has already been taken as far as it can go? Fate points could add ~15 million xp worth of reason to play those EE's. Now they provide ~15 million xp worth of reasons not to and no real reason to more than once after you gain them. The whole system seems disjointed and working against itself.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    So use your level 5 destiny and never leave it. Its not like when you cap a destiny the game kicks you out of it and you can go back to it until you unlock everything.
    It just doesn't provide much incentive to do so. Each EE once and what then as I'm not much of a gear hound? So it's pretty much a choice of playing the character in a nerfed state or not having much reason to play it at all. Which generally means the latter.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Except, I'm not being hired to complete project X. I'm being asked to choose to do so and despite how much I like project X the process involves never really having a reason to have it. Soon as I get the lions share done, I'm told I have to do projects A-J, which in themselves do very little for me, to complete it without never really getting a chance to enjoy it. By the time that's done, there's nothing more to do. If I were being hired to do project X I could care less what whoever hired me to do it does with it as long as I get paid, so poor example.

    I have no problem with having to dabel in other destinies to actually earn anything one may want to twist in. But it seems ludicrous to not be able to actually use that ED you have already earned to grind out the fate point xp. The fate point mechanics in place actually seem like something the devs put in place just to see how stupid we are.

    But I think you may be right in your previous post. If I don't like the way they develop this game I always have the option to play something else.
    Your problem is mainly one of attitude towards the work you have to do. You wish to have the endresult without going through the intermediary steps. I really cant blame you for it, but... well... The intermediary steps must be taken. Thats the way it goes in almost every thing (except premade meals, although you have to make the money for it)
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I just described what TRing is to me. Personally I get a chuckle at how much effort many put into such litle gain. TRing means having to gain more xp than you did the first time around for but the slightest gain (to put it into perspective, my fighter can get the equivalent of the relevant portion of a past life feat for 1AP). It's like a retired fortune 500 CEO getting a minimum wage job to supplement their 7 figure pension. That may be the reason they give, but just not having anything better to do is what I believe.
    Well...this pretty much sums it up that you just want an easy button. You don't tr because its a lot of input for a little bit out output. However...fate points by comparison would be a lot of input for a lot of output, and that's still not good enough for you. You want them to make fate points a little bit of input for a lot of output.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It just doesn't provide much incentive to do so. Each EE once and what then as I'm not much of a gear hound? So it's pretty much a choice of playing the character in a nerfed state or not having much reason to play it at all. Which generally means the latter.
    Its like I already said. If ee on your main destiny is a challenge, and eh on an off destiny is a challenge...why is it you can have fun playing ee but not eh. If your not a gear hound it should matter even less what difficulty your in. What do Now its just like your complaining you don't have much to do in game, but if it was easier to achieve what little you do have left to do, then you would play more. I just don't follow that logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I'm not surprised by this statement with a lot of the narrow minded thing you have said in this thread. There are just a lot of things you aren't looking at. Like for example...we all know epic tr is right around the corner. Why get all butthurt over leveling destinies now, when its quite possible epic tr might make it easier to level them. Like for example if epic tr sets you from level cap to 20, but lets you change your classes, you would be able to blow out a few epic trs at the same time as leveling destinies in classes that are actually fun to play. Or maybe epic tr simply offers a way to accrue fate points without leveling all your destinies and they just put a hard cap on total fate points regardless of where they come from. You could get all your fate points through epic tr that way without touching destinies you don't like.
    I think you are dreaming if you think epic TR wont be the current TR system updated to include epic levels in the process. As well as having an unacceptable prerequisite to avoid paying them for the privilege of avoiding their terrible twist mechanics. I'm not cynical enough to believe they set it up to be that way, but have no doubt they mean to take advantage of that fact. In which case, no, I refuse to be played for a fool in that manner.

    Or ask yourself...why are you even in such a rush to get to end game. Look at the current state of end game, it sucks. Browse the forums a bit and you'll notice all the end game sucks threads. Go ahead and rush to get there, your just going to go from complaining leveling destinies is boring and you hate tr'ing to there isn't anything to do. We also know the level cap getting bumped to 30 is going to be happening sometime in the not so distant future. Why such a rush getting to cap now and getting the best gear from the hardest content on the hardest difficulty settings when soon as level cap 30 hits most of its going to just end up being second rate anyhow?
    In a hurry to get to end game? I've been playing the damn game for four years now, by my count I've been dragging my feet all the way but eventually that's where we end up. When the cap went to 25 I was sitting on 3 capped characters and they made up that in the ensuing year. As I have little interest in TRing just to kill time(I don't hate it, I just see little point in, basically, deleting toons that I still enjoy playing - likely for the same reasons I don't enjoy going backwards with ED's), my choices are hitting cap and not playing those characters at all pretty much. Which means the other 4 will just get there faster themselves. So what do you suggest, find something else to play in order to avoid hitting cap in this one because the devs can't seem to find anything for us to do there, even when we give them suggestions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    That would be awesome. Maybe you wouldn't make the best house builder because your scared of climbing ladders, or you wouldn't make a good telemarketer because your fingers are too fat to dial a phone, but by the time you got done with all your projects, you would have developed a huge skill set, just like the huge skill set you develop when you level all your destines.
    Do you mean as a player or the character? Because don't see either. As a player one is more likely to just grind out what they can while pretending they have no destiny, playing easy content isn't how you get better. As for the character, most of those skills are just going to be locked out as soon as you hit level 5 and move on, if one even bothers to set the points in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I think you are dreaming if you think epic TR wont be the current TR system updated to include epic levels in the process. As well as having an unacceptable prerequisite to avoid paying them for the privilege of avoiding their terrible twist mechanics. I'm not cynical enough to believe they set it up to be that way, but have no doubt they mean to take advantage of that fact. In which case, no, I refuse to be played for a fool in that manner.
    Haha...and the sad part about that whole bug...all they have to do is set the fatespinner to saying COME BACK AT LEVEL 20 to anyone 19 or under who talks to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    In a hurry to get to end game? I've been playing the damn game for four years now, by my count I've been dragging my feet all the way but eventually that's where we end up. When the cap went to 25 I was sitting on 3 capped characters and they made up that in the ensuing year. As I have little interest in TRing just to kill time(I don't hate it, I just see little point in, basically, deleting toons that I still enjoy playing - likely for the same reasons I don't enjoy going backwards with ED's), my choices are hitting cap and not playing those characters at all pretty much. Which means the other 4 will just get there faster themselves. So what do you suggest, find something else to play in order to avoid hitting cap in this one because the devs can't seem to find anything for us to do there, even when we give them suggestions?
    That's what I do...I get bored here I go play something else. Its a pve game...end game is always going to suck. It was never any good, even when the cap was 20. Ooohh...go farm some epic level 20 gear that you can only use when your level 20. Oh wait...if you can do those quests without epic gear, then epic gear is pointless because there isn't anything you need it for. In essence your farming gear just to become better at farming gear.

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