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  1. #781

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    ...and if every game developer ever caved to these demands, their games would not enjoy the longevity you seem to believe they would. As a person that has been active on multiple MMO forums, I can tell you that thinking it always will is a fallacy. One needs only look at Aion to see what I'm talking about.
    Yes, thinking this way is a fallacy. Assuming the longevity of the game will change is a slippery slope argument since there's nothing in a different system that changes the fundamental need to grind XP. X time is X time. If anyone leaves it won't be for method B since they won't magically be able to unlock destiny points any quicker then grinding through each destiny.

    Again - please stop using the word 'fallacy' about everything if you don't know what a fallacy is.

  2. #782
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Yes, thinking this way is a fallacy. Assuming the longevity of the game will change is a slippery slope argument since there's nothing in a different system that changes the fundamental need to grind XP. X time is X time. If anyone leaves it won't be for method B since they won't magically be able to unlock destiny points any quicker then grinding through each destiny.

    Again - please stop using the word 'fallacy' about everything if you don't know what a fallacy is.
    Fallacy What do you know, it means exactly what I thought it meant.

  3. #783

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Fallacy What do you know, it means exactly what I thought it meant.
    Conditional or questionable fallacies
    Slippery slope (thin edge of the wedge, camel's nose) – asserting that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact/event that should not happen, thus the first step should not happen. While this fallacy is a popular one, it is, in its essence, an appeal to probability fallacy. (e.g if person x does y then z would (probably) occur, leading to q, leading to w, leading to e.)[71] This is also related to the Reductio ad absurdum.
    Assuming something happens because you don't like what's proposed is a fallacy. Then you have Reductio ad Absurdum, fallacy through extreme and absurd examples. Put plainly - there's about NOTHING in our suggestion that will make people leave since the bottom line is the same amount of time leveling. If anyone leave it'll be because of other reasons.

    The only objection you got is your personal sense of earning - there's nothing suggested that either break the game or for that matter remove anyone's ability to unlock everything like you do now.

  4. #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    After all, what would have been the harm of allowing people to play in preferred destinies and still progress fate points? What is the actual benefit to a player to play in a destiny that he doesn't like? Especially since the "timesink" aspect could have been made basically the same.
    As a whole MMO players have a tendency to be a very negative bunch of people when it comes to new ideas. You can check pretty much any MMO message board and it will have posts of very reasonable ideas that will make the game more fun for some of the players and those posts will generally be packed with criticism. MMO players seem to read those posts with the mindset, "What can I possibly say to make sure I don't like this idea" rather than honestly evaluating the idea on its merits and deciding whether it is reasonable or not. They often time look at the current game and vigorously defend any trait that the current game has even if the suggestion is more fun. It is one of the things that makes it so hard to discuss MMO theory on MMO message boards. I have had times when I posted an idea and specifically said I am not talk about changing the current game we are playing but merely discussing ideas for how an MMO could work and got tons of responses from people talking about why the game was perfect the way it was. You can't even discuss theory with these people because they are so engrossed in the defense of their current game.

    This thread is a fine example as the posts supporting the current system speak less about how the current system is ideal and more about how it does not need to be changed. Almost nothing NEEDS to be changed, but that doesn't mean that change cannot be an improvement. This thread would be only a page long if instead of saying that the idea was unnecessary people just said, "Your idea is good." They could choose to add more (like how to best enjoy the game we currently have) but there is no real need to argue about the merit of the idea. As the discussion goes deeper we started debating other points (e.g. how similar is earning a past life feat to earning ED fate points) but still the fundamental point of the entire thread is the same, fate points could be more fun to earn. It is such a simple statement there is no need to argue with it.

    And I am not picking on just the naysayers in this thread. If I started a new thread about how equipment could be more fun to earn you would see a whole new crop of negative people defending the current system no matter what I suggested. The default for MMO players seems to be, "If it is not something on my personal bad list then it is something I will defend without fail no matter what it is and no matter how good the suggestion is."
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  5. #785
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post

    And I am not picking on just the naysayers in this thread. If I started a new thread about how equipment could be more fun to earn you would see a whole new crop of negative people defending the current system no matter what I suggested. The default for MMO players seems to be, "If it is not something on my personal bad list then it is something I will defend without fail no matter what it is and no matter how good the suggestion is."
    And then I think there's an entire group of people that think "yeah the process wasn't much fun and I agree the suggestion may indeed be more fun, but I'm already done/deeply invested in the current system, and there's no way I'll let other people not have to trudge through the system like I did. Ain't no way they should be allowed to have more fun than me".

    How else can people claim that a suggestion, even if the fundamental timesink and relative difficulty level may be the same, is asking for an "easy button" because you're asking for it to be more enjoyable to you.

    I don't think there's a lot like that, but I do think there are some. Honestly, I just think there's a segment of the gamers that genuinly like the system and can't fathom why it should be changed. That would be understandable. But when any suggestion doesn't even affect the way they play, it just makes it really strange when they argue against any substitute to the system.

    Not replacing their preferred system but an additional option alongside that system.

    Guess it's just a part of human nature I don't understand.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 09-23-2013 at 04:56 PM.

  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    More all the work but none of the pain. If that's what I'm after I can save on electricity by leaving the computer off and just banging my head on a wall.
    I actually fully support a "all the work but none of the pain" philosophy but I bet most people (including most of the people asking for a change to fate points) do not. People want what they personally find unfun to be changed but what other people find unfun needs to stay the same. For example, I am going to suggest (and yes I am serious) that the elite version of equipment should drop in all difficulties. Since we are saying the same amount of work lets adjust drop rates accordingly. If it takes 3 times as long to run EE for a given quest versus EH then the drop rate will be 3 times higher on EE than it is on EH, but the exact same item will drop so that people that don't like a challenge can get the item they want without having to run EE. Now I am not seriously going to start a thread suggesting this and I will tell you why. Because it would be a nightmare of people ripping into what a terrible idea that is for one reason or another. You would see several of the same people that are complaining about how unfun it is to grind ED's telling me why that is the most terrible idea ever and using a lot of the same lines that people are using to argue with you (like the "you just want the game to easy and not work for things" line).

    I couldn't agree more. The game should be designed to be as fun as possible for as many people as possible. That would be great. But unfortunately, MMO players as a whole are against that. They want the game to be as fun as possible for them (and people like them) and as miserable as possible for anyone that has fun in a different way than they do.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  7. #787

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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    As a whole MMO players have a tendency to be a very negative bunch of people when it comes to new ideas. You can check pretty much any MMO message board and it will have posts of very reasonable ideas that will make the game more fun for some of the players and those posts will generally be packed with criticism. MMO players seem to read those posts with the mindset, "What can I possibly say to make sure I don't like this idea" rather than honestly evaluating the idea on its merits and deciding whether it is reasonable or not. They often time look at the current game and vigorously defend any trait that the current game has even if the suggestion is more fun. It is one of the things that makes it so hard to discuss MMO theory on MMO message boards. I have had times when I posted an idea and specifically said I am not talk about changing the current game we are playing but merely discussing ideas for how an MMO could work and got tons of responses from people talking about why the game was perfect the way it was. You can't even discuss theory with these people because they are so engrossed in the defense of their current game.

    This thread is a fine example as the posts supporting the current system speak less about how the current system is ideal and more about how it does not need to be changed. Almost nothing NEEDS to be changed, but that doesn't mean that change cannot be an improvement. This thread would be only a page long if instead of saying that the idea was unnecessary people just said, "Your idea is good." They could choose to add more (like how to best enjoy the game we currently have) but there is no real need to argue about the merit of the idea. As the discussion goes deeper we started debating other points (e.g. how similar is earning a past life feat to earning ED fate points) but still the fundamental point of the entire thread is the same, fate points could be more fun to earn. It is such a simple statement there is no need to argue with it.

    And I am not picking on just the naysayers in this thread. If I started a new thread about how equipment could be more fun to earn you would see a whole new crop of negative people defending the current system no matter what I suggested. The default for MMO players seems to be, "If it is not something on my personal bad list then it is something I will defend without fail no matter what it is and no matter how good the suggestion is."
    In regards to equipment, I mentioned in another thread that constructively EN and EH should drop the kind of stuff they do now with comms needed to unlock EE. There are ways to reward people running EE but I think it's bad over all the way EE have saturated the market and can be bought. There's really no desire to grind even for loot. There are so many things right now that fight the desire to run DDO that once you do a pack and have done most things in the game, you're left bored and you move on until the next content drops etc. This xpack just made it 10 times worse.

    I got lots of toons that still could need some equipment and destinies done, but having done most of it on one already I feel so done.

  8. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Then you have Reductio ad Absurdum, fallacy through extreme and absurd examples.

    I think you have this wrong. The correct term is "Rectus ad Flatus". It not used much but can really stink up an argument.

  9. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    TRing is not end-game. TRing is what players who aren't quite good enough for end-game do until they are ready.
    I guess that is basically true. End game in DDO is hanging out on the forums complaining that there is no end game so I suppose people that still want to play TR instead while they build up their desire to complain and join you in the real end game.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I guess that is basically true. End game in DDO is hanging out on the forums complaining that there is no end game so I suppose people that still want to play TR instead while they build up their desire to complain and join you in the real end game.
    Drink your milk and eat your vegetables and someday we might let you hang out with us.

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    ...and if every game developer ever caved to these demands, their games would not enjoy the longevity you seem to believe they would. As a person that has been active on multiple MMO forums, I can tell you that thinking it always will is a fallacy. One needs only look at Aion to see what I'm talking about.
    What demands, that the grind be fun enough to not seem a grind? Personally, that's what I consider the difference between a good game and a not so good game.

    Or is it if the grind is fun it's not going to hold back the noobs who aren't dedicated enough to endure whatever the devs can think up to bore the more casual into failure? That twists are a special reward for those willing to put up with a marathon grind? Makes some sense in a vacuum, but falls apart when you consider it's effect on those players not willing to do so, or not willing to do so more than once.

    What difference does it make if you're simply grinding sideways to get through the map to where you want to be, or if you're grinding sideways to get where you want to be while accruing fate points? The logic of "I'll grind sideways only if I have to do it to get twists, but not if I have to get the fate points while I'm doing it" falls flat.
    What's the difference between walking 3 blocks to get a pack of gum or 300 miles? Because, I can tell you, one I'm willing to do and the other just means I'm going to do without gum. If I fins myself doing without gum often enough in a game, I'm going to start questioning why I play.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    I don't think there's a lot like that, but I do think there are some. Honestly, I just think there's a segment of the gamers that genuinly like the system and can't fathom why it should be changed. That would be understandable. But when any suggestion doesn't even affect the way they play, it just makes it really strange when they argue against any substitute to the system.

    Not replacing their preferred system but an additional option alongside that system.

    Guess it's just a part of human nature I don't understand.
    Actually, that's an easy one. It simply makes them less special, elite, hard core, or whatever one wants to call it. The more people who give up on a bad system, the more special they feel themselves for enduring it.

  13. #793
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Actually, that's an easy one. It simply makes them less special, elite, hard core, or whatever one wants to call it. The more people who give up on a bad system, the more special they feel themselves for enduring it.
    Redo your courses in psychology, please, you just hit fail. Its got nothing to do with feeling good about enduring, it just means that people cant understand why you cant endure it.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Redo your courses in psychology, please, you just hit fail. Its got nothing to do with feeling good about enduring, it just means that people cant understand why you cant endure it.
    Can't isn't the same things as have no desire to spend my leisure time doing so. That seems to be the thing some can't understand. In order for this game to be successful players have to choose to play it.

    So tell me, what makes you want to endure dull naked grind?

  15. #795
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Can't isn't the same things as have no desire to spend my leisure time doing so. That seems to be the thing some can't understand. In order for this game to be successful players have to choose to play it.

    So tell me, what makes you want to endure dull naked grind?
    The fact is that i dont grind. I have short term objectives, and switch between toons often enough to avoid digging a groove to run along, since i know that not doing that would make the game grindy. Oh, and i enjoy doing things that way as well.

    Since i periodically TR my toons, i usually have one in almost every level range, and can play any quest i feel like playing t them moment. Neither do i particularly care one way or the other if my toon is ready for EE as fast as possible, so i can take the scenic route.

    The end result is that i dont grind, partly by choice, and partly because of the choices i make (if that makes any sense, it did when i wrote it)
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  16. #796

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Redo your courses in psychology, please, you just hit fail. Its got nothing to do with feeling good about enduring, it just means that people cant understand why you cant endure it.
    In all honesty it's about envy. That people who ask for a change that make it seems easy are entitled. Especially among people who confuse reality and 'earning' and a game. The feeling still remains; people with a deep sense of satisfaction through work or 'earning' easily confuse that in a game like this. And to a small extent it is; we should 'earn' a status through 'working' for it as it would be bad for the longevity of anything if we could only get instantly rewarded. But the reality is that if all things being equal then the sense of earning becomes a personal feeling and completely unrelated to how other people see the same thing.

    As long as the basic most fundamental features are intact then what we're arguing is for degrees of differences. A system should never be regressive. And no amount of lying to yourself will change that - regardless if the best advice is 'don't make it feel like it'. Sometimes a bad way of doing things it is just bad, regardless if someone can make the gag reflex into a matter of 'work' satisfaction.

  17. #797
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    In all honesty it's about envy. That people who ask for a change that make it seems easy are entitled. Especially among people who confuse reality and 'earning' and a game. The feeling still remains; people with a deep sense of satisfaction through work or 'earning' easily confuse that in a game like this. And to a small extent it is; we should 'earn' a status through 'working' for it as it would be bad for the longevity of anything if we could only get instantly rewarded. But the reality is that if all things being equal then the sense of earning becomes a personal feeling and completely unrelated to how other people see the same thing.

    As long as the basic most fundamental features are intact then what we're arguing is for degrees of differences. A system should never be regressive. And no amount of lying to yourself will change that - regardless if the best advice is 'don't make it feel like it'. Sometimes a bad way of doing things it is just bad, regardless if someone can make the gag reflex into a matter of 'work' satisfaction.
    I all honesty, envy doesnt necessarily have anything to do with it. It just feels silly to reward someone for not doing that which the reward is supposed to be given for.

    And in all things i hate LCD, and dont think that should be the deciding factor. If you dont want to do what is needed, you shouldnt be rewarded for it.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  18. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The fact is that i dont grind. I have short term objectives, and switch between toons often enough to avoid digging a groove to run along, since i know that not doing that would make the game grindy. Oh, and i enjoy doing things that way as well.

    Since i periodically TR my toons, i usually have one in almost every level range, and can play any quest i feel like playing t them moment. Neither do i particularly care one way or the other if my toon is ready for EE as fast as possible, so i can take the scenic route.

    The end result is that i dont grind, partly by choice, and partly because of the choices i make (if that makes any sense, it did when i wrote it)
    Sounds similar to how I play, sans the TRing. The problem comes when progression at epic levels leads me to doing silly things like grinding out those useless destinies. It just leads me to simply not choose those characters as I realize that the current short term goal is nothing but a naked, regressive grind. I simply can't fool myself into believing there is any other reason to do something so silly as to level a destiny that offers nothing to the character. It's not so much being in a hurry to get to EE as wanting to get beyond the lower difficulties that really have nothing left to offer me in entertainment value. I see it as akin to having to level to 20 on Khorthos and trying to find a reason to run much heroic content after. Khorthos gets old and the rest loses a lot of purpose.

  19. #799
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Sounds similar to how I play, sans the TRing. The problem comes when progression at epic levels leads me to doing silly things like grinding out those useless destinies. It just leads me to simply not choose those characters as I realize that the current short term goal is nothing but a naked, regressive grind. I simply can't fool myself into believing there is any other reason to do something so silly as to level a destiny that offers nothing to the character. It's not so much being in a hurry to get to EE as wanting to get beyond the lower difficulties that really have nothing left to offer me in entertainment value. I see it as akin to having to level to 20 on Khorthos and trying to find a reason to run much heroic content after. Khorthos gets old and the rest loses a lot of purpose.
    Ok, so the trouble is that youre stuck with the same quests over and over (in a greater degree than a TR would have). One solution would be to get more quests tp run, but that is a slow progress, since you can run every new quest or series to the ground before the next one came out. And i wont say "you should TR" since it seems you dont like TRing, in which case it wouldnt help you at all.

    Though, if you have never TRed, you could try doing it with your least favorite toon to see if its as bad as you fear. Wont help you if you have, and disliked.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I all honesty, envy doesnt necessarily have anything to do with it. It just feels silly to reward someone for not doing that which the reward is supposed to be given for.

    And in all things i hate LCD, and dont think that should be the deciding factor. If you dont want to do what is needed, you shouldnt be rewarded for it.
    That makes sense, if you are willing to accept that the task given is worth doing and is in some way appropriate to the reward.

    That may be where the disconnect comes from. Personally, I don't see either of those to particularly be the case. The task could be to spend 100 hours swimming in the harbor and it wouldn't be much less worth doing in my perspective. I find only a tenuous relationship between spending time playing without a compatible destiny and getting better when with one.

    Mostly I step back and see it as Turbine adding pointless grind with a rather lame explanation for it and thinking I'm to stupid to see it for what it is.

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