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  1. #381
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    I have a better idea for everyone who is not wanting to do their destinies the so called hard way.

    Stone of Epic Destiny 4995 TP Use this stone to grant XP to complete 1 Epic Destiny (XP does not effect Charicter level only the XP of the Active Destiny when used)

    problem solved P2W

    you can P2W Epic Destinies just like P2W XP stone for PL
    Yes, unfortunately this is the most likely solution that Turbine will come up with. P2W can be a solution, I suppose. But the more Turbine pushes that envelope, the greater the likelihood of just turning off more and more players.

  2. #382
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    I have a better idea for everyone who is not wanting to do their destinies the so called hard way.

    Stone of Epic Destiny 4995 TP Use this stone to grant XP to complete 1 Epic Destiny (XP does not effect Charicter level only the XP of the Active Destiny when used)

    problem solved P2W

    you can P2W Epic Destinies just like P2W XP stone for PL
    what do you mean "hard way"? do you mean like it is now where you intentionally nerf your character to level through off destinies for fate points?

    there will most likely be a P2W option as well. Turbine does this with everything.

  3. #383

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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    And most of that xp is in a destiny you can't stand playing because you refuse to adapt at all. You can easily haste/rage/tenser spam your way through most of the melee oriented destinies, still have access to a ton of other useful spells, and easily self heal if your wf wiz, and probably add more over all dps to your party then a paladin in those same destinies lol. Shirardi? Come on. If your finding that useless on a caster life your doing something very, very wrong. Might have to adjust you spell book a little...but oh no, you have to do something a little different...oh wait, why is that the end of the world again?
    My wizard is a dc caster. When I play him, I want to play a dc caster, not a tenser'd melee or a shirardi missile spammer. If I want to play those kinds of characters I'll roll one up. As it turns out, I rolled up the types of characters I actually want to play, and would prefer to play them how I designed them to be played.

  4. #384
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    what do you mean "hard way"? do you mean like it is now where you intentionally nerf your character to level through off destinies for fate points?

    there will most likely be a P2W option as well. Turbine does this with everything.
    what I mean by the "hard way" is the way everyone is ****ing and moaning about so much so it must be hard.

  5. #385

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    what I mean by the "hard way" is the way everyone is ****ing and moaning about so much so it must be hard.
    You're confusing "hard" with "unfun."

    The irony is that people have explained, again and again, using very small words so even a three year old can understand, that the unfun system we have on live results in people doing it the EASY way, by running super easy content when leveling off-destinies.

    Allowing the use of main destiny to earn fate points would encourage people to farm fate points doing more difficult content.

    This clearly bad design is what's driving all the "****ing and moaning," not the difficulty of it.

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    So do all the other destinies first and the final one that's better? Why wouldn't you feel any less burned out by that process if the issue is feeling the pain from A to B just because you saved the best for C?
    Yes, it is better. As has been pointed out, playing level 19 in your favorite class is not a terrible thing for most people. Most people enjoy their favorite class at level 19. That said, playing your favorite class at levels 20-28 in the worst possible destiny is still more powerful than playing at level 19. Most of the complaints I hear are not about needing 22 million experience. People are not complaining that it takes too long (which is the cause of burn out). They are complaining that it is hard to go to level zero in an off destiny after getting addicted to the power of being level 5 in their best destiny. Like the person you quoted said, eating your dessert first may make the rest of your meal taste bland. Could the meal be better? I am sure it could be. But if you didn't eat your dessert first you would not find the meal nearly as terrible as you do now.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I'm more a solve the issue type person then to lets survive the plague by ducking. Nothing wrong with advice, but I rather something changed then to try to fool myself into greener grass. But if it works for you it's all good.
    It is not a matter of fooling yourself. The dinner actually does taste good. But it is hard to eat even a good dinner after eating an incredible tasting dessert. I suppose the entire meal could be dessert, which is what you are asking for, but the fact that some of the meal is not dessert does not necessary represent a problem that needs to be fixed. I suppose this is the reason parents don't serve dessert until after the child has finished his dinner. Some people just don't have the self-control to save dessert for after their meal if they are both present at the same time.

    And don't get me wrong, if you enjoy your meal more overall when you eat your dessert first then go for it. But if you discover that eating dessert first makes the rest of the meal taste bland by comparison (as is the case for most of us in this thread) then learn the lesson and save the dessert for last.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Outside of open PVP MMOs, that is generally the case and also the incentive, along with added character complexity, for many to get higher. If I want to step on ants, I got a sidewalk outside I can do that on. To me, the ease of the low levels is mostly to allow one to learn the game controls and mechanics without having to worry about staying alive much.
    I like to play defensive character (usually heavily armored healers since in a good game they are the hardest to kill). I don't like to die. Ever. It ruins my immersion. While I don't actually play permadeath, I approach games as if death were real and permanent (i.e. I take no stupid risks). I like to gain power so that I can gain survivability. The trouble is that even if I focus entirely on defense and do everything I can to increase my armor, healing, damage mitigation, etc. the overall effect is that every time I level my survivability goes down and I become weaker relative to my opponents. That seriously demotivates my desire to level.

    Imagine if every year you went to school you fell further behind all the people that would eventually be applying for the same job as you? Imagine in every year that you worked you became worse at your job relative to all the people that would be trying for the same promotions as you? Make no mistake, this is not a PvP argument. This is a PvE game which means the other players are not my opponents. They are not applying for the same jobs as me. My opponents are the NPC's. They are the ones that I am in direction competition for survival with. The harder I work the weaker I become relative to those opponents. Even though I have more toys to play with at higher levels my real goal of becoming more powerful is never reached. In a Final Fantasy game (the single player ones) you can beat the final boss at level 40 but still level up to 100. If your goal is to be powerful the option is there. In MMO's the goal of becoming powerful is unreachable because your progress is always capped behind that of your opponents. Try as much as you want you will never be as awesome as the opponents you fight. Except at low levels. That is the only time you actually get to be powerful.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  9. #389
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You're confusing "hard" with "unfun."

    The irony is that people have explained, again and again, using very small words so even a three year old can understand, that the unfun system we have on live results in people doing it the EASY way, by running super easy content when leveling off-destinies.

    Allowing the use of main destiny to earn fate points would encourage people to farm fate points doing more difficult content.

    This clearly bad design is what's driving all the "****ing and moaning," not the difficulty of it.
    I have a feeling that even if we could level off-destinies in a main destiny and run EE content the majority of players would STILL do it the easy way and run super easy content because, of the XP per minute difference.

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldcrafter View Post
    I see a lot of arguing, but no real effort to resolve the issues of the argument. The pro-suggestion side wants it to change because they want it to, the anti-suggestion side just points out ways they can cope with things as-is. Why not offer an olive branch and make suggestions on what would be an acceptable middle ground?

    How about the earlier suggestion that Fate points are linked to your class experience instead of individual EDs. Also, adjust the fate price costs for the second and third twist, to cope with the more limited amount of Fate Points (8 as of now for 21-28, 10 fate points for when the cap raises to 30) That way, a character can stay in their main ED and still make progress on their fate points, without getting credit in other EDs. Everybody wins.
    I think no one is looking for a middle ground because both sides are right. The game would be fun for more people if they changed the way fate points are earned. Also, until they do make a change, the game will be fun for more people if they follow the advice of how to cope with things as they are. Both sides are correct and thus both sides should be listened to. One side wants a better future, the other side is telling the first side how to have a more pleasant present. As usual people arguing on the internet are being rude on both sides rather than just accepting that both sides are right and both sides should be listened to. As one poster keeps pointing out, the anti side is not really even trying to say why the current system is better. They are trying to help the pro side better enjoy the game until their suggestion is listened to (which is very good advice since their suggestion may never be implemented).

    Promote change while still making the best of your current circumstances.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  11. #391
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    I have a feeling that even if we could level off-destinies in a main destiny and run EE content the majority of players would STILL do it the easy way and run super easy content because, of the XP per minute difference.
    Which would change nothing for those people. However, people who like to do harder content in a good ED and still earn xp while doing it would have an improved playing experience.

    EN and even EH is content, that for the most part, hardly matters what ED you're in, or even if you don't have EDs at all. Even using maxed EDs wouldn't shave more than a few seconds off of that content, because it's pretty darn easy to stomp it as it is. Where maxed EDs really matter is in EE content, particularly in PuGs so that there isn't someone who's a "drag" on the party.

    Even if a majority played exactly the same as now, running through super easy content, allowing them access to good EDs wouldn't make much overall difference, since that's what they do now while in off-destinies anyway.

    But to people who would like to play the more challenging content, they could do it, without feeling that they were being a drag on the party, or foregoing xp advancement by playing in a capped Destiny.

  12. #392
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    I have a feeling that even if we could level off-destinies in a main destiny and run EE content the majority of players would STILL do it the easy way and run super easy content because, of the XP per minute difference.
    im sure some probably would, but for some like me it would mean I can have fun while earning fate points and feel like my character wouldn't be a burden in a group. the option of EE would be open to me. as it stands now, I wont join an EE group because my barb is leveling through Magister and isn't close to the 100% potential she can be normally. I don't like the idea of leveling off destinies while in a main destiny, but its better than what it is now.

  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My wizard is a dc caster. When I play him, I want to play a dc caster, not a tenser'd melee or a shirardi missile spammer. If I want to play those kinds of characters I'll roll one up. As it turns out, I rolled up the types of characters I actually want to play, and would prefer to play them how I designed them to be played.
    And this attitude is the exact reason why I love the current system. Turbine went out of their way to make most of the classes be able to function at more then one role, and to make it so that multiclassing can give us extremely versatile builds, and to make most of the destinies be able to function well with multiple builds, yet all you want to do is play a narrow build in one destiny and think for some reason your entitled to the same perks as someone who at least took the time to experiment and dabble with each destiny and adapt it to their toon as best they could.

  14. #394
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I think no one is looking for a middle ground because both sides are right. The game would be fun for more people if they changed the way fate points are earned. Also, until they do make a change, the game will be fun for more people if they follow the advice of how to cope with things as they are. Both sides are correct and thus both sides should be listened to. One side wants a better future, the other side is telling the first side how to have a more pleasant present. As usual people arguing on the internet are being rude on both sides rather than just accepting that both sides are right and both sides should be listened to. As one poster keeps pointing out, the anti side is not really even trying to say why the current system is better. They are trying to help the pro side better enjoy the game until their suggestion is listened to (which is very good advice since their suggestion may never be implemented).

    Promote change while still making the best of your current circumstances.
    Well, some people are trying to give advice on how to make the gaining of Fate Points better. Others on the "anti-side" are more of the opinion that the "pro-change" said is a "whiny" and wants to be given something while not "earning it".

    And the advice, while well-intentioned for the most part, is really that necessary, because most of us have already figured out our own way of "coping" with what some of us consider a "bad" system. The person who suggested a way to gain xp in off-destinies first himself burned out on a character that he did the "wrong" way and relegated him to "mule" status. Hardly a winning endorsement of the current system. I realize he was presenting it as a cautionary tale, but his "solution" is one that many of us have already done some variation of. I did it a little different on my main, but then I was playing a Paladin who was forced to start in the Divine sphere who really wanted the Primal sphere of FotW. By the time I got to FoTW I decided to cap it so that I could occasionally run EE content with friends. While I was not advancing my Fate Point gain, I was at least level capped so even if I was "wasting" xp, it least I was accruing repeat penalties.

    Then I did a bunch of EN and EH quests in off-destinies which were of zero challenge but at least were "productive". It was nice to once in awhile just run EE content in a maxed out FoTW (or occasionally LD or US just to check them out), even if I was basically "pausing" my character's advancement.

    So the advice, while well-intentioned, is really not that productive. Because most of us have already figured out how to enjoy the game DESPITE the system. We'd just rather see a designed that made us want to play it BECAUSE of the system.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 09-18-2013 at 07:37 PM.

  15. #395
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    And this attitude is the exact reason why I love the current system. Turbine went out of their way to make most of the classes be able to function at more then one role, and to make it so that multiclassing can give us extremely versatile builds, and to make most of the destinies be able to function well with multiple builds, yet all you want to do is play a narrow build in one destiny and think for some reason your entitled to the same perks as someone who at least took the time to experiment and dabble with each destiny and adapt it to their toon as best they could.
    Yep

  16. #396
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    And this attitude is the exact reason why I love the current system. Turbine went out of their way to make most of the classes be able to function at more then one role, and to make it so that multiclassing can give us extremely versatile builds, and to make most of the destinies be able to function well with multiple builds, yet all you want to do is play a narrow build in one destiny and think for some reason your entitled to the same perks as someone who at least took the time to experiment and dabble with each destiny and adapt it to their toon as best they could.
    What benefit from the Destiny itself does my Paladin gain from leveling Magister or Draconic?

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I think no one is looking for a middle ground because both sides are right. The game would be fun for more people if they changed the way fate points are earned. Also, until they do make a change, the game will be fun for more people if they follow the advice of how to cope with things as they are. Both sides are correct and thus both sides should be listened to. One side wants a better future, the other side is telling the first side how to have a more pleasant present. As usual people arguing on the internet are being rude on both sides rather than just accepting that both sides are right and both sides should be listened to. As one poster keeps pointing out, the anti side is not really even trying to say why the current system is better. They are trying to help the pro side better enjoy the game until their suggestion is listened to (which is very good advice since their suggestion may never be implemented).

    Promote change while still making the best of your current circumstances.
    Nope...people looking for easy button are wrong. If your bonus for leveling LD for example is 1 2/3 fate points and access to LD skills for twisting...why should you be able to unlock the bonuses LD grants while playing magister. It just doesn't make sense.

    There has been plenty of advice given in this thread on how to make playing each destiny not only not painful, but in a lot of circumstances actually *gasp* fun, yet people just keep rehashing the same lame argument like they for some reason can't be bothered tr to avoid playing destinies that offer very little to their build, can't alter their play style a little for different destinies to maximize their potential for their build, and act like they can't run anything other then epic elite or the game becomes instantly not fun, or just say forget it and just not bother to max your fate points on every alt and just be happy with what you can accumulate out of destinies you want to play on that alt.

    At this point this thread is like you stumble upon a guy punching himself in the face, and he says his face hurts, and you say hey buddy, maybe your face wouldn't hurt if you stopped punching yourself, and hes like NO I CAN'T DO THAT. Ok then buddy...keep punching yourself in the face.

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    What benefit from the Destiny itself does my Paladin gain from leveling Magister or Draconic?
    1 2/3 fate points apiece

  19. #399
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Nope...people looking for easy button are wrong. If your bonus for leveling LD for example is 1 2/3 fate points and access to LD skills for twisting...why should you be able to unlock the bonuses LD grants while playing magister. It just doesn't make sense.

    There has been plenty of advice given in this thread on how to make playing each destiny not only not painful, but in a lot of circumstances actually *gasp* fun, yet people just keep rehashing the same lame argument like they for some reason can't be bothered tr to avoid playing destinies that offer very little to their build, can't alter their play style a little for different destinies to maximize their potential for their build, and act like they can't run anything other then epic elite or the game becomes instantly not fun, or just say forget it and just not bother to max your fate points on every alt and just be happy with what you can accumulate out of destinies you want to play on that alt.

    At this point this thread is like you stumble upon a guy punching himself in the face, and he says his face hurts, and you say hey buddy, maybe your face wouldn't hurt if you stopped punching yourself, and hes like NO I CAN'T DO THAT. Ok then buddy...keep punching yourself in the face.
    Actually almost nobody wants to access LD twists while playing Magister. What most have asked for is to be able to gain the maximum Fate Points without having to play in EDs that have practically no benefit.

    And yes, a desire to play the hardest content is what drives this. I know there are other difficulties. I played them while leveling off-destinies so that I wouldn't feel like a drag on a group. It was "fun" in it's own way, playing through content that I don't even need EDs in the first place, and can completely stomp. However, I have more fun playing in content that I find challenging. And I like to feel I'm contributing my share. I wouldn't dare PuG an EE quest while in an off-destiny because I would so underperform compared to the other players, that I am barely a step above a "piker".

    Your analogies are funny and all, but they are not very apt. Most players have already stopped "punching themselves in the face" a long time ago. People have made the grind more palatable in their own way or we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

    My way of "not punching myself in the face" is to cap one character and play a lot less. If that's Turbine's great plan, to make people not desire to play much endgame, nor level up many alts, then they have certainly succeeded with me.

  20. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    And this attitude is the exact reason why I love the current system. Turbine went out of their way to make most of the classes be able to function at more then one role, and to make it so that multiclassing can give us extremely versatile builds, and to make most of the destinies be able to function well with multiple builds, yet all you want to do is play a narrow build in one destiny and think for some reason your entitled to the same perks as someone who at least took the time to experiment and dabble with each destiny and adapt it to their toon as best they could.
    Physical damage-dealers can choose to focus on ranged, manyshot/10k/furyshot/etc. They can pick big two-handed weapons for cleave attacks, or go two-weapon for the funky effects, leveldrains and whatnot. That's three options, not even counting in class/multiclass options.

    Furthermore they can go fury for nice burst and party-friendly option or they can go LD for blitzing through content solo. And still, they can do something in any destiny, so far monsters do not evade physical attacks even if the damageboost isn't there.

    Wizards have one option. Spam magic missile in shiradi.
    Sorceres actually have two options: spam spells in shiradi or tr to wizard for better magic missile SLAs.

    Sure, you can choose whether to be pure shiradi spammer, or some multicass shiradi spammer for better defenses. Still not really 'versatile'.

    At least if they could stay in shiradi, they could contribute and have fun in the harder content, instead of blasting through manapool, then waiting for shrine while contributing nothing. The fact that shiradi is the only option is a matter of a different conversation, balancing the ED:s needs a separate thread.

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