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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    If you want to actually twist in an ability, then yeah, you have to traverse the map and unlock/upgrade that ability before you can twist it in. I see no possible argument against this.
    Well, except that traversing the map is also little more than rather arbitrary time sink. But I don't see that as a battle that's likely to be won as it's not big enough of a deal to cause many players to stop playing over.

    That's really the point here. Time sinks are in Turbines favor and leaving the game due to burn out from time sinks are their danger. Finding that happy medium between burning out in the preparation phase and burning out in the end-game phase is the trick. For me, leaving in traversing the map is borderline here. While it wont be to onerous to do it some, the game will have fewer options as I'm not willing to do it to the extent needed to maximize my options. In other words, I wouldn't take a fighter through 4 levels of SD and 3 of FS just to be able to twist in Energy Sheath situationally. But I might endure 3 levels of SC to get to FotW and Cocoon.

    This is likely about what Turbine is looking for as they sell an item that would ease those concerns (I just refuse to buy an item whose only purpose is to get around a complication created by the seller).

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The simple truth is there is no perfect system. There are simply too many playstyles, to many different opinions of what is fun. My definition may differ from yours, and both of ours may differ theirs, none of which matches his and all of fall short of hers'. For every argument of why something is bad, somebody else may use those exact arguments to support why it's good: "I don't like clams; the taste and texture is awful." "I love clams; the taste and texture is exquisite." It's all eye of the beholder stuff.
    Which is why restaurants that offer choices besides just clams tend to do better than those that don't. Which is why I can't figure out what the opposition here is about. Nobody has proposed a change that stops those who find the current system the best thing since sliced bread from continuing to play that way.

    For some people the journey to maximum character power is what's fun. For others, achieving maximum is fun and the journey is just something to get over with as quickly as possible. Until you can nail down a universally 100% unanimously agreed upon definition of what is "fun" this entire debate is nothing but a wild goose chasing it's tail.
    Then there is a 3rd group who believe the process not only shouldn't be fun, but shouldn't have a way for it to be gotten over quickly. Else it wouldn't work to eliminate the weak and casual. Also, a 100% universal definition is only needed if you are unwilling or unable to offer several options. Which is what is being asked for here. "We want another option that is fun for us" "No, what is fun for me is the only right answer" "No, if it's fun for anyone the process isn't doing it's job of separating the men from the mice" is how I see this whole debate going.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I am not sure which actually tastes worse, but I am getting off topic.

    Players are free to request a change in the game that involves less manure eating all they want. But as long as eating manure and drinking beer are both a significant part of the game using sound judgment when it comes to the order to perform these activities
    Even if that sound judgement is to simply play less? Because that's the effect it's had with me. Maybe it's because playing hasn't become such a habit that I just log in every day from X'clock till Y'clock, but rather played as much as I could when the game was more engaging and am not finding the urge to play much at all anymore. It mat be that Turbine is counting on players to so much be in the habit of playing that they actually will log in to eat manure if that's all they are offered. Maybe this is why my perspective seems so different then what others seem to have. Making the best of what they give you seems a lot better when simply doing without isn't seen as an option.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    Yes, and the comparison of a level 1 destiny vs. level 1 destiny just does not make sense. Because you already do have the other destinies at 4/5. When I get the goal destiny to 5 (with 0-4 destinies at level 3/4 to get there), why would I compare any tier 1 to other tier 1, the comparison of goal destiny 5 vs. other destiny 1-4 is valid.
    The problem is you never should have gotten there. We all know it takes 22 million experience to max our ED's. We all know that 20 million of that experience is in off destinies. No one, other than those that can honestly say that dropping in power from a level 5 main destiny to a level 0 off destiny is fun for them, should be getting any of their good destinies to 5 before they get their off destinies there. Your main destiny should be 3 or 4 at the most (and when I say 4 I mean that the moment you see the words "level 4" hit that experience bar you immediately switch out of it). This means that all of the top two levels of abilities in your primary destiny are things you never should have experienced and if your primary destiny is something that can stay at level 3 then the top half of the ED chart should be things you never experienced. We are comparing level 1's to level 1's because that is what you should be leveling. I realize you have to get many of your destinies to 3 or 4 to move around the chart but those few destinies are the only ones that should be higher than level 2 if you still have some destinies at zero. Intentionally leveling your best destiny before moving on to the others is just a lesson in agony (that apparently a lot of the players felt the need to learn the hard way when playing their characters).
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I just don't see how that could be marketed as entertainment. Frankly, I don't really see how that can be marketed at all. "Well we could have done this in a way that is more fun, but we enjoy seeing how much bull people are willing to put up with." doesn't exactly sound like a good business plan to me. If I could actually find a reason why this way is better for anyone, I might change my mind. But I just can't see where putting up with bull is advantages for anyone outside of maybe military trainees.
    It sounds like classic MMO reasoning to me. We all put up with bull in every one of these games.

    I want +5 tomes. I don't want to raid or do high level quests. If I must do those quests I want the rewards to come quickly. Too bad for me. I need to run 20 of the same raid to get a reasonable chance at decent loot. Not fun for me at all. Yet par for the course. All MMO's do this to us. Why do we put up with it? I am not entirely sure. Perhaps it is because no one gives us a multi-player alternative. The only games that give rewards quickly are single player games and those are only fun if you like playing alone.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It sounds like classic MMO reasoning to me. We all put up with bull in every one of these games.

    I want +5 tomes. I don't want to raid or do high level quests. If I must do those quests I want the rewards to come quickly. Too bad for me. I need to run 20 of the same raid to get a reasonable chance at decent loot. Not fun for me at all. Yet par for the course. All MMO's do this to us. Why do we put up with it? I am not entirely sure. Perhaps it is because no one gives us a multi-player alternative. The only games that give rewards quickly are single player games and those are only fun if you like playing alone.
    Actually open PvP centric games do, as not doing so just means your new players are stuck at low levels getting killed by your high level old players far to long for most to find any reason to stick around. But then those games tend to be doomed by their design as either the PvP is to lame to hold players for long or it gives the good players to big an advantage over the less good for any but the top players to have much of a reason to play. Probably why the genre is dominated by non-persistent FPS's.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It sounds like classic MMO reasoning to me. We all put up with bull in every one of these games.

    I want +5 tomes. I don't want to raid or do high level quests. If I must do those quests I want the rewards to come quickly. Too bad for me. I need to run 20 of the same raid to get a reasonable chance at decent loot. Not fun for me at all. Yet par for the course. All MMO's do this to us. Why do we put up with it? I am not entirely sure. Perhaps it is because no one gives us a multi-player alternative. The only games that give rewards quickly are single player games and those are only fun if you like playing alone.
    DDO = grind fest. Once you get what you want you have no reason to log in. The devs know this, thats why leveling = grind. tr = grind. destinies = grind. Gearing up = grind. Its not like there is actually any worthwhile pvp or anything in the game to do that people do just because its fun. Every aspect of the game revolves around xp/gear farming. If they make the xp/gear too easy to get people just get bored faster and quit because everyone will have everything. I'm sure at this point the devs are smart enough to realize a handful of people complaining its too much grind is better then hordes of people leaving because they have nothing left to accomplish or do.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    DDO = grind fest. Once you get what you want you have no reason to log in. The devs know this, thats why leveling = grind. tr = grind. destinies = grind. Gearing up = grind. Its not like there is actually any worthwhile pvp or anything in the game to do that people do just because its fun. Every aspect of the game revolves around xp/gear farming. If they make the xp/gear too easy to get people just get bored faster and quit because everyone will have everything. I'm sure at this point the devs are smart enough to realize a handful of people complaining its too much grind is better then hordes of people leaving because they have nothing left to accomplish or do.
    You do realize that if they make the xp/gear to slow to get people will also get bored and quit also. If it took 6 months to get off Khorthos, how many people do you think would be playing this game? How is "epic Khorthos" any different?

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Actually open PvP centric games do, as not doing so just means your new players are stuck at low levels getting killed by your high level old players far to long for most to find any reason to stick around. But then those games tend to be doomed by their design as either the PvP is to lame to hold players for long or it gives the good players to big an advantage over the less good for any but the top players to have much of a reason to play. Probably why the genre is dominated by non-persistent FPS's.
    I thought most of the open world pvp mmorpgs were insane grind fest, like Lineage, Rohan, and Eve. Those games are grind fest that if you play one of those for a while you wonder why people complain about grinding on ddo, and you certainly don't get anything easy in those games. That's also what makes them fun...when you do get something amazing its something not everyone has, and no matter how good you are you always have reason to keep collecting loot because games like this generally have random loot gen, and you might be the guy that rolls that 1 in 100000000 piece thats the server best thing everyone drools over, not the current version of ddo random loot thats super generic and really not hard to get what you want. Plus those games have one thing ddo is really lacking, which is when you do get your character to what you would consider end game status there are things to do other then just keep running quests for gear you don't need. That's also why a lot of the super grind mmo's end up with private servers with 1000x xp and stuff...end game is so much fun casual players want to play them just for the end game. Maybe the devs should be looking at other games with successful end games for ideas, because what they've been doing clearly isn't working lol.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I thought most of the open world pvp mmorpgs were insane grind fest, like Lineage, Rohan, and Eve. Those games are grind fest that if you play one of those for a while you wonder why people complain about grinding on ddo, and you certainly don't get anything easy in those games. That's also what makes them fun...when you do get something amazing its something not everyone has, and no matter how good you are you always have reason to keep collecting loot because games like this generally have random loot gen, and you might be the guy that rolls that 1 in 100000000 piece thats the server best thing everyone drools over, not the current version of ddo random loot thats super generic and really not hard to get what you want. Plus those games have one thing ddo is really lacking, which is when you do get your character to what you would consider end game status there are things to do other then just keep running quests for gear you don't need. That's also why a lot of the super grind mmo's end up with private servers with 1000x xp and stuff...end game is so much fun casual players want to play them just for the end game. Maybe the devs should be looking at other games with successful end games for ideas, because what they've been doing clearly isn't working lol.
    I guess you missed Shadowbane, the best MMO ever. They did it right. Most important part of the process in that game was to find an established guild (at least on any server over a month or so old). Leveling to cap (75) could be done in a (long) day (3 days being closer to the average time though) without ever actually having to play the character (power leveling was the norm) and tier 2 gear could be randomly rolled on guild vendors en-mass for next to nothing. Tier 1 gear needed to be crafted on those same vendors though, so a guild that was both established and good enough to hold the rare ingredients mines fairly often worked best to get that, farming it from mobs was a grind. Other than that is was mostly being good enough, or having friends that were or just lots of them, to kill everyone close enough to a set spawn point to interfere or ninja loot when it was time for it to spawn.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    You do realize that if they make the xp/gear to slow to get people will also get bored and quit also. If it took 6 months to get off Khorthos, how many people do you think would be playing this game? How is "epic Khorthos" any different?
    DDO is about as far from that as you can get. People have done 3rd+ life tr's in less then 24 hours, and random loot gen is so powerful right now half of my twink gear I had been using for tr's got vendored in favor of just random loot I picked up along the way.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I guess you missed Shadowbane, the best MMO ever. They did it right. Most important part of the process in that game was to find an established guild (at least on any server over a month or so old). Leveling to cap (75) could be done in a (long) day (3 days being closer to the average time though) without ever actually having to play the character (power leveling was the norm) and tier 2 gear could be randomly rolled on guild vendors en-mass for next to nothing. Tier 1 gear needed to be crafted on those same vendors though, so a guild that was both established and good enough to hold the rare ingredients mines fairly often worked best to get that, farming it from mobs was a grind. Other than that is was mostly being good enough, or having friends that were or just lots of them, to kill everyone close enough to a set spawn point to interfere or ninja loot when it was time for it to spawn.
    That's because it was pvp. It didn't matter how easy it was to level/gear because once you leveled up and geared you could go mess with other players. If they made ddo the same way where you could get all the xp you needed in 3 days and the best gear, what would you do then? How long are you going to keep playing a toon that has no further use for any form of xp and has all the gear you need?

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It just doesn't provide much incentive to do so. Each EE once and what then as I'm not much of a gear hound? So it's pretty much a choice of playing the character in a nerfed state or not having much reason to play it at all. Which generally means the latter.
    Let's be honest, if you are not much of a gear hound (I am the same way) then even if your twists were maxed and your character was not in a nerfed state there still wouldn't be much of a reason to play at all. That is the real reason people TR. There is nothing to do in this game other than TR. Don't get me wrong. It is this way in all MMO's. You either PvP (which is pointless), grind for gear (which will always be replaced by better gear released at a later date and which generally takes too much effort for the minor boost in power it gives you), or you play a new character (which always felt like a waste of time to me because my loss of interest in the first character at level cap just means I can look forward to the same when I level the new character). Enter TRing. Now you get to play a new character but without its being a complete waste of time (because it is adding to the power of your original character). It does indeed give only a small amount of extra power, but considering most games are more fun at lower levels than they are at higher levels TRing gives you the ability to play through the game again while still adding power to the same character. It really is a good alternative to leaving the game (which is what I normally do shortly after reaching the level cap in games). If you are not much of a gear hound you should really try to embrace TRing. These two things are all the game has to offer in terms of end game.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    It's more like enjoying your current job, but being told that if you ever want to advance in your current job, you need to take a new job with a different skill set for less money and longer hours, and which is much less fun.

    It's a bit like if you started a wizard at level one. At level two, you weren't allowed to use any spells, but at level 3 you got new spells and you could use them all. At level four you lose all your spells again, but at level five you get new spells and can use all your spells. And so on... If someone is playing a wizard, they probably want to cast spells, not muddle through every other heroic level using Master's Touch and swinging a greataxe, though that is possible for some people to do. Would it sound reasonable to tell someone in that situation, "Sure, level two will suck and not be fun, but then you get more powerful at level three, so that's great! Level four sucks and isn't any fun, but when you get to level five you'll be more powerful and have fun! If you don't like the game design, no one is forcing you to do it; just stay at level one for your whole career."
    It is not uncommon for companies to take people that are on the management track and force them to work in every department. They do this so they will get experience in all the areas of the business which makes them a better manager. The ED situation sounds rather similar. You can stay in your current ED and be denied twists (promotions) or you can try out all the ED's (work in all the departments) and eventually get all your twists (be promoted to an upper management position). Those that don't want to jump through the hoops of working in every department (I was one of those) don't make it to upper management. Same with twists. Enjoy your maxed ED with no twists or try the other ED's as well. If you really want to get into management you may even choose to start working in your least favorite department and save your best department (most powerful ED) for last.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I don't think you can compare leveling in your "best" destiny while amassing XP to use in an "off" destiny with running an heroic ranger life in order to get an artificer past life feat.

    However, I do think the current system could be compared to a wizard who wants a barbarian past life feat for the extra 10 HP, and when they TR, they are required by game design to max INT and put all their skill points into Concentration and Spellcraft, and to spend all their enhancement points on spell-enhancing skills, and to only wear robes and carry wizard weapons. And then, by game design, they have to muddle through twenty levels of a wizard pretending to be a barbarian, all in order to get the past life feat they want to make themselves a bit more powerful later on.
    How terrible is your sorcerer that playing in an off destiny is as bad as that? Assuming your sorcerer was a reasonably well designed character for levels 1-19 you will find that it also plays remarkably similar for levels 20-28 in off destinies. If your sorcerer is that bad then you may need to TR him and put points in the right spots. Here are some hints. Put more points into CHA than you do into STR and put more points into Spellcraft than you do into Intimidate. That should help you make a sorcerer that can play the epic levels in an off destiny without its being as bad as you try to make it sound.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  16. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Some players Do want to earn what they have, others want to have what they havent earned. And all the things i between. And neither will ever accept the other point of view, so this discussion is rather pointless.
    Some people have a weird sense of 'earning'. It's usually mindless grinding as suppose to a real challenge. It's the idea of building brick walls in order to smash through them.

  17. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok;5101520[B
    ]You are not the best mesenger yourself[/B], you know.

    What you see as an improvement seems like sheer greed and folly to me. Thus you claiming that i cant see improvement where you claim it to be is foolish to say the least.

    You wish for the game to reward you for doing nothing, and tell me thats more fun. And claiming the way i see playing the game to be work. The whole point is that i dont see it as work, and cant understand why you complain about it being work.

    To clarify: getting all the rewards for doing an off destiny without actually taing the hit for doing it is wanting a reward you havent earned.

    That you feel you MUST have it makes you strive to get it, bt since you must do something you dont want to do to get it, you ask for it to be given free of charge. The cost you wish to evade is actually playing your way through that destiny.

    Ok, i can understand that you dont want to "gimp" your toon, since you want to get the twists and other EDs to make your toon more powerful. But that doesnt make make me understand why you wish to be granted that power for free.

    And all your arguments are, more or less, on the line of: since you disagree with my great idea, you must be wrong. My great idea is the greatest, after all.

    My main argument is always tanstaafl
    Missing of course the entire point of attacking the message, not the messanger. You don't know what motivates me and what I want - it's evident since you're not really talking about problems and solutions - just your assumptions about what I want, what I think and what I stand for. That's all I hear from you.

    Mathematically - lets assume doing all the destinies on EN is 15 mill.

    Who earns it more - doing all destinies to unlock all on EN or the person doing it all on EE for the fate points, EN or EH to get the ability? Your idea of 'earning' assumes the system we have now is optimal and that grinding 15 mill somehow is different then someone doing the same on EE. Because the other guy is doing it in a destiny that works with his class - and that's not 'work' or 'earning' enough for you.
    And for the umpten time - nothing is 'free'. Grinding 15 mill xp one way or the other way is the same time consumed, one just more challenging then the face roll on EN. If that's your idea of free I suggest you stay away from econ 101.

    You confuse pain with time/challenge. Every single time. The same people defending the old Reavers refuge rune system and not adding greensteel deconstruct that that as well. Confusing work and challenge.
    Last edited by patang01; 09-15-2013 at 12:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Let's be honest, if you are not much of a gear hound (I am the same way) then even if your twists were maxed and your character was not in a nerfed state there still wouldn't be much of a reason to play at all. That is the real reason people TR. There is nothing to do in this game other than TR. Don't get me wrong. It is this way in all MMO's. You either PvP (which is pointless), grind for gear (which will always be replaced by better gear released at a later date and which generally takes too much effort for the minor boost in power it gives you), or you play a new character (which always felt like a waste of time to me because my loss of interest in the first character at level cap just means I can look forward to the same when I level the new character). Enter TRing. Now you get to play a new character but without its being a complete waste of time (because it is adding to the power of your original character). It does indeed give only a small amount of extra power, but considering most games are more fun at lower levels than they are at higher levels TRing gives you the ability to play through the game again while still adding power to the same character. It really is a good alternative to leaving the game (which is what I normally do shortly after reaching the level cap in games). If you are not much of a gear hound you should really try to embrace TRing. These two things are all the game has to offer in terms of end game.
    This game needs a new end game, much like shroud and greensteel with something you create for your character with a vision you care for.

    When I look back to the 120 runs of shroud I had on my first toon I realized that I couldn't even remember counting all of them. Suddenly I just had 4 items, 3 cleansed and I felt like I had what I needed. Then of course Epic flew off the hinches and the race to 28 started. Then all that work was thrown out the window in a heart beat

    But up to that point I felt like I was creating the stuff I wanted. Strategies, tactics - con op, heal amp - readying me to solo every single one of the quests I could - just finding the appropriate combinations to get it done. All the time while I had hit 20 a long time ago.

    I wonder if there is a way to get a end game like that? Not to say shroud or ToD was ideal - but the incremental progress with shroud felt like you got rewarded each time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    That's because it was pvp. It didn't matter how easy it was to level/gear because once you leveled up and geared you could go mess with other players. If they made ddo the same way where you could get all the xp you needed in 3 days and the best gear, what would you do then? How long are you going to keep playing a toon that has no further use for any form of xp and has all the gear you need?
    I walked away from Neverwinter after 2 weeks. Why? I was at cap, and hadn't even played all the content, but there wasn't any point to continuing to play. Nothing was going to get any better.

    I do laugh at the people here complaining about "the grind" though. I played Rappelz for about 5 years, and I'll tell you, you have no concept of grind until you tried that back in e3/e4. I've been playing on Orien for about 9 months, maybe coming up on a year, not exactly sure, but in that time, I have accomplished more than I did in Rappelz in 5 years. The funny thing is, I had a good core group of friends and we played together a lot, so about half the time, I never noticed how much grinding I was doing, because I was having fun doing it. When I think about "bad" destiny leveling, I think about the little core group I play with, and frankly, even if we were all running "bad" destinys, I don't think we'd notice. We'd be too busy having fun to worry about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Who earns it more - doing all destinies to unlock all on EN or the person doing it all on EE for the fate points, EN or EH to get the ability? Your idea of 'earning' assumes the system we have now is optimal and that grinding 15 mill somehow is different then someone doing the same on EE. Because the other guy is doing it in a destiny that works with his class - and that's not 'work' or 'earning' enough for you.
    And for the umpten time - nothing is 'free'. Grinding 15 mill xp one way or the other way is the same time consumed, one just more challenging then the face roll on EN. If that's your idea of free I suggest you stay away from econ 101.
    So go do eh with your off destinies if en is too easy and you want a challenge. If your still rolling eh like its nothing then your not as gimp off destiny as you thought and go do ee. The devs did put variable difficulties into the game for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    You confuse pain with time/challenge. Every single time. The same people defending the old Reavers refuge rune system and not adding greensteel deconstruct that that as well. Confusing work and challenge.
    Who's defending old reavers in this thread? Nobody. If the devs wanted to make ED's as painful as old reavers it would randomly select your first destiny for you, then after you maxxed it randomly select your next one, and so on. That way there you might get one guy that starts right where he wants and 10 others that facepalm when they rolled magister on their barbs.

    Who's arguing against greensteel deconstruction in this thread? Nobody. Heck I don't ever really recall anyone arguing against gs deconstruction.

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