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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I take your point.

    Having said that, I think Past Life benefits and Twist of Fate benefits are like comparing easter eggs and enormous 4000 ton chocolate bunnies that could feed Africa indefinitely.

    Ranged characters:
    Probably want to be in fury. But need Pin and Otto's Whistler; a level 3 and 2 twist. That's a whole lot of plodding around the destiny map.

    Melee dps characters:
    Either want to be in fury or dreadnaught. But need either legendary tactics or sense weakness from the corresponding tree (as well as cocoon).

    Casters:
    Want Energy Burst if in magister/shiradi, and +3 DCs from magister if in draconic. And spell pen from draconic and fatesinger's Echoes if primarily in magister.

    The differences between those characters with and without twists is so large I consider those abilities basically obligatory to get at some point if you want to meaningfully finish your character. Past lives not so much.
    While your correct about the inequality in the above comparison to some extent there is also one other fundamental difference. While TRing is an inherent aspect of the game, and one can easily earn TR hearts in game via challenge material exchange, and is safe to say is a core aspect to DDO( going so far as to comment on the extreme saves of mobs in elite dif and the virtual NEED to have ground out all the relevant past life benefits to optimally play a DC specced caster.

    Meanwhile ED are entirely OPTIONAL one has to pay for the access to them, and then have the will and inclination to level them up. Not to mention a build viable enough on its own power that the ED abilities are complimentary rather then essential.

    So while anyone through simple play with a desire to explore various classes can enjoy and work through TRing EDs and their associated benefits are not meant to be foundation blocks for a builds ability. This seems blatantly apparent to myself.

    So while all those things you list may be indeed things certain play styles crave, they must not be seen nor treated as things a player must have for any content. Even EE should not be designed around the abilities of EDs. EDs should be the super powers we persue to reduce challenge, not to aquire it then demand more challenge.

    Thats what so many here still will forever seem to not grasp, in PnP the point to gain power is to be more capable and have an easier time of overcoming foes. This is especially true of wizards, who as the campaign progresses it becomes impossible for a DM to create encounters that will challenge a truly crafty wizard player while not totally castrating the rest of the party. granted some special enemy groups exist to greatly curtail a wizard like good old beholders and golems, but again a wizard will if smart have means to easily dispatch both foe types.

    From the scarab of golem bane making every golem a piece of tissue to a piece of fragile glass acting as the vessel for a single use spell casting item to hold a true strike so you simply crush the object while its in a little sack, casting the spell and throw the broke glass at the beholder. its eyes are all going bye bye for the immediate future and it goes bye by soon after.

    So while you want to say ED this and that are what you need to make a complete character that is not how Turbine sees it or ED would never have been made an optional aspect of the game.

    Until they just make ED part of epic lvls and not an addition arguments like your own will always fall flat. Why? Because believe it or not I personally encounter many in the 20+ game on DDO not using ED. They simply refuse to P2W and ED are that at its most blatant. If you oppose blatant P2W and use ED your a hypocrite of the worst kind.

  2. #202
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    Default A pondering about Sagas

    Now I dont own the newest content yet, but have read enough about these new saga rewards that I think perhaps unless I am totally missing something they sound alot like turbines attempt to give some kind of salve to this ache in our community.

    Now correct me if I am wrong, but with the new saga xp rewards could not one complete an arch using a viable destiny then swap over to an unliked one when collecting the reward as a way to speed up the process?

    Maybe Im just seeing HOW IT COULD work if it doesnt work like that yet.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Wouldn't playing every destiny for a little while actually be less repetitive then only playing one destiny?
    Actually it would if destinies had been set up more the way they envisioned them rather than how they were. This really isn't something I would call out the designers over either, as it's just a reality that the entire game shares. They had to be made to fit whats there, the same as the rest of the game was made to fit 3.5e D&D. The compromises between a developers vision and what it's got to fit in with are going to show.

    But since we have destinies that aren't really even close to being stand alone, regardless of the build using them, it would be nice if the devs would shake off the denial (charade?) that they are as they want them to be and set up mechanics that better reflect the reality of how they are.

    As I said before, after already going through GMoF on a Paladin, I didn't even bother wasting time at the trainer when I was in it on my fighter. 30% run speed that doesn't stack with my 30% striders is worthless, small bits of stacking SR with nothing to stack them with also worthless, anything that required KI or being centered again worthless. Even wisdom or charisma were functionally worthless for that character (at least the paladin got those out of it, despite how little relative effect they had).

    So no, basically playing without a destiny isn't less repetitive than playing with one because being in a monk, archer or wizard destiny doesn't make my fighter a monk, archer or wizard (the bard destiny actually does seem close to what they were aiming for, it's just not good to twist out of for any non-bard due to others not having songs).

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Then you'll never be satisfied, because no matter what you do, or how they ultimately set it up, you're going to have to bang your head into that brick wall leveling for Fate Points, even if it's in a Destiny you enjoy. You see, what I see happening is Turbine caves, and allows you to generate Fate Points while in a capped Destiny, and then people will complain that it takes too long to get the fate points that way too, and start asking to either a) get them automatically, or b) reduce the requirements for them. What you're not seeming to understand is that no matter what, you're going to have to run those quests over and over and over to achieve what you're trying to achieve, because they're not going to hand them to you on a silver platter, and they shouldn't. If you want it, you should earn it.
    Um, that's the reality on progressive advancement games. To be honest, I'm further from what you see me as than Turbine is. Personally I see xp potions, xp tomes, xp stones, vet status stc. as silly bribes to get lazy players into the game. Bravery Bonus I like in concept, but feel the execution is a bit generous (drop the max level needed to get it by 2 and it's about right IMO).

    The thing is, I like my progressive games to be progressive, not some sort of disjointed drop back 5 or 20 steps and start over. That just kills the immersion and turns it into a ticket punching meta-game.

    So no, you missed the mark with me. I have no problem with the rate of advancement. Really wouldn't mind if it was slower as that would extend the meaningful game time for a character. I realize there is a content limitation. I just am more into playing character centric games than player centric games (for an example of what I mean, from a players perspective TRing is a way to get a more powerful character. From the characters perspective it's some sort of ritual suicide and I'm really not into playing a lemming).

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Youre used to doing something at an optimum, and when you work at optimum you learn little (comparatively). That is why the non-optimums feel so awful.

    Its like applying for a new job after enjoying your old job, and then complaining that you have to learn the skills needed for it.
    No it's more like being physically small and being told you have to complete a season as an NBA center and an NFL lineman to progress. You may show up for practice every day and go through the motions, but you know if you ever get off the bench in a game you will be totally unsuited for the task.

    That's how I see playing in a poor destiny, going through the motions of playing DDO and just putting in the time, not actually playing the game. Many didn't even try to pretend otherwise and just piked on the bell.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    So while all those things you list may be indeed things certain play styles crave, they must not be seen nor treated as things a player must have for any content. Even EE should not be designed around the abilities of EDs. EDs should be the super powers we persue to reduce challenge, not to aquire it then demand more challenge.
    Nice theory and it would actually make sense if Turbine was more interested in the quality of the game than the profitability. The reality is that if the game requires compatible ED's to be actually functional in EE content, more players will buy ED's.

    That's not to say that they aren't interested in quality. But any development must justify it's cost financially. Be it in attracting more players, retaining current players or just selling players what they need to enhance the game experience. Because, in the end, in order for the game to even exist they have to keep the bean counters happy and bean counters don't give a fig how great a game might be if it's not making a profit competitive with other ventures it's investment could be used for.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Now I dont own the newest content yet, but have read enough about these new saga rewards that I think perhaps unless I am totally missing something they sound alot like turbines attempt to give some kind of salve to this ache in our community.

    Now correct me if I am wrong, but with the new saga xp rewards could not one complete an arch using a viable destiny then swap over to an unliked one when collecting the reward as a way to speed up the process?

    Maybe Im just seeing HOW IT COULD work if it doesnt work like that yet.
    Yes they could and I did for the week or so that the saga NPC's were available. Last I heard we can expect them back with the next update.

  8. #208
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    Gremlynn, your trolling started well, I even got lured in. But, for the last few pages the amount of spam you spew got so out of hand, that at the latest it's time to realize the futileness of arguing over internet (we all know the meme pic, yes?).

    Anyways, kudos for the thread opening, and first few pages with more or less constructive talk. Too bad about the trolls taking over.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    Gremlynn, your trolling started well, I even got lured in. But, for the last few pages the amount of spam you spew got so out of hand, that at the latest it's time to realize the futileness of arguing over internet (we all know the meme pic, yes?).

    Anyways, kudos for the thread opening, and first few pages with more or less constructive talk. Too bad about the trolls taking over.
    I'm sorry you feel anyone who disagrees with you is a troll. I really can't think of a viable solution to that problem.

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Yes, I think its a well designed system. If you want the benefits of a destiny...whether it be being able to twist something from that destiny, or just the levels to put towards your fate points, you have to actually play that destiny.

    Sure I could think of ways to make maxxing your fate points easier, but then, I'd think that would be a poorly designed system. If all you had to do was max ld and run around blitzing everything and you could somehow end up with every destiny maxxed, that = stupid.
    Not once have I stated I want a system where you stay in one destiny and level in another. Not once. Your inability to distinct between posters have been noted more then once.

  11. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Your problem is mainly one of attitude towards the work you have to do. You wish to have the endresult without going through the intermediary steps. I really cant blame you for it, but... well... The intermediary steps must be taken. Thats the way it goes in almost every thing (except premade meals, although you have to make the money for it)
    Games are not work; when you start treating entertaining as work then it's complete fail.

    There's only one system within DDO right now that punishes a person for actually wanting to unlock twists - epic destiny leveling in off destines.

  12. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    While we're at it, could I please get my ranger past lives while I'm leveling as an artificer, or vice versa? This is, after all, what is being requested. The ability to level up as Destiny X while playing Destiny Y. "But Rob, we only want the Fate Point credit", which comes from reaching milestones in each Destiny. It boils down to my opening question, getting credit for a past life that I didn't play because grinding out all the past lives I want for my character is boring, I mean, I have to play the same quests over and over ad nauseum, some lives completely gimped compared to what I'm used to, to get the [st]fate points[/st] past life feats I want. I mean, how dare Turbine actually expect me to play as something to get credit for playing as something, right? It's just not as fun as it could be...
    Again - leveling off destiny is NOT in any way shape and form like TRing heroic. Again - you will always use the perfect enhancement (as perfect as they are at their current state anyways - some are better then others) for the class you're playing. If you state that 'twists' are the equivalent of 'past life' it would be like leveling using your ideal destiny every single time to unlock that 'past life'. You will always be using the ideal enhancement for that class, making that char grow in power as it level. That's not true with off destiny leveling and that's why tying fate points to each destiny so counter productive. At least if I TR to get fate points I will always use the enhancement system that works with that class. And I'll never feel like I'm gimping my own progress as I level to get that past life.

    People who compare off destiny leveling to TRing seems to forget how enhancements work of classes (epic destiny being epic class enhancement).

    Very few are asking for getting credit for past life. They (and I) simply want to achieve it by playing in the destiny for that class. Unless you of course don't find TRing challenging enough and state that in order to earn that past life a toon has to be forced to play 2-3 different enhancement system that are not ideal for that class. Such as fighter on Sorc. Or Bard on Ranger. Gotta earn that past life right?

  13. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    While your correct about the inequality in the above comparison to some extent there is also one other fundamental difference. While TRing is an inherent aspect of the game, and one can easily earn TR hearts in game via challenge material exchange, and is safe to say is a core aspect to DDO( going so far as to comment on the extreme saves of mobs in elite dif and the virtual NEED to have ground out all the relevant past life benefits to optimally play a DC specced caster.

    Meanwhile ED are entirely OPTIONAL one has to pay for the access to them, and then have the will and inclination to level them up. Not to mention a build viable enough on its own power that the ED abilities are complimentary rather then essential.

    So while anyone through simple play with a desire to explore various classes can enjoy and work through TRing EDs and their associated benefits are not meant to be foundation blocks for a builds ability. This seems blatantly apparent to myself.

    So while all those things you list may be indeed things certain play styles crave, they must not be seen nor treated as things a player must have for any content. Even EE should not be designed around the abilities of EDs. EDs should be the super powers we persue to reduce challenge, not to aquire it then demand more challenge.

    Thats what so many here still will forever seem to not grasp, in PnP the point to gain power is to be more capable and have an easier time of overcoming foes. This is especially true of wizards, who as the campaign progresses it becomes impossible for a DM to create encounters that will challenge a truly crafty wizard player while not totally castrating the rest of the party. granted some special enemy groups exist to greatly curtail a wizard like good old beholders and golems, but again a wizard will if smart have means to easily dispatch both foe types.

    From the scarab of golem bane making every golem a piece of tissue to a piece of fragile glass acting as the vessel for a single use spell casting item to hold a true strike so you simply crush the object while its in a little sack, casting the spell and throw the broke glass at the beholder. its eyes are all going bye bye for the immediate future and it goes bye by soon after.

    So while you want to say ED this and that are what you need to make a complete character that is not how Turbine sees it or ED would never have been made an optional aspect of the game.

    Until they just make ED part of epic lvls and not an addition arguments like your own will always fall flat. Why? Because believe it or not I personally encounter many in the 20+ game on DDO not using ED. They simply refuse to P2W and ED are that at its most blatant. If you oppose blatant P2W and use ED your a hypocrite of the worst kind.
    Anyone doing their first life to 20 can (with the right gear) do most quest (heroic) on elite. TRing is therefore optional. Sure - 4 more ability points are nice and some of the other past life - but they're not required.

    If you want to do most quests on EE it's almost required that you a fully upgraded destiny and perhaps a few twists. It's about the only reasonable way you can shave off the many thousands of HP some critters have.

    EDs are not optional in any way shape and form. It's about the only way you have a fighting chance on EE. But - if all you're going to do is to play EN and EH then they're not needed.

  14. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Now I dont own the newest content yet, but have read enough about these new saga rewards that I think perhaps unless I am totally missing something they sound alot like turbines attempt to give some kind of salve to this ache in our community.

    Now correct me if I am wrong, but with the new saga xp rewards could not one complete an arch using a viable destiny then swap over to an unliked one when collecting the reward as a way to speed up the process?

    Maybe Im just seeing HOW IT COULD work if it doesnt work like that yet.
    I got 84k as a end reward before they removed it. I don't know how much you get for doing everything on EE with upgrade but you can get something like 80k for a 30 min EN Von 3 run. While an interesting idea it would probably one of the slower ways of grinding out XP for destiny leveling.

  15. #215
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Games are not work; when you start treating entertaining as work then it's complete fail.

    There's only one system within DDO right now that punishes a person for actually wanting to unlock twists - epic destiny leveling in off destines.
    Indeed, that is the problem, i just see it from a different point of view.Some people consider the endgame and being at the optimum power as the most important thing, aand thus consider every step until they reach it as work. Others consider the whole thing as being part of the game, and are entertained by every step.

    This causes the problem we see in this thread. A faction demanding change that wont help them since its their perception of the game that causes the problem, and another that cant understand why this change is necessary.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  16. #216
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Again - leveling off destiny is NOT in any way shape and form like TRing heroic. Again - you will always use the perfect enhancement (as perfect as they are at their current state anyways - some are better then others) for the class you're playing. If you state that 'twists' are the equivalent of 'past life' it would be like leveling using your ideal destiny every single time to unlock that 'past life'. You will always be using the ideal enhancement for that class, making that char grow in power as it level. That's not true with off destiny leveling and that's why tying fate points to each destiny so counter productive. At least if I TR to get fate points I will always use the enhancement system that works with that class. And I'll never feel like I'm gimping my own progress as I level to get that past life.

    People who compare off destiny leveling to TRing seems to forget how enhancements work of classes (epic destiny being epic class enhancement).

    Very few are asking for getting credit for past life. They (and I) simply want to achieve it by playing in the destiny for that class. Unless you of course don't find TRing challenging enough and state that in order to earn that past life a toon has to be forced to play 2-3 different enhancement system that are not ideal for that class. Such as fighter on Sorc. Or Bard on Ranger. Gotta earn that past life right?
    Actually, it is. It is because the game expects you to play as the destiny in order to get credit for playing it. No, maybe you're not going to twist anything in Magister, but you need to play through it to get the Fate Point to twist something else somewhere else. This is how it should be. TRing isn't really the point, the point was getting credit for past lives I didn't play as, which would be what getting additional Fate Points for playing in a maxed Destiny would be. They are the same in that they give you credit for doing something you haven't done. In my example, I would get a Ranger past life for playing Arti, or I would be able to max FotW while playing in Magister. How are these not the same thing in principle? If I'm going to grind out an impractical Destiny during a life, I am still always using the optimum enhancements. Let me emphasize this; IF I were going to. I'm simply not going to. I want three Ranger past lives on my arti to fit my play style, and I can play in each of the three Destinys to get the Fate Points, one per each life I plan to take. Now, since the synergy is there for all three, there really isn't a sub-optimal Destiny for Ranger.

    I can unlock the needed Fate Points for the magey tree the same way, all while playing as, you guessed it, an arti. The synergy is there for Arti, so really none of the three is "bad", even if one may or may not be better. I'm going with three Druid lives as well, for the augment to my dog. Now I don't have any experience with Druid, but if, as I suspect, staying shape shifted is primarily melee, I can perhaps take some melee Destinys, if needed, then. Really though, seeing as how I will ultimately be a ranged Arti, with minimal casting, it doesn't fit my play style, I don't really need the fighter PL Feats, so hey, I won't be playing any fighter, and probably won't need to play any of the melee centric Destinys. My pertinent twists will come from either the Rangery or Magey trees, and my build plan means that I'll never have to play in a sub-optimal, or maybe just a "bad" Destiny to get where I want to go.

    Regarding the "work for my entertainment" stance being laid out here, no matter how you do it, leveling up is work. The difference being, when I was working as an automotive technician, I loved my job, and so, I never "worked" a day of the time I spent doing it. When leveling up becomes not fun, I either make an alt, or take a break. It becomes not fun at all levels of play sometimes, and I take a break. It's the burnout factor, and frankly, rather than trudge though something I'm not enjoying, I'll step away from it. This is why my FvS got TRd at 24, I wasn't having any fun, and really saw no point in going the rest of the way to 25 just to do it. I already had my heart, and my Fate Points, so I TRd. The Destiny I didn't finish that life will be finished this life, and be more fitting, since the first life I was ranged, and this one is melee. The third life will also be melee, but ultimately, after that life, and then three ranger lives, I'm going back to my Elven Silver Flame AA FvS. I was TRd out of it prior to the Enhancement pass, so I don't know if I'll be an AA, or an AoV at the end of it all, but I do know that it will be fun to play, either way. I have to lay the groundwork first, but it will be worth it in the long run.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Indeed, that is the problem, i just see it from a different point of view.Some people consider the endgame and being at the optimum power as the most important thing, aand thus consider every step until they reach it as work. Others consider the whole thing as being part of the game, and are entertained by every step.

    This causes the problem we see in this thread. A faction demanding change that wont help them since its their perception of the game that causes the problem, and another that cant understand why this change is necessary.
    The biggest issue may be the gulf between EH and EE. One is pretty much auto-complete without destinies, the other isn't really so with them and silly without, at least for anyone I've played with. Spending some time in auto-complete land to get a destiny up is bad enough. But staying there for another 15 million xp just so some people feel you earned the twists by enduring the, not entertaining to many of us, exile there just seems silly. I just don't get the appeal of playing a game you really can't lose without making an effort to do so.

    To me the correct order would be to get one's ED, then earn twists in content that actually has a chance of beating us with breaks to get those things you want to twist (personally I'd rather be able to do this there too, but to many have propriety issues with that). Sure we could just forgo the twists, but that just leaves one wondering if maybe they shouldn't be putting the time into an alt that actually progresses from being played.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Actually, it is. It is because the game expects you to play as the destiny in order to get credit for playing it. No, maybe you're not going to twist anything in Magister, but you need to play through it to get the Fate Point to twist something else somewhere else. This is how it should be.
    Why? Other then this is the best way some dev could come up with, or this saved Turbine from having to code a separate xp counter for fate points. Tell me why you think the only way fate points should be gained is by playing in destinies that are incompatible to one's build?

  19. #219
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    I don't think you can compare leveling in your "best" destiny while amassing XP to use in an "off" destiny with running an heroic ranger life in order to get an artificer past life feat.

    However, I do think the current system could be compared to a wizard who wants a barbarian past life feat for the extra 10 HP, and when they TR, they are required by game design to max INT and put all their skill points into Concentration and Spellcraft, and to spend all their enhancement points on spell-enhancing skills, and to only wear robes and carry wizard weapons. And then, by game design, they have to muddle through twenty levels of a wizard pretending to be a barbarian, all in order to get the past life feat they want to make themselves a bit more powerful later on.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  20. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Indeed, that is the problem, i just see it from a different point of view.Some people consider the endgame and being at the optimum power as the most important thing, aand thus consider every step until they reach it as work. Others consider the whole thing as being part of the game, and are entertained by every step.

    This causes the problem we see in this thread. A faction demanding change that wont help them since its their perception of the game that causes the problem, and another that cant understand why this change is necessary.
    Well that's not the reason the system is terrible, but it seems to be the perception of others why you're against an improvement of the system. And yes - every single step of a game should be entertainment.

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