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  1. #1
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Default How Epic Destinies and Epic Xp Should Work

    Currently, in DDO there is a huge incentive to play DDO in the epic levels in a destiny which ill fits a particular class. I think that it is silly to run around in Legendary Dreadnaught on a cc/healing bard, or Draconic Incarnation on a fighter or Fury of the Wild on a wizard. The devs should not incentive this practice like they currently do. The first change I would make to the epic destiny system is that a player earns epic destiny xp in whatever destiny that they are playing in and can then allocate those destiny points in any destiny that they have access to (e.g. a fighter runs quests and earns destiny xp in legendary dreadnaught and then can allocate those points to Draconic Incarnation if they have Draconic unlocked).

    Some previous proposals have penalized players when they run in the prime destiny like for e.g. a players earns 50% of the xp in a capped destiny to be used in other destinies. I think that illogical. Why should there be any penalty? Why in the world would we provide an incentive a fighter to run in Draconic Incarnation which a penalty would do. Is it going to enrich the fighter's playing experience by running around in Draconic Incarnation? I think not. If the devs are worried about some sort of balancing issue i.e. the game is not balanced around players running in the primary destiny - swing the nerf bat on all destinies - just bat those down because a fighter running in Draconic Incarnation is dumb.

    The next change I would make to Epic XP is level 20 quests should not give the same xp as level 27 quests per minute. Level 27 should give more xp. Give the level 27 quests more xp so people are incentivized to run new content. The devs do a fabulous job making new quests so why the heck are so many people running Level 22 quests that have been released for 1-3 years. Come on now devs give the players more incentives to run newer content.

    This next change is a change that I would really like to see. Double or even tripple the xp awarded on epic elite. Why in the world does epic elite not give the same xp per minute as epic normal? Does this make any sense to anyone? At the very least epic normal and epic elite should give the same xp if not epic elite should give more. Give a first time bonus and saga bonus so players when they level want to run a variety, but when they have run out of quests which they will get them playing epic elite instead of epic normal or epic hard.

    What I would like to see in game is running my fighter Norg in epic elite at level 27 quests (29 on ee) in legendary dreadnaught instead of running Norg in epic hard or epic normal in level 22 quests in draconic incarnation. I would like to see tons of lfms for the new content on epic elite and all difficulties instead of what we have now which is basically none. Make it so Devs.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  2. #2
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I proposed a very simple method for handeling the destiny situation roughly a year ago, and the heroic enhncement system works very similar to how I think epic destinies should work. When you gain destiny XP you get a cache of points, and can put those points into any destiny. You can be in any destiny you want to be in while leveling. Making it work like AP works allows the player to run in any destiny they choose, and allocate points earned to any other destiny. Once a point is allocated to a specific destiny, its perminantly in that destiny. Destiny can still be reset and points spent in same destiny.

    Result: I can run around in shadowdancer on my rogue and make XP + put the points into caster destinies which do not benefit me whatsoever.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    -snip-
    I just want to say, that i am absolutely okay with current state of Epic destinies and that I neither demand, nor wish any changes.
    First of all, capping all destinies is a choice, definitely not a "need to have, so i can play".
    Switching into off destinies helps ppl understand those destinies in case they TR or, ifm they stay on Epic level forever, it helps them understand and test the twists they can use from each destiny.
    More so, I never ever farmed anything on epic levels and I have all detinies but one capped. About half of the capped ones are also maxxed. Yes, I did achieved it via TRing and then playing on capp, but it is very possible to achieve the same even with char locked in epic once and for all (especially since the new xp penalty removal system). If you are not happy with the way you decided to earn experience points for some epic destinies, dont blame game - instead, try to find a way ho to earn them in a manner that you would enjoy. If there is none... well, you really dont need to have all destinies capped in the first place.

  4. #4
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    I like the current set up. You have to dabble in and learn each destiny as you level it. Even if you aren't playing a class optimized for that destiny at least you have to take a bit of time to familiarize yourself with it before getting your fate points for it.

    If it really hurts you so much to play a build thats not optimum for a particular destiny a couple of well planned tr's can make it so that you never have to play a worthless destiny. A sorc/pal/monk hybrid for example could make use of pretty much every destiny. Best part is if you still have your LR20 left you can even use it at the end to reset to the build you want.

  5. #5
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I like the current set up. You have to dabble in and learn each destiny as you level it. Even if you aren't playing a class optimized for that destiny at least you have to take a bit of time to familiarize yourself with it before getting your fate points for it.

    If it really hurts you so much to play a build thats not optimum for a particular destiny a couple of well planned tr's can make it so that you never have to play a worthless destiny. A sorc/pal/monk hybrid for example could make use of pretty much every destiny. Best part is if you still have your LR20 left you can even use it at the end to reset to the build you want.
    It makes no sense whatsoever, from any standpoint, lore or mechanical, that someone should have to commit to a destiny to gain the XP. Thats like telling an arcane archer they have to commit to tempest if they want to spend points in it.

    It also makes no sense that someone should be forced to TR to enjoy the leveling experience. This is coming from someone who likes playing the entire game - but doesnt want to be forced to play an entirely different class on the same character just to level 2 destinies. If I wanted to play a wizard Id have rolled a wizard, or logged on my wizard. If I want to play a rogue, I should be able to choose a destiny, and then gain XP and spend the points how I see fit without the limitation of spending them in the same destiny I am committed to. We already know they can do this, because this is how AP works. You dont need to commit to mechanic to put points into the assassin tree.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post

    The next change I would make to Epic XP is level 20 quests should not give the same xp as level 27 quests per minute. Level 27 should give more xp. Give the level 27 quests more xp so people are incentivized to run new content.
    And for those of us who don't own the new content?

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    This is an interesting circle back to the same question that has been posed since ED leveling has been available.

    First to clarify some points...

    Why do people feel they need to earn XP to level something they are not using?

    Between the time Epics first came out people ran quests not for XP (They couldn't earn any more) but for Gear. At the time it was in the form of Items, Scrolls, Shards and Seals. Of course with MOTU came gear that made the Epic gear at the time nearly obsolete (with some exceptions) with simple Random Gen. Gear.

    However, now they created 5 new levels and a bunch of Epic Destinies that also required XP to progress. XP once again became important.

    With EDs also came the "Twist" the ability to bring in an ability that has been unlocked from another destiny. The problem is that to do so cost Fate Points and to earn Fate Points requires 3 ED Levels.

    So Turbine built in an incentive to allow people to earn 3 abilities from up to 3 different EDs. The requirement being they have to have them unlocked and enough Fate Points to purchase them.

    For me the incentive of leveling EDs lies in getting enough fate points and unlock the Twists that I see as beneficial to supplement my primary Epic Destinies (I've discovered that each class can benefit from more than one destiny depending on the situation)

    -----------------------------------------------
    If I was to recommend a change to the system, I would put that recommendation around how to earn fate points. I would untie them ED levels and instead have them as their own XP bar. I would also have it be an XP choice to use XP in the current ED or apply it to Fate Point earning.

    This would allow earning of XP for the Fate points outside of ED leveling. This would free players to only leveling EDs for the abilities they want to unlock and allow them to play in EDs that they want to utilize.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This next change is a change that I would really like to see. Double or even triple the xp awarded on epic elite. Why in the world does epic elite not give the same xp per minute as epic normal? Does this make any sense to anyone? At the very least epic normal and epic elite should give the same xp if not epic elite should give more. Give a first time bonus and saga bonus so players when they level want to run a variety, but when they have run out of quests which they will get them playing epic elite instead of epic normal or epic hard.
    For the love of all that is holy make this so.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I proposed a very simple method for handeling the destiny situation roughly a year ago, and the heroic enhncement system works very similar to how I think epic destinies should work. When you gain destiny XP you get a cache of points, and can put those points into any destiny. You can be in any destiny you want to be in while leveling. Making it work like AP works allows the player to run in any destiny they choose, and allocate points earned to any other destiny. Once a point is allocated to a specific destiny, its perminantly in that destiny. Destiny can still be reset and points spent in same destiny.

    Result: I can run around in shadowdancer on my rogue and make XP + put the points into caster destinies which do not benefit me whatsoever.
    Excellent idea. But what about twists?

  10. #10
    Community Member NXPlasmid's Avatar
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    Default I agree!

    I agree completely with the OP. ED XP should accumulate like enhancement points and be usable in any ED. You could make a 20% xp penalty when playing in a maxed out destiny or something along those lines...
    On Khyber: Tchpostick (Monk 20) Tablespoon (WF barb20), Pspoon (Eleven Cleric20), Tsirio (Halfling Bard18), Silvr (Human Rogue2/Wizard18), Ladle (Elven Cleric11), Forq (Human Bard14), Sporkk (Human Fighter lvl20), Tspatula (monk20)

  11. #11
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It makes no sense whatsoever, from any standpoint, lore or mechanical, that someone should have to commit to a destiny to gain the XP. Thats like telling an arcane archer they have to commit to tempest if they want to spend points in it.
    Does it make sense that you have to commit to a class to gain XP in that class? What you're asking for, from my perspective, is akin to asking to be able to work toward a Wizard past life while playing as a pure rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If I wanted to play a wizard Id have rolled a wizard, or logged on my wizard. If I want to play a rogue, I should be able to choose a destiny, and then gain XP and spend the points how I see fit without the limitation of spending them in the same destiny I am committed to.
    So you effectively want the advantages of having gaining experience in a destiny without having experienced the destiny? How does that make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    We already know they can do this, because this is how AP works. You dont need to commit to mechanic to put points into the assassin tree.
    You're equating destinies to multiple enhancement trees of a single class, when you should be comparing them to single trees of multiple classes.

  12. #12
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Completely agree with the OP.

    -The 'I need to cap my off-destinies to unlock my twists of fate' game is not remotely enjoyable at the moment.

    -Letting us get xp for off-destinies while in an actually enjoyable destiny means we can run interesting (read new "EE") content without being burdensome on a party.

    -EE xp is not much above hard which is insane given the completion time and chance of failure differential.

    The simple changes suggested would change the lfm panel from being primarily 'daily EN von 3 x 3' and 'eh motu chains' to something reflecting the fact we had an expansion and level cap increase in the past month.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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  13. #13
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    If I was to recommend a change to the system, I would put that recommendation around how to earn fate points. I would untie them ED levels and instead have them as their own XP bar. I would also have it be an XP choice to use XP in the current ED or apply it to Fate Point earning.
    This is a easy change that would solve the problem...

    If you want to twist in an ability in some other ED, you should have to run in that ED and earn the ability.

    But if all you want is fate points, you should be able to do that in your primary ED.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  14. #14
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    Does it make sense that you have to commit to a class to gain XP in that class? What you're asking for, from my perspective, is akin to asking to be able to work toward a Wizard past life while playing as a pure rogue.
    Destinies are not class specific. Was literally said so by the devs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    So you effectively want the advantages of having gaining experience in a destiny without having experienced the destiny? How does that make sense?
    Nope, I want the advantages of spending fate points to gain more power associated with my specific build. Im not interested in power from a specific destiny that has nothing to do with my build.

    It doesnt make sense however you slice it, that a fighter should have to lose over half their power to fight in melee and study magic just to level a destiny to gain a fate point they are going to spend for the purpose of fighting better in melee. Tethering that to learning magic doesnt fit thematically, nor does it make sense lore wise. If I wanted to twist something from magister on my fighter it would make sense, but not if I want to spend the point on a twist in a melee destiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    You're equating destinies to multiple enhancement trees of a single class, when you should be comparing them to single trees of multiple classes.
    Nope, I am looking at the way it is coded and observing that we already have a system which uses the same tech. This makes people understand that it can be done and staves off folks who would claim "it would be a huge undertaking" - as they often do in order to dismiss ideas that would allow players to enjoy playing the game the way they want to.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-04-2013 at 01:31 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #15
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Or just add shears back with out the op bug.

  16. #16
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    I understand that many players don't like leveling an ED that is useless to them, because it's not their prime ED and while they're doing so cannot use their prime ED abilities.

    But well.... then... don't?

    I don't think it is plausible that a character could gain XP in one ED and use it for another ED.
    That's like:

    Ok, I am baker (prime ED). I keep baking (being in the prime ED and using its abilities) and by this gain experience in tailoring (another ED). Sorry, but life doesn't work that way. If I want to gain experience in tailoring, I have to work as a taylor. Baking bread just doesn't get me more routine in sewing pants.

  17. #17
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    <snip>
    Yes please!

    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    . well, you really dont need to have all destinies capped in the first place.
    This stopped being true when Epic Destiny Feats were introduced into the game last update. They require Capped Destinies.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

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  18. #18
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    For the love of all that is holy make this so.
    Hell no! For god's sake, EE isn't hard enough to deserve triple the XP. MAYBE the first time bonus on EE should be 100% instead of 20% but we learn the quests to quickly, gear makes a huge difference and a good party makes even EE look like Candyland.
    Characters - Brion, Damerchant, Deathbot, Goode-, Minusten, Sepiriz, Spiritstrike, Stee, Steilh, Vorpaal, Wyllye, Yaga, Yagalicious, Yga. RIP - Catpizzle and Qazpe
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  19. #19
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Or just add shears back with out the op bug.
    or this.

  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaga_Nub View Post
    Hell no! For god's sake, EE isn't hard enough to deserve triple the XP. MAYBE the first time bonus on EE should be 100% instead of 20% but we learn the quests to quickly, gear makes a huge difference and a good party makes even EE look like Candyland.
    EE should be double EH XP at least.

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