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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    If there is a better way to evaluate the popularity of a quest or raid than how frequently it is run I'm sure Turbine would love to hear it.

    I'm certainly curious what yardstick you think would be more accurate.
    Locking mechanics certainly warp that methodology.

  2. #442
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I’ve been writing software for a living now for WELL over two decades. The difference between software that makes it big and software that has its brief fifteen minutes of fame comes down to basically one thing: vision. If you ain’t got it, no amount of data is going to give that to you. What’s clear to me is that no one at Turbine has it any more.
    Well, to be fair, this MMO has lasted 7.5 years and has been profitable. I'm guessing even VERY profitable with all the DDO store stuff they've sold in the last 2 years (Ottos, tomes, by-pass timers, SP pots, exp pots). Even if DDO closed tomorrow, it was definitely successful software.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  3. #443
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    Citing stats shows you have two specific weaknesses: a) you don’t have a vision, and b) you haven’t a clue as to what your own consumer base wants. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have to rely on stats to make your point.

    You don't need to collect data or rely on stats to learn about your market demographic, you just need to 'know' what it wants. Brilliant. I'm sure that concept will help future MMO developers save millions in market research.

    This is seriously approaching Shade 'math is bad' territory.



    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I’ve been writing software for a living now for WELL over two decades. The difference between software that makes it big and software that has its brief fifteen minutes of fame comes down to basically one thing: vision. If you ain’t got it, no amount of data is going to give that to you. What’s clear to me is that no one at Turbine has it any more.

    So, again, don’t lecture me about data, and software options. You haven’t a clue as to what you’re talking about.

    Writing code and analyzing data are not the same thing. Having 20 years experience in the one, does not by any stretch of the imagination make someone an authority on the other. In fact, while code monkeys might design and maintain how data is collected and reported, they are almost never the ones doing analysis of said data. This is not news. Nor is it worthy of acting like a Shetland pony is a high horse.

  4. #444
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Well, to be fair, this MMO has lasted 7.5 years and has been profitable. I'm guessing even VERY profitable with all the DDO store stuff they've sold in the last 2 years (Ottos, tomes, by-pass timers, SP pots, exp pots). Even if DDO closed tomorrow, it was definitely successful software.

    Thrudh you keep forgetting every armchair captain of industry on the forum knows the market, product, implementation, and, well, everything better than those people who actually turned a living room business into a multi-million dollar company, or the people who actually RUN multi-million dollar companies.


    Similar phenomenon occurs on sports web sites where everyone and his dog knows better than the coach, GM, and owner. They are just less civil about it.

  5. #445
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pleasegimmie View Post
    Locking mechanics certainly warp that methodology.

    I disagree. The 3-day lock out can be factored in, as well as observing the sale and use of raid bypass timers. Use/run frequency is still probably the best way to determine how popular something is.

    Heck, to a lesser degree, that's exactly what the OP is trying to use to make conclusions about DDO popularity.

  6. #446
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    so much to read so little time, i stopped at page 18...
    As for reasons why people have stopped playing, this is what they told me, not in any particular order:

    new players:
    Graphics look old on korthos.
    running with TR's who give advise they dont fully understand like: its easy, just get item Z, X, Y, each costing more then they earned getting to level 4, only to find out its useless by the time they do get it.
    Veteran players trolling newer players.
    Comming of of Korthos and getting overwhelmed in the harbor.
    Pvp not being ballanced like WoW or Aion (wich they are not), angry that they dont get to kill that fully ED farmed lv 25 sorc or something like it.
    Not being able to hit stuf like that stupid fighter whille playing a 8/20/6/10/16/11 statted drow ranger/rog xxXdrizzleXxx clone, not realizing and unwilling to learn from other players that dual weilding dual kopeshes without the propper build doesn't work.
    Game is too hard, most lfm's are for Elite runs.
    Lfm's don't get posted or used.
    Slimes keep breaking gear and muckbane is too expencive.

    these are only a few reasons people told me why they left, should we cater to all of them?
    Some things have already changed like the harbor, the chance to hit, etc.
    My personal opinion on this is: don't dumb things down anymore.

    Veteran players(for this example +3 years)
    Tired of the tr grind
    angry over epic parts not dropping after 120 runs (shards/seals etc)
    Angry over Motu, giving easy epic gear away where they had to spend 3 years of grinding. (pdk/villager etc comm's)
    The bad story writing since U14 (e.g. commoner Anna vs Loth), most tell me it all feels so genericly blend.
    the bad gear, they didn't mind upgrading gear, assuming it actualy was a better.
    Not getting the prommissed raids, raids slowely dieing out. People loosing the social aspect of the community.
    dealing with newbies during tr grinding made them solo up to lv 10 ish before using the lfm, hoping it would filter out part of the problem, that or using channel/set tr partners to fill the group. Slowing down leveling and loosing the social aspect, again.
    Gear nerfs, this realy anoyed people, not just the ml 0 rings but also the terror greatsword, not upgrading carnifex/ minos legends etc whille the rest did get an upgrade.
    The plethora of bugs and the anoyance of getting cosmettics over bug fixes (not talking bout the ladder one, but the crippeling ones)
    The bug tool, nuff said
    communication with turbine, forum mostly.
    Exp nerfs.
    Buffing raids to peddle your Epic Destiny wares, we noticed turbine, we noticed.
    The emptiness of the generic commoner class past lv 20.
    Returning bugs (pale master slaying in the city? DW on a pale master) taking longer to fix then nerfing stuf or stopping an exploit?
    Large open area's to get to quest/raid, lots of them are parents that dont have long enough for a 1 hour getting there, The Devs Tod/vale etc understood this better then the ones that did LoB/stormhorns, a one time flaging should be enough, nobody wants to see: afk breast feeding kid from their healers.
    (stop sendingg me pictures proving you can game and breastfeed at the same time!)
    Having to wait for years on things turbine prommised them many years ago.
    Bait and Switch tactics.
    The lag/DC-ing that U19 brought.
    Items and clickies having unique background and propperties now being replaced with generic trash????
    strangely enough no one spoke about the down time???
    the list goes on and on...

    My thoughts on this:

    I miss old friends, i see many of them log on each day for the daily dice and some chatting, each update they ask what changed, sigh and log of again. They refuse to play. but they do ramp up log ins.
    DDo seems to be bleeding playes, new and old alike, i have no numbers to confirm this, so it's just a gut feeling but i fondly remember doing 1-2 raids each day and the lfm filled with pugs. i'm a member of 3 active channels but i still see raids being shortmanned. I still see lfm's up for Korthos/harbor, waiting 20 min and being shortmanned.

    I highly doubt the devs will bother to read this far, let allone responce or do anything about it.I'm not even sure they can do anything about it, some Bobo upstairs has set the course, all they can do is shovle more coal into the fire.
    Changing this game into generic Mc WoW clone will only help to kill it faster.
    We as players can do so much to help out, writting good stories, develop good gear etc, will they allow us? who knows, the foundry seems to be well used in STO and NW. A lot of the stories and gear suggestions on the forums seem to be better thought and ballanced out then anything i have seen since U14.

    I would love to see a statement from the lead dev on this.
    Last edited by lyrecono; 09-10-2013 at 01:08 AM. Reason: typo's corrected

  7. #447
    Community Member ThreeEyedBob's Avatar
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    Here is my 2 cents;

    Revamp all the old raids with an Epic difficulty set to lvl 28. Plan for an upgrade of them all to new lvl cap 30 with the next xpac.

    Revamp new epic lvl 28 versions of the old Epic gear. Let us create those new lvl 28 epic raid items by adding the base item with a new raid token at the epic altar. Keep the lvl 20 old epics as they are but consider removing the shard/seal/scroll system with a similar token system like the proposed lvl 28 version.

    All you need to do with the old Epic gear is slap on some augment slots, tweak up stat/ability levels and refresh a few of the very subpar items, and voila! New ML28 epics.
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  8. #448
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    Default Exactly! +1 OP!

    I could not have said it better myself. I agree with every point.
    This game NEEDS us to be more social. To have more interaction with people outside our normal group. This is what will reduce the complaints of no one posting LFMs. This will get more people into guilds. Make folks PUG more.

    I absolutely agree with the point about Shroud. It is the best made raid(or quest TBH) in the game. It is the perfect place to evaluate people for possible guilding and such. People MUST listen and follow instructions to get through it the first few times.
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  9. #449
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You don't need to collect data or rely on stats to learn about your market demographic, you just need to 'know' what it wants. Brilliant. I'm sure that concept will help future MMO developers save millions in market research.
    You would be amazed at the relevance of that. There is a massive market and huge factor among the R&D and CS for all the top companies to have people who have insight into the minds of Customers on their payroll. In fact, the people who can carve the good ideas from the bad ones out of an old MMO, by simply looking at it, and then working on new ideas to replace the bad ones, are without a doubt the most sought after designers ever, and worth more then any numbers you will ever get. From consultants to on sight staff, a person with an eye for design is worth more then any numbers you will ever possess.

    As far as MMO's go, well, possessing that "Know" is how some people have a reputation of being able to bring a dead game back to life, while others have a rep for being able to sink any ship. If it was a simple as looking at metrics and numbers, it would be impossible to make mistakes in game development, and we all know it's not. Good MMO development is it's about having people on working o it that tangible "know" of what the players want.

    Sorry if that hurts some peoples feelings because they have a thing for math and think it solves all problems, it may be great to figure out the DPS of a Khopesh, but it won't solve for X why Customer is unhappy.

  10. #450
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You would be amazed at the relevance of that. There is a massive market and huge factor among the R&D and CS for all the top companies to have people who have insight into the minds of Customers on their payroll. In fact, the people who can carve the good ideas from the bad ones out of an old MMO, by simply looking at it, and then working on new ideas to replace the bad ones, are without a doubt the most sought after designers ever, and worth more then any numbers you will ever get. From consultants to on sight staff, a person with an eye for design is worth more then any numbers you will ever possess.

    As far as MMO's go, well, possessing that "Know" is how some people have a reputation of being able to bring a dead game back to life, while others have a rep for being able to sink any ship. If it was a simple as looking at metrics and numbers, it would be impossible to make mistakes in game development, and we all know it's not. Good MMO development is it's about having people on working o it that tangible "know" of what the players want.

    Sorry if that hurts some peoples feelings because they have a thing for math and think it solves all problems, it may be great to figure out the DPS of a Khopesh, but it won't solve for X why Customer is unhappy.
    I agree with Ungood, there's plenty to "just knowing" not trying to toot my own horn but I KNOW Raids and having a block of "end game" content are important for players motivation. EVEN IF THEY DON'T PLAY THEM. I know because I'm looking at level 26 through 28 and wondering why I should bother leveling? There's nothing to do.... I KNOW this is a demotivational factor, and I KNOW DDO is suffering at least a significant amount of attrition due to the boredom of "nothing to do when I cap" along with the boredom of quests never being "unknown" except the first time you run them with no one who has done it. I KNOW the game was healthier when it had a 20lvl cap and 8 or 9 raids and a dozen "Epics" were commonly on display in the LFM panel every hour all day and night, and here we are a year later, and the player base appears to have declined by a very large number. And the common factor is there's nothing left to do that's RELEVANT once you cap to 25 or now 28... 2 raids does not replace 8 or 9 and a dozen epics that all had a couple items that were sought after. When all that gear became obsolete gear and no longer sought after, a huge chunk of the game became disused and abandoned.

    The simple fact of the matter is plenty of MMO's have "data" and yet almost every one of them fails/goes F2P and a huge number of them shut down in the first year. Data can be used to reach WRONG conclusions, just ask anyone who liked SWG before the NGE.

    Turbine thinks raids don't matter, because only a small percentage play them, but they fail to account for the "I'm just going to TR one more time to get my character powerful so I can start raiding" factor.

    There's nothing to shoot for, there's no reason to level to 28, and apparently VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE BOTHERING based on how rare level 25+ LFM's are. Played or not, when you take away the things you're gearing up for, Multi-TR'ing for, making newer and more powerful/survivable alts for; then you get people wondering what the point is...

    Quick and dirty revamp of endgame solves so many problems I'm frankly shocked that the Devs aren't already doing it. They are going to epic another old pack, like eGH according to them because eGH was very popular (indeed more popular than the "expansion")... Take this a step further turbine and revamp old endgame... just quick and dirty... boost the loot to 28th level standards , boost the mob CR's Give us something to DO and we wont leave as much between updates.
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-09-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  11. #451
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You don't need to collect data or rely on stats to learn about your market demographic, you just need to 'know' what it wants. Brilliant. I'm sure that concept will help future MMO developers save millions in market research.

    This is seriously approaching Shade 'math is bad' territory.
    Yeah, I tell you what: you go out and collect "market data" on what the MMO community wants, then write a game. You know what you'll get? A flop.

    Market-driven data is "leadership by consensus" for people who don't have the stones to claim that they are leading by consensus. And yeah, I've seen it fail about a dozen times in the last 30+ years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Writing code and analyzing data are not the same thing. Having 20 years experience in the one, does not by any stretch of the imagination make someone an authority on the other. In fact, while code monkeys might design and maintain how data is collected and reported, they are almost never the ones doing analysis of said data. This is not news. Nor is it worthy of acting like a Shetland pony is a high horse.
    Writing a software application or suite is not just writing code. And if you don't know that, then the rest of your comments are a waste of bits and bytes on the interwebs.

    You've got to know the business.

    You have to know the market.

    Having a bunch of reports that tell you what the market wants is about as useful as pulling something out of your *** and using that as a guide. Mainly because if you don't already know the proper questions to ask, the answers you receive will be basically worthless.

    You think the people who make up the surveys know everything there is to know about a specific market? That answer is that they usually have about as much knowledge as the people who commission them to make the survey in the first place.

    There are exceptions to this, but for the most part what you have is someone who doesn't know a market asking someone else who doesn't know a specific market to create a bunch of questions about the market to find out what the market wants.

    The only way to know a specific market is to have years and years of experience in that area to be able to make the correct decisions about what direction you want to go. Even with that, it is no substitute for vision, which is the driving force that actually MAKES a market.

    It is vision that creates a product where nothing like it existed before.

    It is also vision that keeps that product alive. You think that Apple is living off the largess of the Apple IIe or Microsoft off of Windows 3.1? In fact - whether you like the guy or not - it was Bill Gates who literally forced IE into the forefront of the OS, which is why we have what we have today.

    No amount of marketing data is going to tell you what the next, best step for a product because virtually no survey in the world is going to be able to tell you what a customer never knew they needed before. Nor will they tell you when that product will hit the right time in a specific market to be popular.

    Why this is such a hard concept for people who allegedly have experience in the business world is beyond me.

  12. #452
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Thrudh you keep forgetting every armchair captain of industry on the forum knows the market, product, implementation, and, well, everything better than those people who actually turned a living room business into a multi-million dollar company, or the people who actually RUN multi-million dollar companies.


    Similar phenomenon occurs on sports web sites where everyone and his dog knows better than the coach, GM, and owner. They are just less civil about it.
    Yeah, you're a great one to talk.

    You have zero idea where some people come from , or what they are doing.

    Likewise, it is completely idiotic to think that people who run multi-million dollar corporations are some sort of monolithic, can-do-no-wrong caste of business society. Last time I checked, Enron didn't fare so well under "astute" leadership, nor GM, no Chrysler.

    One could say that your serious lack of insight into developing a product makes you nothing more than a narrow-minded paper-pusher pretending to have insight into for which you have zero experience.

    Well...that's my guess anyways...

  13. #453
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I agree with Ungood, there's plenty to "just knowing" not trying to toot my own horn but I KNOW Raids and having a block of "end game" content are important for players motivation. EVEN IF THEY DON'T PLAY THEM. I know because I'm looking at level 26 through 28 and wondering why I should bother leveling? There's nothing to do.... I KNOW this is a demotivational factor, and I KNOW DDO is suffering at least a significant amount of attrition due to the boredom of "nothing to do when I cap" along with the boredom of quests never being "unknown" except the first time you run them with no one who has done it. I KNOW the game was healthier when it had a 20lvl cap and 8 or 9 raids and a dozen "Epics" were commonly on display in the LFM panel every hour all day and night, and here we are a year later, and the player base appears to have declined by a very large number. And the common factor is there's nothing left to do that's RELEVANT once you cap to 25 or now 28... 2 raids does not replace 8 or 9 and a dozen epics that all had a couple items that were sought after. When all that gear became obsolete gear and no longer sought after, a huge chunk of the game became disused and abandoned.

    The simple fact of the matter is plenty of MMO's have "data" and yet almost every one of them fails/goes F2P and a huge number of them shut down in the first year. Data can be used to reach WRONG conclusions, just ask anyone who liked SWG before the NGE.

    Turbine thinks raids don't matter, because only a small percentage play them, but they fail to account for the "I'm just going to TR one more time to get my character powerful so I can start raiding" factor.

    There's nothing to shoot for, there's no reason to level to 28, and apparently VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE BOTHERING based on how rare level 25+ LFM's are. Played or not, when you take away the things you're gearing up for, Multi-TR'ing for, making newer and more powerful/survivable alts for; then you get people wondering what the point is...

    Quick and dirty revamp of endgame solves so many problems I'm frankly shocked that the Devs aren't already doing it. They are going to epic another old pack, like eGH according to them because eGH was very popular (indeed more popular than the "expansion")... Take this a step further turbine and revamp old endgame... just quick and dirty... boost the loot to 28th level standards , boost the mob CR's Give us something to DO and we wont leave as much between updates.

    I have several lv 25's that i couldn't be bothered to get to 28,
    My main has 17 lives, fully geared in double slotted EE items, fully upgraded CitW waponset, fully upgraded dragon armor, +5 (grinded) tomes around the board, minimum +3 to all skills, +4 to 6 skills, and +2 to umd tomes and full ED's and i rarely played him since the update, there is nothing at 26-28 i want for him.
    In the past i could atleast 6 different raids up each evening and a shroud nearly every 30 minutes.
    In those raids we had our fun, talked, socialised, greased stairways etc, be active. this patern atleast seems to be inactive.

    I loved the raids, they were a social gathering of geeks alike.

    Now what incentive do we have to run them?

    Old raids are rarely run, mostly out of nostalgic value, gear got outclassed and it takes to long for first lifers to get it, tr's will have other gear to get to get to 20, the Exp is is subpar because in turbines wisdom to make them more difficult (in preperation for ED's?), they made them to hard to be run at level on elite (BB and all)

    If you make raids more difficult atleast do it by other means then adding saves/hp/ac etc to the bosses and mobs in said raid.
    Evedence of this? i don't have it but,
    how many people run Tempest spine at level compaired to hound/vod/titan or abot at level?

    I want raiding to come back, but as of now just playing heroic Eberron content looks more tempting.

    I mis the old dronken raid trains, naked tempest spine runs, greasing the shadow tank/stairs over the lava XD, Dancing toons in front of raid doors, having some old guy talk about thac0 and the artwork of the first Editon, heck even pickers fate last second puzzle disabling, the chatter and exitement over the comming pack (instead of all the doom about bad loot design and blend writting), etc etc.

  14. #454
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You don't need to collect data or rely on stats to learn about your market demographic, you just need to 'know' what it wants. Brilliant. I'm sure that concept will help future MMO developers save millions in market research.

    This is seriously approaching Shade 'math is bad' territory.

    Writing code and analyzing data are not the same thing. Having 20 years experience in the one, does not by any stretch of the imagination make someone an authority on the other. In fact, while code monkeys might design and maintain how data is collected and reported, they are almost never the ones doing analysis of said data. This is not news. Nor is it worthy of acting like a Shetland pony is a high horse.
    Kinda cute you guys are talking about data again, because when any data is brought to the table which doesn't support the "lights are still on so the game must be turning huge profits" theory, the source gets demonized and dismissed so predictably one could set a watch to it. The pattern based argumentation of those who blindly defend at all costs has been to demand evidence they know doesn't exist, and when some data does surface which supports the stance of those they are demanding evidence from, attack that source itself, as there is no refutation for their stance.

    Having 20 years experience in one means working DIRECTLY with folks in the other. The claims that someone's experience in the field is all irrelevant simply because they don't work for Turbine is an absurdity only unleashed by those who do not have an answer for the argument those people brought to the table, and hinges on the predictable method of demonizing/dismissing everything that does not support ones stance, including dismissing their own experience.

    How about laying down your own premise and defending it with the same level of evidence you demand from others? Challenging claims and dismissing everything which does not support the challenge, while hiding behind not having ones own premise, is getting old.

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