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  1. #421
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Well, here's hoping I do a good job of responding to different parts of your post.



    Named items should always, always, ALWAYS be better than any piece of random-gen trash of the same level. I have always thought of named items as artifacts: they were used by some powerful being and exhibits fewer/less powerful abilities in the hands of anyone else. So, it doesn't make sense to me that named items of a given level are less powerful than random-gen items of the same level.
    This is, imo, why Shadowfell was received so poorly. The quests themselves aren't bad, and they are aesthetically the best content in the game. But, the named loot is completely underwhelming. Other than the goggles, the gloves, and MAYBE the orb, there aren't ANY other named items that are tantalizing. This expansion simply lacks the juicy carrots to draw players in-- the majority of the items are outclassed by random-gen trash. So, after you run the quests on EE a few times and get comfortable with completing them, what is left to do?

    Look at GiantHold-- it had NUMEROUS epics which were very powerful and very sought-after. Dream Visor, True Globe, the Helms, Jorgundals, Djinn Rings, Manacles, Kardin's Eye, Ring of Shadows, Jeweled Cloak, and theres others too. And then theres the raid items. All of these were contenders for the best in-slot when EE. They gave a REASON to repeatedly run the content. GH would have drawn people for much longer too, if Turbine hadn't decided to cash in on fools and instead made them all BTA or BTC on acquire.

  2. #422
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    I agree with that assessment. I think the new Gianthold loot will be sought after by most players for some time. It's only the power-gamers who've gotten most or all of the loot they want from it already.
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  3. #423

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    In terms of "raids aren't popular" based on metrics, that's just silliness.

    I was in a guild that ran guild raids at 8pm every weekday night. 5 days a week the guild would get together and run a raid or two. That's a ton of raiding, but more relevant, that's a ton of social cohesion for a guild.

    Those raids represented a tiny % of the amount of questing I did each week. To infer that since most of my time was spent questing instead of raiding that I wouldn't care much about raids would be an epic statistics fail of the highest order.

    I fear that this epic statistics fail is writ large upon the development team's plans for the game, and for the first time I'm legitimately starting to worry for its future.

  4. #424
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In terms of "raids aren't popular" based on metrics, that's just silliness.

    If there is a better way to evaluate the popularity of a quest or raid than how frequently it is run I'm sure Turbine would love to hear it.

    I'm certainly curious what yardstick you think would be more accurate.

  5. #425
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    If there is a better way to evaluate the popularity of a quest or raid than how frequently it is run I'm sure Turbine would love to hear it.

    I'm certainly curious what yardstick you think would be more accurate.
    I would like to interject some points into this.

    Most typical 6 man quests are EXP grinds, so the ones with best exp/min get ground out countless times more then the low exp/min quests. So if you were to compare quests to raids, this would show a vast disparity of overall numbers between the two, where one is being window farmed the other has a 3 day timer.

    Most typical quests are high reward with lower risk, which is good because they are leveling material not normally done for the thrill but for a grind that Turbine built into their game with their TR system. While I love the TR system myself, lets be real here, it is a grind, so when I hit quests, I hate to say it, but I have done them before, I'll do them again, and I just kinda want to get them over with, and if I have to do that one quest a few times just to get that last bubble, yah, it's window time.

    At the other end of the spectrum, Raids are supposed to be two fold, both the loot and the challenge of the raid are part of their attraction. Their loot supposedly being the best in the game, and thus it is guarded by their challenge being the highest as well, to make getting the Raid Loot a notable achievement. If it dropped in any old box, there would be no sense of accomplishment (IE: Overcoming a Difficult Encounter) and thus no sense of achievement IE: "Look what I earned"

    So, while it stands to reason people will do more of a grind, that does not mean it's what they want more of, much like we do our day jobs more then we play tackle football with our friends out in the park, that does not mean that, that game of tackle football is worth less to us then the days we spend t work at our jobs, in many ways, that game day on the week end is worth soo much more, even if it done far less.

    The same could be said for raids and some of the player base. I guess like anything, there are each their own on their view of each part of the game.

    Just saying.. numbers aren't everything.

  6. #426
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
    Mark Twain
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_d...and_statistics

    You can make numbers support anything.

  7. #427
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In terms of "raids aren't popular" based on metrics, that's just silliness.

    I was in a guild that ran guild raids at 8pm every weekday night. 5 days a week the guild would get together and run a raid or two. That's a ton of raiding, but more relevant, that's a ton of social cohesion for a guild.

    Those raids represented a tiny % of the amount of questing I did each week. To infer that since most of my time was spent questing instead of raiding that I wouldn't care much about raids would be an epic statistics fail of the highest order.

    I fear that this epic statistics fail is writ large upon the development team's plans for the game, and for the first time I'm legitimately starting to worry for its future.
    That depends on how they compare their statistics. If they do it right and keep it in context, metrics can tke many factors into play. I doubt they look at a person's characters and compare how often they are "questing" versus how often they are "raiding". More likely, they look at the entire gaming population and see how many people overall are raiding at all. They don't even need to really compare it to how many people are questing.

    For instance, if you have a hundred people and only 5 of them raid on a regular basis, then it's safe to say that raiding isn't that "popular".

    I don't agree nor disagree at how "popular" raiding is, in in-game terms, and I have no real idea what metrics Turbine uses, but their are contexts in which "metrics" do make sense.

  8. #428
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post

    So, while it stands to reason people will do more of a grind, that does not mean it's what they want more of, much like we do our day jobs more then we play tackle football with our friends out in the park, that does not mean that, that game of tackle football is worth less to us then the days we spend t work at our jobs, in many ways, that game day on the week end is worth soo much more, even if it done far less.

    The same could be said for raids and some of the player base. I guess like anything, there are each their own on their view of each part of the game.

    Just saying.. numbers aren't everything.
    If it's done right, they wouldn't look at it from that point of view. Rather than looking at something that a person "has" to do, such as work or "quest to progress", they would likely take that out of the equation, for the most part.

    In your example of "football in the park", someone who's looking to gauge it's popularity would not compare it to the hours spent doing something "required" such as work but rather something during leisure hours. If they look at the park and see that only a small percentage of people play football as opposed to other sports they can determine how "popular" it is in relation to other sports and activities done by people in that park and thus allocate resources to it or other activities in some manner.

    No, numbers in and of themselves aren't everything. But "metrics", if done right, would put things in context in relation to those numbers.

    It would be foolish to compare how much time a player spends "questing" as opposed to "raiding" because of the different natures of the two. However, one can look at the entire population of the game and see how many people engage in certain activities to determine trends and "popularity".

  9. #429
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    In your example of "football in the park", someone who's looking to gauge it's popularity would not compare it to the hours spent doing something "required" such as work but rather something during leisure hours. If they look at the park and see that only a small percentage of people play football as opposed to other sports they can determine how "popular" it is in relation to other sports and activities done by people in that park and thus allocate resources to it or other activities in some manner.
    I guess in this example, it would be the park owners that would divide up their fields for each sport and sum such, and see what gets the most traffic, but that is not the situation here.

    Case in point. To play football in the field with your buddies, it takes a bit more then just show up one day in a pair of sweats and expect to just jump into the game. I mean really, that's a great way to give yourself a heart attack or really hurt someone.

    It takes a bit of prep here, and your friends know it, I mean dude, you need some real shoes before you hit the field, your gonna slip all over the grass and break your ankles in those wal*mart bargain bin sneakers, and those sweats, you're gonna show the whole the field your family jewels on your first tackle, you need get something that is not going to slide off man.

    So, maybe this week you don't get to play, we can toss the ball a bit, and let you watch the show, but, you have to get some gear and equipment before you can hit the field bro. So you spend time doing that, now you are back in wal*mart, looking for a good pair of sneakers that won't kill you, and some clothing that actually fits you and not the sag around the house jammy sweats you showed up in last week.

    So you show this time, and your buddies are like, "looking good there bro, lets see what you got?" and you run out into the field, and 10 min later, your hunched over, gasping for breath and your friends give you a drink and walk you back to the bench. You get a kind soul that tells you that you need to do some cardio and really could do to lose about 120 pounds, but, maybe just start with 20 and then lose the rest as you learn to play with the big boys.

    So now you are in the gym, working out to get fit enough to play foot ball and not be a joke or total waste of space on whatever team you join. You're clocking a lot more hours in the gym and store then you are on the field, because you know, you need to prep. So a few weeks pass, you head out to game day, maybe toss the ball a bit, and chat it up, hit a minor game of a few of the other new players, and after 10 min of field time you're all wheezing back to the bench again.

    You keep up the effort, you start to play some pick up games, maybe hit the tennis wall, do some one man b-ball, just to get the cardio up, you're prepping for the 11 man game doing a lot of small group activities, maybe tennis with someone else as opposed to the wall, maybe a 4 man pick game of b-ball, or just doing some laps around the track and there are others running with you.

    So yah, there is a lot you are doing that is not football, but you are doing to be better at playing football, to get ready for the real game and not hurt yourself in the process. So you lose the 60 pounds, you need to get new better good stuff to wear that fits you again, after all, those once skin tight UnderArmor knickers now look like granny pants on the new you.

    So you're not going to wal*mart now, you're at Modell's. Ok, so 90% of your "game" time is spent prepping for the Football game, and now you hit the field, you do 6 innings, you rock, you're running, you're blocking like a pro, at least in your mind it's like a pro, you look more like a Panda trying to out run a cougar up a tree made of Styrofoam, but still your gold staring compared to how you used to do, and you go to catch the ball and you fumble like a ballerina trying to dace on quicksand.

    So now your back to running with the new guys again, this time working on your throwing and catching, you got some good skills, enough to get you to be second maybe third pick on the team, you're not a charity case anymore, but you still need to work it.

    Now it's back to the b-ball to learn rebounds, and you started to take up racquetball to get your jive on, you need to get the moves baby, moves! And it back to Modell's again, now for more gear to play those other games and all kinds of stuff you're hitting up GNC as well to get better and better.

    After a while you realize that you spent 95% of your game getting ready to play, and only 5% playing.. But when you walk out into the field, and you catch that ball, and slam that touch down, or lift that guy into the air and throw him down protecting the quarterback, it's all worth it, that grand moment, that feeling of victory.

    Yah. sorry for the wall of text, but, I don't think you can put 'metrics' on stuff like that.. just saying.
    Last edited by Ungood; 09-07-2013 at 08:09 PM.

  10. #430
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    So, while it stands to reason people will do more of a grind, that does not mean it's what they want more of, much like we do our day jobs more then we play tackle football with our friends out in the park, that does not mean that, that game of tackle football is worth less to us then the days we spend t work at our jobs, in many ways, that game day on the week end is worth soo much more, even if it done far less.

    The same could be said for raids and some of the player base. I guess like anything, there are each their own on their view of each part of the game.

    From your post it sounds like you enjoy raids more than regular questing, but I do not think your analogy is apt. I'd argue 'most' players do not compare questing to a 'day job' they have to do, but think of raids as a fun weekend activity they'd prefer to do.


    But this is a game, not a job or some obligation. Players don't 'have to' do anything in this game unless they want to do it. I think most players play the content they want to play and only tiny group of players force themselves to grind xps so they can receive the benefits of another +1 or +2 to a stat or DC or spell penetration.

    Comments from Turbine staff seem to back this up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Just saying.. numbers aren't everything.

    I'd argue that in this context the numbers ARE everything.


    If you have X amount of dollars to design new content, you have a better ROI if you build something most players will play many times vs something few players will play more than once. I don't think it is a coincidence that it will be almost a year between when the last new raid was released and the next one will be released.


    I do think more players would run raids if they could short man them. Turbine should consider adding a 'casual' or 'short-man' difficulty to raids if they want to increase raid traffic. That or lower the difficulty of a 'normal' raid to be designed for 6-8 players instead of 12.

  11. #431
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    Ouch, my eyes Ungood. My eyes!

    Please, for the love of all things unholy, use the return key.

    Interesting points, but ouch.

  12. #432
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Ouch, my eyes Ungood. My eyes!

    Please, for the love of all things unholy, use the return key.

    Interesting points, but ouch.
    LOL. I just tried to re-read it.. I think I am going to format that wall now.. LOL

  13. #433
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I guess in this example, it would be the park owners that would divide up their fields for each sport and sum such, and see what gets the most traffic, but that is not the situation here.
    Yet, I think that is the situation here, in it's own way. It is up to Turbine to "divide up the field". We're not looking at what is popular to a person or a group of people, but what is popular in the context of how much of the population engages in that activity.

    Football is popular, yet not everybody wishes to play it, even the people who think it's "cool".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    After a while you realize that you spent 95% of your game getting ready to play, and only 5% playing.. But when you walk out into the field, and you catch that ball, and slam that touch down, or lift that guy into the air and throw him down protecting the quarterback, it's all worth it, that grand moment, that feeling of victory.

    Yah. sorry for the wall of text, but, I don't think you can put 'metrics' on stuff like that.. just saying.
    I didn't really read much of what you wrote but I think you're going off on a tangent that has little to do with what I wrote.

    It isn't about the individual who spent 95% "prepping" and 5% "playing", it's more about the population of the game. If there is a large segment of the game population that doesn't play Raids at all or very, very little, than it may be deemed as not as "popular" in that context. It may be very popular to an individual or to a guild, but if only a small segment of the overall population does it with any kind of regularity, then it may be safe to say that it isn't that popular an activity for the majority of the players.

    And metrics can be used to determine that. It just depends on what figures Turbine is looking at and how they put it into context.

  14. #434
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    I didn't really read much of what you wrote but I think you're going off on a tangent that has little to do with what I wrote.
    Pity, because it has everything to do with what we are talking about.

  15. #435
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Removed my ppost here because I realized I was just arguing for the sake of, so taking a step back and really wondering what are we discussing here?

    You know what, I don't get this.

    Do the people who disagree with me really think that what would be best for the game is just more typical quests?

    If you do, as a player, as a person playing the game. Why would you think that?
    Last edited by Ungood; 09-08-2013 at 07:20 AM.

  16. #436
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I guess in this example, it would be the park owners that would divide up their fields for each sport and sum such, and see what gets the most traffic, but that is not the situation here.

    Case in point. To play football in the field with your buddies, it takes a bit more then just show up one day in a pair of sweats and expect to just jump into the game. I mean really, that's a great way to give yourself a heart attack or really hurt someone.

    It takes a bit of prep here, and your friends know it, I mean dude, you need some real shoes before you hit the field, your gonna slip all over the grass and break your ankles in those wal*mart bargain bin sneakers, and those sweats, you're gonna show the whole the field your family jewels on your first tackle, you need get something that is not going to slide off man.

    So, maybe this week you don't get to play, we can toss the ball a bit, and let you watch the show, but, you have to get some gear and equipment before you can hit the field bro. So you spend time doing that, now you are back in wal*mart, looking for a good pair of sneakers that won't kill you, and some clothing that actually fits you and not the sag around the house jammy sweats you showed up in last week.

    So you show this time, and your buddies are like, "looking good there bro, lets see what you got?" and you run out into the field, and 10 min later, your hunched over, gasping for breath and your friends give you a drink and walk you back to the bench. You get a kind soul that tells you that you need to do some cardio and really could do to lose about 120 pounds, but, maybe just start with 20 and then lose the rest as you learn to play with the big boys.

    So now you are in the gym, working out to get fit enough to play foot ball and not be a joke or total waste of space on whatever team you join. You're clocking a lot more hours in the gym and store then you are on the field, because you know, you need to prep. So a few weeks pass, you head out to game day, maybe toss the ball a bit, and chat it up, hit a minor game of a few of the other new players, and after 10 min of field time you're all wheezing back to the bench again.

    You keep up the effort, you start to play some pick up games, maybe hit the tennis wall, do some one man b-ball, just to get the cardio up, you're prepping for the 11 man game doing a lot of small group activities, maybe tennis with someone else as opposed to the wall, maybe a 4 man pick game of b-ball, or just doing some laps around the track and there are others running with you.

    So yah, there is a lot you are doing that is not football, but you are doing to be better at playing football, to get ready for the real game and not hurt yourself in the process. So you lose the 60 pounds, you need to get new better good stuff to wear that fits you again, after all, those once skin tight UnderArmor knickers now look like granny pants on the new you.

    So you're not going to wal*mart now, you're at Modell's. Ok, so 90% of your "game" time is spent prepping for the Football game, and now you hit the field, you do 6 innings, you rock, you're running, you're blocking like a pro, at least in your mind it's like a pro, you look more like a Panda trying to out run a cougar up a tree made of Styrofoam, but still your gold staring compared to how you used to do, and you go to catch the ball and you fumble like a ballerina trying to dace on quicksand.

    So now your back to running with the new guys again, this time working on your throwing and catching, you got some good skills, enough to get you to be second maybe third pick on the team, you're not a charity case anymore, but you still need to work it.

    Now it's back to the b-ball to learn rebounds, and you started to take up racquetball to get your jive on, you need to get the moves baby, moves! And it back to Modell's again, now for more gear to play those other games and all kinds of stuff you're hitting up GNC as well to get better and better.

    After a while you realize that you spent 95% of your game getting ready to play, and only 5% playing.. But when you walk out into the field, and you catch that ball, and slam that touch down, or lift that guy into the air and throw him down protecting the quarterback, it's all worth it, that grand moment, that feeling of victory.

    Yah. sorry for the wall of text, but, I don't think you can put 'metrics' on stuff like that.. just saying.
    They can put "metrics" on stuff like that because about 90% of that stuff you can buy your way through in DDO, and money is the metric. In your sports analogy, people pay money to wake up thin, stronger, more prowess, more stamina, more hand eye coordination, and smarter tomorrow. They pay money for the gear that allows them to hit hard without getting hurt most of the time. You went to sleep as you, and woke up as Barry Sanders in his prime.

    The sports analogy isn't really accurate because in real life you would still have to play 16 games, get into the playoffs, then play and beat teams as good as or maybe better than yours to get to the super bowl, then play and win the super bowl. In DDO you can just buy the Lombardi Trophy outright. Or you can pay to circumvent the entire season, buy playoff victories, then steamroll the super bowl by playing it on normal with an elite team behind you.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #437
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    They can put "metrics" on stuff like that because about 90% of that stuff you can buy your way through in DDO, and money is the metric. In your sports analogy, people pay money to wake up thin, stronger, more prowess, more stamina, more hand eye coordination, and smarter tomorrow. They pay money for the gear that allows them to hit hard without getting hurt most of the time. You went to sleep as you, and woke up as Barry Sanders in his prime.

    The sports analogy isn't really accurate because in real life you would still have to play 16 games, get into the playoffs, then play and beat teams as good as or maybe better than yours to get to the super bowl, then play and win the super bowl. In DDO you can just buy the Lombardi Trophy outright. Or you can pay to circumvent the entire season, buy playoff victories, then steamroll the super bowl by playing it on normal with an elite team behind you.
    And pay to have no salary cap for your team while your at it?

  18. #438
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The sports analogy isn't really accurate because in real life you would still have to play 16 games, get into the playoffs, then play and beat teams as good as or maybe better than yours to get to the super bowl, then play and win the super bowl. In DDO you can just buy the Lombardi Trophy outright. Or you can pay to circumvent the entire season, buy playoff victories, then steamroll the super bowl by playing it on normal with an elite team behind you.
    Why would anyone do that these days when DDO just put Superbowl rings in cereal boxes.

  19. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    ...one can look at the entire population of the game and see how many people engage in certain activities to determine trends and "popularity".
    The problem there is that the numbers provide zero information on the "why" of the matter.

    Seeing data on a shift in trend doesn't tell you why certain raids lost popularity, nor do numbers tell you what would restore that popularity. When the motivation is end game relevant loot, reducing the raid pool from ~9 down to 2 will of course cause a huge drop in the popularity of raiding; but the numbers don't show the cause, just the effect. When need to run a raid repeatedly over time is subverted by increased drop rates and timer by passes, there is of course a reduction in raiding as the goals are achieved sooner; again the data doesn't show why the raids get run less or why timer sales slumped, just that they did. When a new raid is introduced with irritating mechanics that cause the raid to be unpopular, the numbers don't show why it's unpopular just that it is.

    Relying on numbers with out factoring in what causes the numbers leads to inaccurate conclusions about popularity, desirability and what could be done to improve the players raiding experience which would in turn increase the amount of in game attention raiding receives.

    Providing that information to Turbine was the entire purpose of this thread, before certain individuals derailed it big time.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 09-07-2013 at 11:37 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  20. #440
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The problem there is that the numbers provide zero information on the "why" of the matter.
    The core of the issue is right here. All the metrics don't mean anything if they are not analyzed by someone who understands the tangible meanings behind them.

    This is a major issue with the game as a whole right now.

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