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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Let me enlighten some of you by using an example that is not DDO-based. Let’s use chocolate.
    Awesome, well-written, and true analogy!

  2. #282
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    (A) Turbine is a money grubbing vulture hellbent on exploiting the largest possible sources of revenue they can; they frequently release new pets, upgraded tomes, new cosmetics and otto/bigby boxes and de-emphasize raids; therefore raids are actually not as profitable for Turbine as players seem to think.

    (B) Turbine is a money grubbing vulture hellbent on exploiting the largest possible sources of revenue they can; but they've been completely wrong about what their most profitable investment is (raiding) and should pay more attention to the anecdotal recollections of (Qhualor et al.) in setting their development priorities or perish in bankruptcy.

    I don't know man... I'm just trying to figure out what makes more sense. A or B.

    Well meaning players with a passion for raiding are here righteously petitioning Turbine to emphasize raiding more than what they've promised for the next year or so, arguing that Turbine will benefit because these players know regardless of whatever data Turbine has, that their opinions about the relative importance of raids to the overall playerbase and the financial return Turbine would see are correct. And here I come p**sing in cheerios pointing out that actually, these well meaning players may not be correct, and that Turbine may in fact be correctly emphasizing other activities over raiding.

    (C[hai]) Turbine is a money grubbing vulture hellbent on exploiting the largest possible sources of revenue they can; they are so devious that to honor their promise never to sell raidloot in the store, they're going to stop producing raids and place the bestest loot in the store making the P2W complete.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    ... when we tell them what we are willing to and not willing to spend money on, we are handing them that data for free, and then paying them for acting on that data in a matter that is favorible to what was provided by purchasing the ensuing product.
    Tell them all you want - they see players in aggregate actually using and paying for certain services, and evidently in some cases using and paying for services in a way that suggests different interests than what they say they want to do. That data is handed to them for free, devoid of bias or emotion, delivered directly to Turbine's logs by every single player bothering to actually play the game as opposed to some 5% who make a forum posting. Actions are going to speak louder than forum postings. Especially when those actions involve opening a wallet and forum postings only involve opening your mouth. If it is the case that raids are not used by many players and do not result in as high a financial return as other activities, then you're going to have to gather a lot more forum posters and beat the drum a lot more consistently to put a dent in the actual in game figures that prompt a statement like "Raids get a lot of forum traffic but not necessarily the player usage."

    Of course if this is true:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    ... roughly half of the players will not pay a dime, or very little if there are mandatory expenditures required. In DDOs case these are people who let their points pile up and acquire content with said points when needed. Roughly half spend a small amount, and a few percentage points, ~2-4% spend ALOT.

    So:

    48-49% very little to no spending
    48-49% moderate spending
    2-4% whales. Wallet elite. Big spenders.
    And this is true:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    As paying customers WE and WE ALONE have the MOST relevant data regarding the profitability of the company, because it is we, the paying customers who pay the bills. Customer is THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON in the equation.
    Then Turbine really should be listening much more to the 2-4% of the player base who are paying the majority of their bills. The remaining 96%'s interests are much less important, and in many cases hold no value at all.

    There is one question left.

    Chai - are you a big spending whale that Turbine should listen to, or should your small financial contributions result in Turbine giving want you want only a proportionally small amount of consideration?

    Let the whales surface, and their desires made known.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    But niche games do not have high populations and you want a higher population.

    Cannot have it both ways. So what do you want? Higher population and less niche or more niche and less population?

    You have already stated you want higher population so you will have to live with less niche.
    Wanting a higher population doesn't mean wanting a cookie cutter game. Niche games can have healthy populations.

  5. #285
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    There is one question left.

    Chai - are you a big spending whale that Turbine should listen to, or should your small financial contributions result in Turbine giving want you want only a proportionally small amount of consideration?

    Let the whales surface, and their desires made known.
    How much did those exiting WoW players spend on the game that made their input so valuable?

    Odds are, they were F2P-ers, never dropped a dime into the game, and bolted because it was “too hard.”

    So yeah, I think a little transparency on this issue would be a lovely thing…

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    *Ghostbane*
    Besides your personal opinion, what is that conclusion based on? Anything substantive besides "I think this is a horrible idea?
    How about you play the game and see whats is plain to anyone who DOES play the game? Instead of theory crafting on the forums?

    In the case of Ghostbane, pick a nice one up off the AH and then take a level 7 vet status melee toon into Delera's then come back and tell us what a great decision that one was, and how it address the "new players having a hard time with undead". If you don't already know what I mean; then consider the possibility that you are just being contrary and defending anything Turbine does no matter what it is?
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  7. #287
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    There is one question left.

    Chai - are you a big spending whale that Turbine should listen to, or should your small financial contributions result in Turbine giving want you want only a proportionally small amount of consideration?

    Let the whales surface, and their desires made known.
    they do and have surfaced many times here if you read the forums. I wont name names, but there are some who are fanbois and some can be seen in many P2W threads.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is a fallacy. Niche status and population are not inversely proportionate. You can have it both ways. 4 out of the 10 most populated MMOs are niche games. They likely retain their populations due to no one else being able to replicate the experience of playing those games.
    Interesting statement. Sounds like 4 games worth me checking out!

    Chai, could you either list them, or point me to the data you based the statement on? Whichever is easier for you...

  9. #289
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Let the whales surface, and their desires made known.
    Oh goody, let's start a pi$$ing contest about who $pend$ the mo$t ca$h and therefor should be listened to the mo$t! Yah, that always leads to productive conversation...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    How much did those exiting WoW players spend on the game that made their input so valuable?

    Odds are, they were F2P-ers, never dropped a dime into the game, and bolted because it was “too hard.”

    So yeah, I think a little transparency on this issue would be a lovely thing…
    Pretty much the same concern I've got with the perception that folks drop off after they're done with the harbor. How much of that might be skewed by folks taking the advice to run up to 100 favor per server to get a starting TP slush-fund, for instance?

    /shoots the lurking elephant

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Then Turbine really should be listening much more to the 2-4% of the player base who are paying the majority of their bills. The remaining 96%'s interests are much less important, and in many cases hold no value at all.

    Let the whales surface, and their desires made known.
    I am a "whale" though I think the term is comical, and says more about the basement/parents/job situation of the person who uses it, than it does about the person who spends carefree hundreds of bucks on a game they like.

    I have perspective, I pay over $120 a month for TV I barely watch, whats dropping $59 on "double bonus points sale" to get 11,000 Turbine points? (or whatever, honestly I'm such a "whale" that I can't remember how many points it was... I just know I'm back down to 4k ish and I'm going to buy a $199 pack the next time they do bonus points, I'm hoping for the rare triple bonus points sale.

    I also bought the 79.99 version of the expansion, did I feel I got value for that? Nope, but I am hardly going to lose sleep over what amounts to a couple hours worth of work. I do like my Owlbears now that they've improved them, and I like that one day I'll make a "grand summoner" character when they make it more viable, and allow Druids to get it as well as arcanes. So "Swampthing Ironclan" on thelanis can run around with multiple pets/summons/hires and avenge nature (LOL) Yes Swampthing was a druid didn't yah know?

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Wanting a higher population doesn't mean wanting a cookie cutter game. Niche games can have healthy populations.
    Agreed, what you're arguing against is a sort of "absolutist" polarity contest that tries to put every thing into a "either/or" context that is totally not how reality works. I wont respond to that person because they clearly wont allow for degrees of anything, including you either like the game or you hate the game. And if you say anything bad about Turbine you also must hate the game and "why are you still playing it if you hate it" and other such gems. I wish Turbine was as incapable of doing anything wrong or making mistakes as some people seem to believe. But I can read a graph, and observe what goes on in the game, and sadly it appears the Turbine is very capable of making poor/mistaken choices based on the metric data they collect.

    By definition, if they were making beneficial decisions that were working they would not have lost nearly 50% of their player base since MOTU.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  12. #292
    Community Member Lycurgus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlannis View Post
    Interesting statement. Sounds like 4 games worth me checking out!

    Chai, could you either list them, or point me to the data you based the statement on? Whichever is easier for you...
    Check: http://mmodata.blogspot.com/



  13. #293
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Tell them all you want - they see players in aggregate actually using and paying for certain services, and evidently in some cases using and paying for services in a way that suggests different interests than what they say they want to do. That data is handed to them for free, devoid of bias or emotion, delivered directly to Turbine's logs by every single player bothering to actually play the game as opposed to some 5% who make a forum posting. Actions are going to speak louder than forum postings. Especially when those actions involve opening a wallet and forum postings only involve opening your mouth. If it is the case that raids are not used by many players and do not result in as high a financial return as other activities, then you're going to have to gather a lot more forum posters and beat the drum a lot more consistently to put a dent in the actual in game figures that prompt a statement like "Raids get a lot of forum traffic but not necessarily the player usage."

    Of course if this is true:



    And this is true:



    Then Turbine really should be listening much more to the 2-4% of the player base who are paying the majority of their bills. The remaining 96%'s interests are much less important, and in many cases hold no value at all.

    There is one question left.

    Chai - are you a big spending whale that Turbine should listen to, or should your small financial contributions result in Turbine giving want you want only a proportionally small amount of consideration?

    Let the whales surface, and their desires made known.
    You are equating "correctness" with "more profits in the short term" which looks great on the spreadsheet this quarter, but over the long haul the 4% that spend the most money on the spot stop spending unless their desires are placated (just like any other customer). Look what happens when they have bought up all of the goods loot they want, and paid to attain the raid loot as quickly as possible. Once their payment spike stopped, Turbine had to fill the tables with better loot in hopes these folks will pay again to attain it. THey realize they cant make it only slightly better, so now we have +11 stat items and effects that invalidate most other raid/quest loot. The EE dream visor that traded straight up for an ottos box Friday is vendor trash by Monday, all in the name of ramping up power creep in hopes that those same big spenders will continue to buy loot for RL cash. When the next raid is released (and they are working on it currently) I suspect many of those same folks will be linking stacks of bypass timers in chat again.

    This is what your "being correct" nets you when you analogize "being correct" with "short term profits".. You say they should be placating the big spenders - well..that is exactly what they are doing. One dev post indicated that undead was the biggest thorn in players sides, and now we have ghostbane weapons dropping out of broken barrels like rain. Character power is directly for sale in the store. THis all looks good on the ledger this quarter, but in order to keep that train rolling they are going to have to increase character power more and more periodically than we have seen in the past. If they dont, the 4% big spenders stop being placated. Normally when this happens, companies fall back on their loyal customer base....however, when the big spenders and the old schoolers interests are not in line with one and other, in order to placate big spenders in the short term, the old school long term vets desires stop being placated as well.

    How far does that rabbithole go? Will we be having this same discussion a year from now when they are selling +7 tomes in the store, and we have +13-14 stat items dropping out of broken barrels? How long can they continue to placate the short term big spenders before loyal customer base decides they had enough? Will the 4% of the big spenders continue to log in and spend when the rest are gone? This is where SG marketing 101 allows you to understand that while the big spenders are the reason for the profit, the rest of the players arent just fodder that shouldnt be given a rip about. They are the majority number on the servers. Why do you think even the most distorted social games tolerate most of their populace being non paying players? Because if they all just left, you dont have a game, you have a ghost town.

    The good news for the blind defenders is, there will be no mass exodus. The attrition occurs at a slow enough rate where they can continue posting that because the lights are still on, everything must be OK, and that no one can possibly know what is happening except for Turbine. Buy my underwear at Kmart yeah, go back to Wallbrook yeah. But that attrition has occurred at a noticeable rate, and those who objectively analyze large sample size data over long periods of time can see this. Those who refuse to do so will continue to dismiss and demonize anything that does not support their stance. Jeopardy is on at 5 o'clock yeah....
    Last edited by Chai; 09-05-2013 at 04:33 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #294
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Awesome, well-written, and true analogy!
    Thank you.

    Unfortunately, I doubt that the analogy will be taken seriously by anyone who has control over the direction of the game. I've been in too many business situations where this type of advice was flatly ignored because an agenda was already in place, and no one was going to allow it to be de-railed by some old-fart, grunt programmer was needed to be put out to pasture a long time ago.

    I find that in product development, there is usually an alpha male the rules the pack, and a whole lot of head-nodding types who follow suit no matter how insane the direction being taken. No one will ever admit publically that a mistake is being made because the environment is wholly risk-averse. Without risk, there is virtually no reward.

    I'll never forget one admission made to me that no matter how dumb a decision is from on high, no one in management will ever admit that a mistake was made, because the minute you make a mistake you're basically targeted for termination. This explains why I made a horrible manager, because I called mistakes for what they are, and nobody liked that. However, being a grunt programmer with some pretty desirable skills, I can say that stuff now, and the worse that I get is that I'm hard to work with, but "brilliant."

    (As a side note, I don't consider myself brilliant - I'm just don't kid myself when I conjure up a ready stupid idea and try to implement it.)

    You would not believe some of the abject stupidity I've seen in decision-making circles. Blatant mistakes that people will complain about pr9ovately, but never call out publically.

    Hence, the love some people have od data-driven decision-making. The data makes the decision, and no one takes responsibility if the data is flat-out wrong...

  15. #295
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    I love this game. For almost 4 years I have played this game everyday and sometimes all day but the way things are going is making me lose interest fast. And just to be clear I have spent ALOT of money on this game. I am not vip but have spent way more money than I ever would have had I been vip. But the end game content is just bad.

    There is just no real reason to put alot of work into a character and try to build it for lousy end game content. Use to be a progression of your build. First questing. then raiding on norm. then raiding hard. then geared up and ready to go you were ready for epics. Now there is EE which I enjoy running but the incentive just isn't there to do these. Most people wont join a group you try to put together for these because of the challenge compared to the reward.

    The social aspect also is troubling. My brother plays and I have friends that play. In the old days we could tr our characters and level at different paces but we could always count on meeting at level 20 and running raids and epics together. Now we get to end game and there is nothing to do. So we get on the hamster wheel and tr and now we are not running together again.

    As for all of you soloers who say BAH to raids remember 90% of the game is soloable. so you have your solo stuff. Let us raiders and social players have some raids and end game stuff that we like too. I think there is enough of the pie to go around.

    Please Please fix end game content with more raids and things to do. I think me and my check book are going to go away for awhile until this gets fixed and if it doesn't then ah well. its been fun.

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    they do and have surfaced many times here if you read the forums. I wont name names, but there are some who are fanbois and some can be seen in many P2W threads.
    I think you're oversimplifying things to conform to how you want to view things. I just admited to being a whale, and I am on record as saying raid loot in the store wouldn't bother me. Yet here I am heavily criticizing Turbine and the present direction of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Oh goody, let's start a pi$$ing contest about who $pend$ the mo$t ca$h and therefor should be listened to the mo$t! Yah, that always leads to productive conversation...
    Oops *looks sheepishly at my last post*
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    How far does that rabbithole go? Will we be having this same discussion a year from now when they are selling +7 tomes in the store, and we have +13-14 stat items dropping out of broken barrels?
    You tell me! When your stated position is that 4% of the player base pays the majority of Turbines bills, and players who are paying Turbine's bills are the ones that Turbine should be listening to the most, then this is the logical conclusion of your argument. I didn't make those claims... you did.

    Of course it may be that 4% of the player base doesn't actually pay most of Turbines bills, and it may also be the case that the desires laid out in forum posts by bill paying customers are actually not the best, or even a very good, basis for Turbine's decisions on how to prioritize their resources. But then that would refute your claims.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    However, if you use data-driven decisions, the data will ultimately conclude that the company that makes the best chocolate in the world obviously does not make the best chocolate, because they make FAR less in revenue than Hershey or Mars.
    No. A business owner would examine the risk/reward potential of attempting to move into a market segment with one or two dominant and entrenched competitors and decide whether trading the high profit margins that luxury chocolate commands for lower profit margins spread over a wider customer base makes any sense. Part of that analysis would include projections on how long it would take to penetrate that market segment to the degree necessary to recoup both the investment in the strategic venture and the opportunity cost from losing potential returns they might have had by investing in a different growth strategy.

    The data would tell the business owner what the actual spending habits of his customers are, and whether they tend to purchase only the most luxurious and expensive chocolates, or whether most purchases are grouped in the less expensive side of their product offering. Customers may claim in surveys that they will only purchase expensive chocolates, but the proof is in the purchase, and the owner could certainly factor those real sales figures into the larger question of strategic direction.

    That is not unlike the decision Rowan hints at - he has limited resources; what is the projected risk/reward of investing in one direction versus another. And what does he trust more when deciding direction: actual sales figures, or forum threads?

  19. #299
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    You tell me! When your stated position is that 4% of the player base pays the majority of Turbines bills, and players who are paying Turbine's bills are the ones that Turbine should be listening to the most, then this is the logical conclusion of your argument. I didn't make those claims... you did.
    That is not my stated position, that is a strawman argument. I was refuting your premise that the majority of the players automagically spends the majority of the money. If you understand SG marketing (which is where MMOs are getting their current marketing strategies from) then you understand this concept.


    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Of course it may be that 4% of the player base doesn't actually pay most of Turbines bills, and it may also be the case that the desires laid out in forum posts by bill paying customers are actually not the best, or even a very good, basis for Turbine's decisions on how to prioritize their resources. But then that would refute your claims.
    That would not refute my claims, and you would understand why if you had read the entire post you quoted that snippet out of, where I literally state why the people who spend less arent simply fodder to be ignored.

    What yourself and some others are trying to do here is turn it into an absolute all or nothing argument. Understanding it is an argument of degree is the first step to understanding the premise that Turbine can cater to both playstyles being debated here. The other fact that needs to be understood is that they did so for a long enough time, demonstrating that theres no reason to stop now.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-05-2013 at 05:37 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    I'd also like to chime in on another reason that the Older raids aren't run anymore...

    "Epic Raid Tokens" getting renamed to "Greater Tokens of the Twelve" instead of "We don't want these used anymore". Heroic Commendations vs Raid Tokens is a silly distinction, a bad schism, and invalidated good content. Personally, it left me doing a Cost:Benefit analysis and coming to the conclusion that I'll burn out raiding CitW (with its horrid drop rate) and FoT before getting the 25 Commendations to upgrade the weapons and 15 for dragonscale armor. 40 Comms per character is a lot. Turbine apparently lacks the long term direction to not obsolete them before I'm 80% of the way there at my own pace... so, I'm not going to bother.

    Back before MotU, I raided a lot. A lot of Shroud's, and Reaver's, and Chrono's... I didn't do the Epic thing (Your DPS must be this good to ride this ride. All alternative methods of play have been invalidated).
    Now, I TR. Let's hope that Update 20 doesn't kill that experience for me as well. (But that's off-topic)
    Adding a chance for heroic comms in all epic raids would also help.
    Arrael - Tempest/Kensai; Alyesia - Exploiter Build; Porksoda - WF FvS; Kaealla - Paladin; Arodeth - Envoker FvS

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