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  1. #221
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Actually raids have never actually been that popular. According to comments I recall seeing over the years here on the forums Raid active players are pretty equivalent to forum active players, as in maybe 5% of the total player base actually does enough raiding to be called raiders.

    Assumption

    The vast majority of players I know in game dont raid, those who do and also run EE regularly I hate to say but are the IMAGE of what we on the forums call pikers and tend to bite off far more then they can chew and most pugs they lead only see victory because of one or two party members that could have easily soloed the content but grouped for some idle banter.

    Untrue

    I know a handful in game who typically are also members of the big named guilds on Gland who also raid actively and are actually competent at it.

    Most I know tend to agree the fun of such things entirely comes from the players and the social banter, almost none at all from the game play as it is all done on auto pilot by players who meta game every bit of challenge out of the content as completion and looting opportunities are the soul driving factor for actually being in the content.

    Possibly, but what's the harm in that?

    Finally there is one major division among this elite raid caste, and that is those who see the extreme XP of such content as a must have to make finishing off EDs final bubs abit less painful, and those who see EE and Eraids as situations where anything less then the best is intolerable, and those who knowingly enter such extreme content without being in a maxxed ED will lead to being viewed as the ultimate waste of a slot.

    Untrue, at least on Tland. I'm not uber, but have never been refused because of it.

    I am not surprised one bit frankly no raid came with the expansion and would be honestly amazed if we see another ever added rather then large open world instances where large numbers of players can interact. As we even see in this very thread people from large guilds mentioning and even hinting at wanting ways for even more then 12 members of a guild to run around adventuring together. More MMO traditional open world zones would be the answer, perhaps make them private instances still and needing a air ship to reach. THese zones could have no scaling and be meant for very large groups of players to go to to clear for some kind of extreme slayer zone xp etc. So large guilds could meet up on their air ship all head to one of these instances and run around chatting and hacking and slashing for hours of casual kick ass fun.
    "Traditional" open worlds like in WoW are awful. Terrible. It's half the reason many of us are here instead of there.
    As for "needing" an airship to reach, definitely not. Discriminating content against unguilded players is a must NOT do.

    As for more play style options, yes.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And as far as me confirming what youve been saying, more like youre reinforcing what ive been saying FOR YEARS NOW
    Why do you continue to act like you're arguing with me while proclaiming that you agree with and confirm all that I've said?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The customer is he most important person in the equation.
    And as Rowan alluded to, they need to balance what the customers are saying versus what the customers are doing. And Turbine has the only reliable source of data for what the customers have been doing, regardless of how you want to bog down the discussion with recollection misdirection. There is no opposition for my part to players continuing to appeal for what they want Turbine to focus on. There is amusement when players think their memories of lfm panels from years past are a reliable source of data that will matter to Turbine as they decide the relative merits of focusing more on raids or more on other revenue producing activities. Hilarious!

  3. #223
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    And as Rowan alluded to, they need to balance what the customers are saying versus what the customers are doing. And Turbine has the only reliable source of data for what the customers have been doing, regardless of how you want to bog down the discussion with recollection misdirection. There is no opposition for my part to players continuing to appeal for what they want Turbine to focus on. There is amusement when players think their memories of lfm panels from years past are a reliable source of data that will matter to Turbine as they decide the relative merits of focusing more on raids or more on other revenue producing activities. Hilarious!
    Yeah, ummm…ever worked for a large company? Even been in meetings where “reliable data” is presented to cement an opinion?

    I’ve been in meetings where stats are pulled out to justify some of the dumbest decisions I’ve ever seen made. I was a voice of dissent, and those voices were ignored. In the end – took years for it to come about – and I was correct, and the data-driven decisions were wrong.

    The problem with “reliable data” is that is stops becoming reliable when someone with an agenda gets their hands on it. Hence, why I argue about proper interpretation of data.

    Granted, we have lots of raids. Raids are specialized quests. In my personal opinion, not having a raid here or there on occasion isn’t going to break DDO. However, the all-encompassing assumptions being made that raids are not worth the effort is idiotic. The fact of the matter is that posted raids in LFMs get filled with more consistency, and more reliably than quests. There are lots of reasons for this, however, you probably won’t get “data” to explain why.

    So, spare me the child-like defense of “reliable data,” as it is clear you have no idea where that data comes from, and how it is often interpreted. I do.

  4. #224
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    And as Rowan alluded to, they need to balance what the customers are saying versus what the customers are doing. And Turbine has the only reliable source of data for what the customers have been doing, regardless of how you want to bog down the discussion with recollection misdirection.
    Its an insurmountable problem, Turbine has data that they are interpreting and given its likely considered sensitive information (i.e. provides competitors an advantage if they could also see it) players will never see it. So, we're left to speculate. Many players then speculate that Turbine is looking at what quests players actively play at the moment and then use that to gauge what quests they are interested in. The players then state that there are reasons they are not playing those quests: i.e. since MOTU the loot/xp of raids is outclassed by quests and the challenge (i.e. fun) is gone as now people can just waltz in with overleveled characters and active epic destinies and pimp slap bosses around. Quests on the other hand are still somewhat of a challenge since new quests are at level.

    Other things I would consider, releasing one raid at level and then seeing that no one runs it may overlook raid train effects. When several raids were at similar difficulty levels, players would play multiples raids in one night as part of a social event. When you only have one raid to run thats competitive (now two) there is less likelihood that we'll see this phenomenon. Second, if you're only looking at data of people that are playing then you are leaving out the data on people that have left. If those people left because there are no raids, the data is biased against raids. Finally, looking only at the data on what people are playing loses out on the people that are aspiring to something. People may be running a lot of quests to actively try to level/gear up enough to do a raid. Once you've taken away that raid, what is there to aspire to.

    So, even without access to the data on what Turbine says players are doing, I think the forums at least add the useful bit of information where players can explain why they are doing the things they are doing. True, its biased in the types of people that are on the forums, but given that recent changes to the game are correlated with what appears to be decreased levels of people in the game overall, perhaps there is a flaw in the way producers are interpreting data. Unless they are rightfully interpreting the data as saying "get all the money out of people as fast as possible with minimal content investment because the direction things are headed is not long-term sustainable.".
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  5. #225
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Actually raids have never actually been that popular.
    Wrong.

  6. #226
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Why do you continue to act like you're arguing with me while proclaiming that you agree with and confirm all that I've said?



    And as Rowan alluded to, they need to balance what the customers are saying versus what the customers are doing. And Turbine has the only reliable source of data for what the customers have been doing, regardless of how you want to bog down the discussion with recollection misdirection. There is no opposition for my part to players continuing to appeal for what they want Turbine to focus on. There is amusement when players think their memories of lfm panels from years past are a reliable source of data that will matter to Turbine as they decide the relative merits of focusing more on raids or more on other revenue producing activities. Hilarious!
    The biggest thing that Turbine will really care about is their data. If their data shows that raids are run a lot less than what players say they do or want, than they honestly need to put the chart sheets down and get out more often.

    Turbine has continuously shown in the past that they don't listen very well to us and they care more about quick easy profit than they do about cause and effect. Players raid less today than they used to because of sub par loot, loot that gets invalidated each release, P2W options to quicken and increase chance of loot or just buy it outright on P2WAH, quest/random loot is better than raid loot and raids that don't compare in fun or challenge like the older ones do. Turbine only does it to themselves. A few years ago, we didn't have it half as easy as we do now and lfms were always littered with them and channels were always talking about raiding and couldn't wait to be off timer. The biggest complaints were drop rates.

    You can convince yourself all you want and Producer Rowan can look at his data sheets all he wants, but for 3+ years I have unofficially hung out in MP, reading chat channels and studying the lfm. I have been out there listening and watching players. Maybe you are thinking what's best for your server?

  7. #227
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yeah, ummm…ever worked for a large company? Even been in meetings where “reliable data” is presented to cement an opinion?

    I’ve been in meetings where stats are pulled out to justify some of the dumbest decisions I’ve ever seen made. I was a voice of dissent, and those voices were ignored. In the end – took years for it to come about – and I was correct, and the data-driven decisions were wrong.

    The problem with “reliable data” is that is stops becoming reliable when someone with an agenda gets their hands on it. Hence, why I argue about proper interpretation of data.

    Granted, we have lots of raids. Raids are specialized quests. In my personal opinion, not having a raid here or there on occasion isn’t going to break DDO. However, the all-encompassing assumptions being made that raids are not worth the effort is idiotic. The fact of the matter is that posted raids in LFMs get filled with more consistency, and more reliably than quests. There are lots of reasons for this, however, you probably won’t get “data” to explain why.

    So, spare me the child-like defense of “reliable data,” as it is clear you have no idea where that data comes from, and how it is often interpreted. I do.
    I may have use for you as one of my minions, that was some damned fine flaming.

    It's not like we need a zillion raids either. 4-5 worth running is fine. 1-2 new ones a year is fine.

    Honestly, if WGU was a raid and we had another one released in early 2014 we'd be fine right now.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 09-05-2013 at 11:56 AM.

  8. #228
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    P2W options to quicken and increase chance of loot or just buy it outright on P2WAH, quest/random loot is better than raid loot and raids that don't compare in fun or challenge like the older ones do. Turbine only does it to themselves.
    Regarding the P2WAH . . . I can't sell anything on there anymore, it's as if the Ghallanda people between now and it's inception decided to stop. I mean even little things like 20-30 shard decent bits aren't selling.

    I was always a selling never a buyer, but this idea seems to have flopped as well.

  9. #229
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I may have use for you as one of my minions, that was some damned fine flaming.

    It's not like we need a zillion raids either. 4-5 worth running is fine. 1-2 new ones a year is fine.
    For the right price, I can be minion-ized.

    All people have a price, and I just make sure that I make a healthy margin when all is said and done...

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    The problem with “reliable data” is that is stops becoming reliable when someone with an agenda gets their hands on it. Hence, why I argue about proper interpretation of data.
    Apply this in both directions. If you're going to dismiss the value of whatever data Turbine holds on the basis that Turbine's agenda is reason enough to distrust them, then recollections and theories about how many players will actually run raids and spend money on them based on personal agendas, forum group think, limited visibility of a large set of data (lfm panels? c'mon) are certainly no better and should also be distrusted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    So, even without access to the data on what Turbine says players are doing, I think the forums at least add the useful bit of information where players can explain why they are doing the things they are doing. True, its biased in the types of people that are on the forums ...
    Rowan explicitly said "let us know". He's obviously been reading the forums or he never would have shared the insight. Very clearly people who are passionate about the game have a good reason to reach out and tell Turbine what motivates them.

    Not in dispute: people should voice their interests and what motivates them to Turbine. In dispute: whether Turbine's data that prompted Rowan's statement demonstrates that there is a lower than realized percentage of the playerbase who actually runs raids and whether Turbine's financial interests lie in increased emphasis on raids or increased emphasis on other revenue producing activities.

    Not in dispute: Turbine can cater to multiple segments of the playerbase. In dispute: whether it is better for Turbine to prioritize the desires of the revenue producing "raiding segment" above or below other revenue producing segments of the playerbase.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Turbine has continuously shown in the past that they don't listen very well to us and they care more about quick easy profit than they do about cause and effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    You can convince yourself all you want and Producer Rowan can look at his data sheets all he wants, but for 3+ years I have unofficially hung out in MP, reading chat channels and studying the lfm. I have been out there listening and watching players.
    (A) Turbine is a money grubbing vulture hellbent on exploiting the largest possible sources of revenue they can; they frequently release new pets, upgraded tomes, new cosmetics and otto/bigby boxes and de-emphasize raids; therefore raids are actually not as profitable for Turbine as players seem to think.

    (B) Turbine is a money grubbing vulture hellbent on exploiting the largest possible sources of revenue they can; but they've been completely wrong about what their most profitable investment is (raiding) and should pay more attention to the anecdotal recollections of (Qhualor et al.) in setting their development priorities or perish in bankruptcy.

    I don't know man... I'm just trying to figure out what makes more sense. A or B.

    Well meaning players with a passion for raiding are here righteously petitioning Turbine to emphasize raiding more than what they've promised for the next year or so, arguing that Turbine will benefit because these players know regardless of whatever data Turbine has, that their opinions about the relative importance of raids to the overall playerbase and the financial return Turbine would see are correct. And here I come p**sing in cheerios pointing out that actually, these well meaning players may not be correct, and that Turbine may in fact be correctly emphasizing other activities over raiding.

  12. #232
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Well, for one thing, Hirelings, Ethereal Shrines, Repair Kits, and Spirit Cakes are not allowed in raids. Raids require flagging. Raids have repeat timers. Raids do not scale. Most if not all raids have some mechanism to prevent re-entry... what'd I miss?
    Granted that each of these aspects are in raids and not in quests; my overarching point is what about are necessary for you to have a meaningful/worthwhile experience at endgame? So, are you saying that the absence of hirelings, shrines and the like are what is necessary, or is it he challege that they introduce?

  13. #233
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The compelling argument is that theres an entire portion of the player base who runs raids and likes that aspect more than any other aspect of the game. Turbine has been able to give these people what they want in the past without having to do so at the expense of catering to other playstyles as well.
    Let me be clear; I do not deny that you and others feel this way about raiding at endgame. All I am getting at why do you feel that way? Challenge? fine. What about challenge can't be put into a quest? Restricting items that can be bought in the store? Maybe there is something to this. I don't know but noone has said this is why they love raids so much.

  14. #234
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Strictly speaking for myself, My logins pre U19 were 1-2 times a day.

    Since U19, I crash at least 4 times in an average (2hrs for me) playsession.

    So for just me alone, I have doubled to quadrupled the logins on Thelanis since the expansion release. This is fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  15. #235
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Apply this in both directions. If you're going to dismiss the value of whatever data Turbine holds on the basis that Turbine's agenda is reason enough to distrust them, then recollections and theories about how many players will actually run raids and spend money on them based on personal agendas, forum group think, limited visibility of a large set of data (lfm panels? c'mon) are certainly no better and should also be distrusted.
    No actually it doesn’t apply in both directions.

    Citing stats shows you have two specific weaknesses: a) you don’t have a vision, and b) you haven’t a clue as to what your own consumer base wants. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have to rely on stats to make your point.

    And when it comes to forum groupthink, you’re lecturing the wrong person…very demonstrably…

    If you have no idea what the people using your product really want, or don’t use your own product enough to know what’s wrong with it, using a bunch of exit polls is not going to help you at all. Mainly because what information you glean is limited to the questions you ask. Don’t ask the right question, you will NOT get the correct answer.

    Ghostbase is a clear illustration of the WRONG thing to do . It would have made a GREAT BtCoE specialty random lootgen item. Instead they made it a brand new prefix / suffix that basically turns the various variety of undead in the game into a single, monolithic group, so that some people would not have “problems” fighting them. So now you basically have two types of undead: skellies and non-skellies (or zombies and non-zombies). Not to mention that this takes the game yet another step away from its namesake, which is D&D. Wow…what a wholly, and utterly stupid idea!

    Oh, and they also make them so that they drop like candy from the skies. So now, taking time to gear for undead is really no big deal. Yeah, THAT’LL improve the game, alllllrightie…

    That’s the type of data-driven wholesale idiocy you’re defending.

    I’ve been writing software for a living now for WELL over two decades. The difference between software that makes it big and software that has its brief fifteen minutes of fame comes down to basically one thing: vision. If you ain’t got it, no amount of data is going to give that to you. What’s clear to me is that no one at Turbine has it any more.

    So, again, don’t lecture me about data, and software options. You haven’t a clue as to what you’re talking about.

  16. #236
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    (A) Turbine is a money grubbing vulture hellbent on exploiting the largest possible sources of revenue they can; they frequently release new pets, upgraded tomes, new cosmetics and otto/bigby boxes and de-emphasize raids; therefore raids are actually not as profitable for Turbine as players seem to think.

    (B) Turbine is a money grubbing vulture hellbent on exploiting the largest possible sources of revenue they can; but they've been completely wrong about what their most profitable investment is (raiding) and should pay more attention to the anecdotal recollections of (Qhualor et al.) in setting their development priorities or perish in bankruptcy.

    I don't know man... I'm just trying to figure out what makes more sense. A or B.

    Well meaning players with a passion for raiding are here righteously petitioning Turbine to emphasize raiding more than what they've promised for the next year or so, arguing that Turbine will benefit because these players know regardless of whatever data Turbine has, that their opinions about the relative importance of raids to the overall playerbase and the financial return Turbine would see are correct. And here I come p**sing in cheerios pointing out that actually, these well meaning players may not be correct, and that Turbine may in fact be correctly emphasizing other activities over raiding.
    Turbine goes for the easy money. Cosmetics, fluff and pay options to ease player irritations is obvious money for them. If their data shows less activity for raids than I provided the biggest reasons. If they were to wonder why players TR so much its because there isn't enough "end game" to keep players interested long enough to stay there. I know that there's a lot of players that spend more time farming for loot and farming ED xp than anything else. Its a time sink but its a time sink that isn't necessarily fun. Quests can be beaten and farmed out in a matter of hours/days with only ransack and xp holding players back. A raid that is actually designed right is a nice break from the grind, testing your character power and skill and its should have the best loot to go after in that intended level range. Turbine looks too closely at the financial side of things. I can't imagine it costs that much money and resources to design a few good "end game" raids to make some of us happy while they scheme another game bypass item or new My Little Pony.

  17. #237
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    A raid that is actually designed right is a nice break from the grind, testing your character power and skill and its should have the best loot to go after in that intended level range. Turbine looks too closely at the financial side of things. I can't imagine it costs that much money and resources to design a few good "end game" raids to make some of us happy

    Translation: Make special dungeons that give "some of us" the best loot in the game.

  18. #238
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Regarding the P2WAH . . . I can't sell anything on there anymore, it's as if the Ghallanda people between now and it's inception decided to stop. I mean even little things like 20-30 shard decent bits aren't selling.

    I was always a selling never a buyer, but this idea seems to have flopped as well.
    If its flopping, Turbine will do something to fix it. They didn't spend all that time trying to push a new economy on us just to let it flop. I have never bought or sold anything on P2WAH, but on Khyber it still holds steady with around 70 pages of stuff and most of the really good stuff is always on there.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yeah, ummm…ever worked for a large company? Even been in meetings where “reliable data” is presented to cement an opinion?
    Irrelevant. And you should know why.


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    The problem with “reliable data” is that is stops becoming reliable when someone with an agenda gets their hands on it. Hence, why I argue about proper interpretation of data.

    Reliable is subjective. The key word is really 'relevant.' If the data is not relevant, any conclusions derived from it are not relevant. The number of total 'log ins' per day can't tell us anything about the game except the total number of log ins per day. A simple truth that flies right over the head of the people using this information to determine the 'health' of DDO.


    That information does not enable us to determine the number of active accounts. Nor the number of paying VIP accounts. Nor the number of players who purchased the expansion. Nor the number of accounts which have been closed. Nor the number of players who have quit. Nor the number of new accounts that have been opened.


    Any attempt to derive meaningful, relevant, conclusions about things like how successful/unsuccessful the expansion has been or how profitable DDO is for Turbine is just LOLaughable.


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So, spare me the child-like defense of “reliable data,” as it is clear you have no idea where that data comes from, and how it is often interpreted. I do.


    You have no idea how Turbine is interpreting its data, whether it is interpreting the data accurately (since you can't review the data), if the people reviewing it are good at what they do, or if the decision makers actually use the data collected to make decisions. And that was his point (FYI insulting other posters just weakens your argument).


    No one in this forum has the relevant data to make any determination about the profitability of DDO (and probably only a very small handful of Turbine & WB staff have that information). I have no idea if DDO makes money or loses money for WB. Neither do you. Nor, likely, does any player here.


    As individual players we can say "I don't like this" and "I like that" about DDO, but making predictions about DDO's profitability from the number of log ins per day isn't much better than reading tea leaves or throwing darts blindfolded.

  20. #240
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    Let me be clear; I do not deny that you and others feel this way about raiding at endgame. All I am getting at why do you feel that way? Challenge? fine. What about challenge can't be put into a quest? Restricting items that can be bought in the store? Maybe there is something to this. I don't know but noone has said this is why they love raids so much.
    Is it necessary from a business standpoint for people to justify why they love raids so much? Is it necessary to justify soemthing that has worked over the years to keep customers playing the game by any other means?

    THis is starting to sound alot like the myriad of zerger -vs- flower sniffer threads over the years. The people who like to raid arent asking people who dont to justify why they only like questing but not raiding. What about questing cant be put into a raid?

    1. Yea, challenge. Organizing 12 people to be on the same page and on the same goal.
    2. The social factor. I can get more guild members involved in a raid than I can a TR group or quest group.
    3. The loot. More pulls from a chest means more shots at loot.
    4. Loot is also another reason to play at cap, even after XP. It develops the characters abilities more.
    5. World boss fights are more exciting than running straight and killing things. (well, most are - we do have this one where you smack a belly button for a few minutes....)
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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