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  1. #141
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    It's quite clear you've never actually played a p2w game. You're right, that is how they are monetized. This game isn't because despite all the doom, it isn't actually p2w. You've declared a false premise and are starting to build upon it. I'd backtrack a bit because your points are eventually going to be completely off.
    Here we go again with the rules lawyering of the definition fo p2w. This train is never late folks.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #142
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Thats now how p2w/f2p/cash shop games are monetized. It is the smallest percentage that spends the most, ~2-4% of the population.

    True, but the point still stands. If 100% of the people who pay were soloer's, then a pug scene would not matter at all. I don't think people can say only raiders are in that 2-4% that you mention (I don't know myself). I pay quite a bit (myself, GF, son & a guest acct), and while I raid here and there, it is not such a large part of my playing experience. I also pug here and there but pugs don't make or break the game for me.

    I'm the only one I've seen here trying to find ways to make everyone happy.

  3. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    Well said, except that you forgot to mention the main problem in this game, which is BtC space.
    I don't see a point of any raid if you can't loot anything.
    Nods solemnly...

    Housing seems the only hope for more storage atm, correct me if I'm wrong.
    I'll take some ddo store plus in game fluff to pay the light bills, thank you.



    Level 30 is coming soon, next year in fact.

    Our Raid this year came with Gianthold, and it was excellently done.
    Better one very well done raid than three poor ones, imho.


    Two raids next year or a conversion of some of the older raids to be exciting for players at level 30ish?
    Xpack 3 = ED level 6 thru 10.
    If they convert the raids, let them get a feel for the new power level.

    Level 30 will stay, just go to BAM and read....

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Just like "all is fine" fanboism.

    Only we have DDO Oracle's logins reports to back everything we're saying, all you have is your head in the sand.

    We're right, you're not.
    I suggest we ignore them, at this point the mental gymnastics needed to pretend the game is fine are so eye popingly absurd and ludicrous that they arent worth waisting time disputing.

    At the rate the LFM system is emptying in a year those two will be here congrantulating each other on the fact that 2 players left, means the game STILL isn't dead, and thus they were right all along...

    "So what are we duo'ing tonight"?
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  5. #145
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Must have been one hell of a memory leak during MOTU to generate so many logins for so many people too.



    And thank you for giving an example as to why any/all outside sources of login numbers cannot be trusted.

    Exactly. Non-unique logs per day, with no idea of average log time, is not nearly as useful data as say... total number of ViPS, total sales per day, total sales per account, total number of times a quest has been run.

    Did the number of accounts logging in really shrink significantly, or did the number of people logging in to switch stuff on alts decrease? Or are log ins per day down because the same number of players are logging on, but for longer periods of time to play the new content or to re-spec their characters (I know it has taken me almost two weeks to get all my characters re-enhanced).

    Trying to determine how many people purchased the expansion based on this data is a stretch worthy of Mr. Impossible himself.

    But hey keep banging that doom gong guys, eventually you'll be right. Been wrong for 2555 days out of 2555, but maybe that 2556th time? Nah....
    Last edited by Postumus; 09-04-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Here we go again with the rules lawyering of the definition fo p2w. This train is never late folks.
    There is no rules lawyering. If you're going to describe a certain business model, describe it correctly. This isn't an argument about what you wish to call p2w. I didn't even involve myself in that argument because I don't care how you choose to label things. But when it comes to describing an actual business model, do it correctly. DDO does not follow a "p2w" business model, or whatever you want to call it. Turbine is not marketing to and making money off of the whales.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I suggest we ignore them, at this point the mental gymnastics needed to pretend the game is fine are so eye popingly absurd and ludicrous that they arent worth waisting time disputing.

    At the rate the LFM system is emptying in a year those two will be here congrantulating each other on the fact that 2 players left, means the game STILL isn't dead, and thus they were right all along...

    "So what are we duo'ing tonight"?
    You can ignore all you want. Yes the game in declining in popularity. That does not mean the way to go forward is to design around a pointless grind. DDO has to be something else. It has to fill a niche. Pointless grind isn't a niche, and everyone who likes pointless grind has already found a home.

  8. #148
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There is no rules lawyering. If you're going to describe a certain business model, describe it correctly. This isn't an argument about what you wish to call p2w. I didn't even involve myself in that argument because I don't care how you choose to label things. But when it comes to describing an actual business model, do it correctly. DDO does not follow a "p2w" business model, or whatever you want to call it. Turbine is not marketing to and making money off of the whales.
    If you dont get involved in that argument, youd attempt to refute my premise with factual information, rather than trying to call me on a definition of a word that has nothing to do with the topic of discussion, while ignoring the fact that I used 3 different terms, p2w, f2p, and cash shop games.....even if you disagree with the using the term p2w, its undeniable that this game falls under the other 2.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #149
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Exactly. Non-unique logs per day, with no idea of average log time, is not nearly as useful data as say... total number of ViPS, total sales per day, total sales per account, total number of times a quest has been run.

    Did the number of accounts logging in really shrink significantly, or did the number of people logging in to switch stuff on alts decrease? Or are log ins per day down because the same number of players are logging on, but for longer periods of time to play the new content or to re-spec their characters (I know it has taken me almost two weeks to get all my characters re-enhanced).

    Trying to determine how many people purchased the expansion based on this data is a stretch worthy of Mr. Impossible himself.

    But hey keep banging that doom gong guys, eventually you'll be right. Been wrong for 2555 days out of 2555, but maybe that 2556th time? Nah....
    The fact that the lights are still on doesnt refute the attrition argument. Its also cute that you label everything you disagree with as doom, and base the entire stance on the issue on absolutes (game is still here, so youre wrong) - when the entire attrition argument is a degree based argument (less people returning and playing over longer periods of time).
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #150
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Imagine this folks. A new adventure pack gets released. It has 5 BIG dungeons & a slayer area. The slayer area AND all the dungeons are capable of accomodating 12 person parties.

    Wouldn't that be great?

  11. #151
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You can ignore all you want. Yes the game in declining in popularity. That does not mean the way to go forward is to design around a pointless grind. DDO has to be something else. It has to fill a niche. Pointless grind isn't a niche, and everyone who likes pointless grind has already found a home.
    There are tons of games that fill the "race to the top only to find out endgame doesnt exist, rinse repeat, hamster wheel" demographic. Its hardly niche. Its not like TR is any less of a pointless grind than raiding. Here Turbine has a chance to have BOTH the endgamers and the TR crowd. Why should they choose only to keep the TR crowd around at the expense of endgamers, when they can have both?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Revenue quiz:

    Which makes more money?

    A. A million soloers playing and paying $10 each.

    B. Fifty thousand raiders each paying $10.
    Whaaaat? How about instead of answering your made up question with made up numbers; I ask you a question with REAL numbers which are not made up?

    Which makes more money:
    A. 30,000 peak logins playing MOTU < had a raid
    B. 20,000 peak logins playing eGH < also had a raid
    C. 15,000 peak logins playing Shadowfell < did not have a raid
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Of course, HAS to be memory leak and not because more people are playing.

    You're mistaken again.

    I was replying to this :
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    But it is convenient to ignore the upward trend of logins since the latest update because that does not follow DooOOmmMM111!!!! now does it.
    You are the one who tried to imply the upward trend is something significant to back up your point. I merely suggested the upward trend may be due to the memory leak.

  14. #154
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    This game was far better of when there was Shroud, VoD, or ToD up every ten to twenty minutes any one who doesn't think so has there head in the sand, and hopefully not the ear of the Producer.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The fact that the lights are still on doesnt refute the attrition argument. Its also cute that you label everything you disagree with as doom, and base the entire stance on the issue on absolutes (game is still here, so youre wrong) - when the entire attrition argument is a degree based argument (less people returning and playing over longer periods of time).
    Your argument is just as flawed. You label the attrition as a result of design choices, rather than the natural cycle of a seven year old game. It's much more believable that the design choices has kept the game going longer than a normal gaming cycle, since DDO is in a pretty small club when it comes to the life cycle of a game.

  16. #156
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Your argument is just as flawed. You label the attrition as a result of design choices, rather than the natural cycle of a seven year old game. It's much more believable that the design choices has kept the game going longer than a normal gaming cycle, since DDO is in a pretty small club when it comes to the life cycle of a game.
    Natural cycle of a game is to take a game that satisfied 2 different crowds for a number of years, and make it satisfy one crowd at the expense of the other?

    There are quite a few games that are older than DDO, and are more populated. First time I pointed this out, those who disagreed attempted to demonize that evidence too.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #157
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Whaaaat? How about instead of answering your made up question with made up numbers; I ask you a question with REAL numbers which are not made up?

    Which makes more money:
    A. 30,000 peak logins playing MOTU < had a raid
    B. 20,000 peak logins playing eGH < also had a raid
    C. 15,000 peak logins playing Shadowfell < did not have a raid

    The point you made that I was replying to was that a dead pug scene = a dead game. That point has nothing to do with fact under the right circumstances. Turbine wants to reinvent the game but I'm making no call on whether they will be successful or not. In fact, many things they're doing are turning me away as well. I agree with a lot of what you say concerning the direction of the game. I just don't think people understand that revenue isn't all about "grouping" or "raiding" There can be other people who sign up and pay yet never do either of those two things.

    I couldn't care less about an active pug scene other than if that is what people want then the players should nuture that side of the game. I just want people playing and paying in order to keep the game going. I don't give a CR30 rats behind if they solo or group.

    Again, if Turbine manages to attract hoards of soloer's who pay, they could do just fine under that model.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    To be fair, you're the one denying data based on anecdotal evidence. The only one that has data is Turbine. And you're saying their data must be wrong because you remember things differently.
    That's "recollection misdirection", a close relative of "analysis paralysis".

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    This is the perception gap that a lot of forum posters can't get past: the forum is not necessarily a good representation of the player base, and Turbine has a much better idea of what is going on (what is getting run, what is not getting run, what classes are getting played) etc than the forum 'experts.'
    Well as long as Turbine keeps the numbers to themselves, we'll have armchair developers and producers arguing about the way things really are. I always thought it would be fun to work on an adventure game or mmo; posting on a forum is the closest I'll get.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Ludicrous: claiming in a forum post that forum posts have no value.
    Come now - I was stating that people's memories about lfm panels from years past is not a credible source for data on which Turbine should be basing their decisions. Posting what you want Turbine to focus on is certainly worthwhile. And Rowan directly requested it, that you let him know what is more important. So you should.

    It's the nature of Internet, but to be clear: I am not denying your interest in raids nor do I suggest stating such interest is worthless. I am not arguing that you shouldn't like raids. But arguing from the basis that Turbine is misreading usage data as they prioritize when we don't even know what data they have that prompted Rowan's statement is not going to get far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Turbine has a chance to have BOTH the endgamers and the TR crowd. Why should they choose only to keep the TR crowd around at the expense of endgamers, when they can have both?
    Sure - but then why shouldn't they have both but choose to prioritize one over the other if they project greater overall player satisfaction and greater profitability. They're working on a raid, so it's not like they're abandoning raiding. You keep wanting this to be about absolutes, but it's a matter of degree.

  19. #159
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Whaaaat? How about instead of answering your made up question with made up numbers; I ask you a question with REAL numbers which are not made up?

    Which makes more money:
    A. 30,000 peak logins playing MOTU < had a raid
    B. 20,000 peak logins playing eGH < also had a raid
    C. 15,000 peak logins playing Shadowfell < did not have a raid
    They all could have very well generated the same income, given the Micro-Transaction Model.

    However, EGH, was free to anyone that already had GH, so that was not a Money maker, unfortunately. However the real nail in the coffin with that was the loot change in the following update, which pretty much killed EGH, by invalidating the gear from it.

    This event also happened with MotuD, and what it did to LoB which was already a scarcely run raid to start with.

    So what we have is a group of now gun-shy players, wondering if anything is grind worthy, and in a game like DDO where everything is a grind, that is not a good way to retain players.

    There are solutions, there are ways this could be fixed, and there are better means to go about doing what they are doing, meh. such is life.

  20. #160
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    You should just sit back and be glad people like Chai & Iron are arguing your side.
    They are good minions, and they work cheap.

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