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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    And yet, we are still chugging along at an avg of 12.5k-15k+ logins per day, give or take, for the last 4 updates.

    But it is convenient to ignore the upward trend of logins since the latest update because that does not follow DooOOmmMM111!!!! now does it.

    I wish a few more would follow suit and find a different game to doom all over and leave the rest of us alone.
    The upward trend is probably more due to the memory leak which forced people to relog rather than just switch characters. I myself relog 2-3 times a session whereas before I would log in just once and switch characters. Swapping stuff between my toons on the shared bank is a pain because of this.

  2. #122
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Just like "all is fine" fanboism.

    Only we have DDO Oracle's logins reports to back everything we're saying, all you have is your head in the sand.

    We're right, you're not.
    If everything is all doom, why are you still here? Why don't you jump ship like all your doom friends?

    If everything is all doom, why the consistent average of logins of 12.5k to 15k, give or take, since MOTU?

    And of course there was a huge spike for MOTU, it was our first X-Pac, no brainer there. Your using our first X-pac and the huge logins it generated as the benchmark and if nothing can meet that, Doom! If you set unrealistic benchmarks nothing will be able to reach them. And yet, we have been consistantly running at nearly an average of 15k logins per day since then.

    Why the upward trend of logins since the latest update?

    Can't be because of doom. Maybe it is because people like to play DDO and are playing more with this update again.

    See, I can use unreliable and questionable sources too for data to support my point of view.


    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  3. #123
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    See, I can use unreliable and questionable sources too for data to support my point of view.

    Questionable sources? You mean data from the actual company?

    The only people who attempt to demonize the source of data are those who disagree with the conclusions drawn by that data. What data do they bring to the table to refute the claim? None.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #124
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobieDoo View Post
    The upward trend is probably more due to the memory leak which forced people to relog rather than just switch characters. I myself relog 2-3 times a session whereas before I would log in just once and switch characters. Swapping stuff between my toons on the shared bank is a pain because of this.
    Must have been one hell of a memory leak during MOTU to generate so many logins for so many people too.



    And thank you for giving an example as to why any/all outside sources of login numbers cannot be trusted.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    When Rowan points out the discrepancy between talk and action it demonstrates they are thinking about what their customers want and looking as data; not just their forumite customers, but the totality of the playerbase. The implication of his statement is that the vocal forumites are not necessarily representative of the total playerbase.

    This is the perception gap that a lot of forum posters can't get past: the forum is not necessarily a good representation of the player base, and Turbine has a much better idea of what is going on (what is getting run, what is not getting run, what classes are getting played) etc than the forum 'experts.'

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Questionable sources? You mean data from the actual company?

    The only people who attempt to demonize the source of data are those who disagree with the conclusions drawn by that data. What data do they bring to the table to refute the claim? None.
    To be fair, you're the one denying data based on anecdotal evidence. The only one that has data is Turbine. And you're saying their data must be wrong because you remember things differently.

  7. #127
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Revenue quiz:

    Which makes more money?

    A. A million soloers playing and paying $10 each.

    B. Fifty thousand raiders each paying $10.

    If hoards of new player come and play alone Turbine could potentially make more money than ever. The success of the game doesn't have to hinge on PUGs. What you don't seem to understand is that some folks will come, play and never even bother to look at the LFM panel or care one iota about it.
    Prove there are 1 million soloers because the DDO Oracle logins sure as hell don't back that.

    This is irrefutable . . . less people are playing now then when MoTU went live. EGH got more of a bump than Shadwfell. If the course Turbine was on was a good one this would not be the case.

    Just agree with me, my opinion is better anyway.

  8. #128
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    Turbine has 2 customers, for the sake of argument they both spend equal amounts of money on the game. Customer A loves raiding and loot. Customer B hates it. Customer B likes cosmetic pets, Customer A hates it.
    If it comes down to a vote between Raids and Costmetic Pets - RAIDS all the way!

  9. #129
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    And yet, we are still chugging along at an avg of 12.5k-15k+ logins per day, give or take, for the last 4 updates.

    But it is convenient to ignore the upward trend of logins since the latest update because that does not follow DooOOmmMM111!!!! now does it.

    I wish a few more would follow suit and find a different game to doom all over and leave the rest of us alone.
    Theres always an uptick of logins after an update, followed by another decline shortly thereafter when peopel get bored of it. The time in between is the difference between the time the people who returned got bored, and the release of the next update - which is getting longer and longer - something I have been pointing out for the past 18 months now.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #130
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Questionable sources? You mean data from the actual company?

    The only people who attempt to demonize the source of data are those who disagree with the conclusions drawn by that data. What data do they bring to the table to refute the claim? None.
    What company? Turbine does not release these numbers and you know that. Immaterial as we both can use these numbers to proove a point.

    So then you agree that we are still averaging 12-15k logins since MOTU.

    You agree then that we are seeing an upward climb in logins since latest update.

    The numbers do not lie, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  11. #131
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Prove there are 1 million soloers because the DDO Oracle logins sure as hell don't back that.

    Ok, genius, show me where I ever said a million people play. You should just sit back and be glad people like Chai & Iron are arguing your side.

  12. #132
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Revenue quiz:

    Which makes more money?

    A. A million soloers playing and paying $10 each.

    B. Fifty thousand raiders each paying $10.

    If hoards of new player come and play alone Turbine could potentially make more money than ever. The success of the game doesn't have to hinge on PUGs. What you don't seem to understand is that some folks will come, play and never even bother to look at the LFM panel or care one iota about it.
    Thats now how p2w/f2p/cash shop games are monetized. It is the smallest percentage that spends the most, ~2-4% of the population.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I am absolutely correct, and you are assuming this. You even posted that its all about the percentage of the player base and a low percentage has low revenue implications. I showed you otherwise, through having a clear understanding of how p2w/f2p/cash shop game monetization works.
    You are incorrect, and are attempting to put words in my mouth even while you continue to confirm everything I've stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    ... if the percentage of the playerbase running raids is smaller than we might think, it still makes sense to cater to those players to the extent their involvement adds to the bottom line.
    I quite clearly did not state that low percentage necessitates low revenue and explicitly allowed for it to be disproportional. It remains true that as the percentage of players who spend money relative to raiding increases, the revenue that Turbine can expect to accrue by catering to things that raiding players want increases as well. Though you'd like to make it seem like you're arguing with me instead of agreeing with everything I've stated, you have again confirmed my position that the data Turbine has is the only reliable source for what the actual percentage of players who run raids is and for what their actual contribution to Turbine's revenue is.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Must have been one hell of a memory leak during MOTU to generate so many logins for so many people too.


    .
    What does MOTU have to do with what I was replying to?

    I was replying to this :
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    But it is convenient to ignore the upward trend of logins since the latest update because that does not follow DooOOmmMM111!!!! now does it.

    Again, the upward trend is probably more due to the memory leak which forced people to relog rather than just switch characters. I myself relog 2-3 times a session whereas before I would log in just once and switch characters. Swapping stuff between my toons on the shared bank is a pain because of this.

  15. #135
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    But these laughable "way back when" memories from the what, 10% of the playerbase who posts to the forums hold as much water as ponderings over what Turbine's usage data actually is: zero. It is still fun to speculate, though.
    I always like it when somebody posts on the forums that since forum posters are such a small percentage of players their opinions are valueless, as though the people saying this are somehow forgetting that they too are forum posters...

    True: nobody on the forums represents the entirety of the player base.
    False: nobody on the forums represents any of the playerbase.

    Ludicrous: claiming in a forum post that forum posts have no value.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 09-04-2013 at 05:28 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  16. #136
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    What company? Turbine does not release these numbers and you know that. Immaterial as we both can use these numbers to proove a point.

    So then you agree that we are still averaging 12-15k logins since MOTU.

    You agree then that we are seeing an upward climb in logins since latest update.

    The numbers do not lie, right?

    Yeap, just like I explained. What you stated reinforces my point, even if you are attempting to disagree.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #137
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Prove there are 1 million soloers because the DDO Oracle logins sure as hell don't back that.

    This is irrefutable . . . less people are playing now then when MoTU went live. EGH got more of a bump than Shadwfell. If the course Turbine was on was a good one this would not be the case.

    Just agree with me, my opinion is better anyway.
    So?

    And there were probable less people playing MOTU then when DDO went live.

    You act surprised that there were huge logins for our first X-pac.

    And yet, we still have an avg of 12-15k logins a day since then and are seeing an upward climb since the last x-pac.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Thats now how p2w/f2p/cash shop games are monetized. It is the smallest percentage that spends the most, ~2-4% of the population.
    It's quite clear you've never actually played a p2w game. You're right, that is how they are monetized. This game isn't because despite all the doom, it isn't actually p2w. You've declared a false premise and are starting to build upon it. I'd backtrack a bit because your points are eventually going to be completely off.

  19. #139
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobieDoo View Post
    What does MOTU have to do with what I was replying to?

    I was replying to this :



    Again, the upward trend is probably more due to the memory leak which forced people to relog rather than just switch characters. I myself relog 2-3 times a session whereas before I would log in just once and switch characters. Swapping stuff between my toons on the shared bank is a pain because of this.
    Of course, HAS to be memory leak and not because more people are playing.


    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  20. #140
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    To be fair, you're the one denying data based on anecdotal evidence. The only one that has data is Turbine. And you're saying their data must be wrong because you remember things differently.
    Nope, Im saying that the assumption that they are analyzing raids WHEN THEY WERE ENDGAME is an incorrect assumption. This was back before TR was even in the game. What else did people do at cap back then?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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