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  1. #21
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Raids dont experience alot of traffic because most of them drop loot that either is invalidated by power creep or is niche/TR twink gear at best.

    In the first 2 years of this game we had 9 raids. Every single one of those was run quite a bit, because most of that loot still mattered.

    Since raids are the last bastion of having artificial time barriers limiting how many times they can be run, if the loot isnt worth it, people dont run it. They also wont spend money on timer bypass to run a raid where the loot is long obsolete.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #22
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You are absolutely delusion if you believe the Turbine dev team is unable to read data trends. It is much more likely you're misreading the situation from the limited data you have. It's always better to fit your opinions to reality than try to twist realty to fit your opinions.
    They read trends wrong, have since the end of 2011.

    And my opinions are reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I can't imagine how bad of a player one must be for loot to change them from a piker to awesome.
    You should see my bard, I still pike but now I pike with an ESoS that looks awesome. And that's really what it's all about, piking in style.

  3. #23
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Raids dont experience alot of traffic because most of them drop loot that either is invalidated by power creep or is niche/TR twink gear at best.
    When Chai and I agree it is fact.

    Oh heck, it's still fact when Chai disagrees with me but whatever.

  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livmo View Post
    Greetings,

    I love the Sharn Syndicate pack. Please give Sharn epic levels and a raid.

    More Sharn!

    Livmo
    LOVE this pack as well, this is a great low-level pack.

    Sharn would be kinda cool if they decide to go back to Eberon.

  5. #25
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    What I see in more than a couple instances lately is Turbine Dev's in their newly communicative forum presence revealing "metrics" and their thought process on how to fix/deal with those "metrics"

    You've got Rowan's quote about raids, there's also Feather's reveal of why they made the new random loot so spreadsheety and full of ghostbane.

    Here's the problem, in both cases it seems like intelligent Developers have made incorrect conclusions from their data. At least from the outside looking into the peeks they've given.

    New players leave the game because "undead are hard" (so make undead less hard w/ Ghostbane everywhere). Wrong conclusion = wrong fix. New players leave DDO because DDO IS HARD, it's complex, it has complex FPS like controls, and complex quest mechanics, it's got complex immunities and vulnerabilities and weapons choices and spell choices and etc. etc.... Undead are hard is simply THE FIRST SIGN THAT THIS SPECIFIC NEW PLAYER IS NOT LIKELY TO ENJOY A COMPLEX HIGH SKILL CEILING GAME.

    Then Rowans quote about Raids are more popular on the forums than in game, so spend less time concentrating on raids? But raids were once upon a time FAR MORE POPULAR than now. Currently most of them have obsolete gear, so of course they aren't popular, no ones running them because they don't have stuff that is worth getting.

    But also: DDO used to have an END GAME, a bunch of epics and raids that formed a large pool of replayable content... this kept players busy between updates.... Now we have NOTHING 2 raids and mostly outmoded obsolete gear in the epics... THERE'S NOTHING TO DO BETWEEN UPDATES, so of course people leave in droves, and the game dies a little more every lull.

    I would love to ask Turbine to go back and look at relative player attrition between then and now, I'm guessing that back then a much lower percentage of the player base left the game between updates... Some of that would be because the game was newer, and had less F2P competition, but some of that would also be because there WAS MORE TO DO, and more importantly MORE TO ASPIRE TO DO (i.e. gearing up to be more effective in Amrath, and other hard raids and epics)... DDO presently has in comparison: NOTHING TO ASPIRE TO DO.

    This last expansion barely nudged the bar up, the game is in serious trouble. The combo of meta gaming (everyone knows the quests like the back of their hands) and lack of a highly replayable block of content (like old 20th level end game) combined with stretching a SHRINKING player base out, have the rather predictable result of making it harder to find GROUPS in a grouping centric game. So put most of those old end game epics and raids back to being endgame, (Just buff the loot and the mob CR's, don't revamp) the only other solution is to make 6 or 8 raids and 12 or 15 new "Epics" at level 28 in a short enough period of time that the game doesn't bleed out from attrition. That's 3 or 4 years worth of content... We don't have 3 or 4 years at the present rate of attrition.

    THERE WERE 4 LFM'S LAST NIGHT ON THELANIS the lowest number I've ever seen by 10, outside of the login server being down... The all caps are needed to convey that this game is desperately in need of a new and fundamentally sound direction... or there wont be anyone left playing it in a few months. The start of that new direction needs to be more dialog with the player base, and a better understanding of how DDO is played and why some people don't "catch on" to DDO and leave with exit surveys like "I hate undead they are hard to kill, and I don't raid".

    I would love to see DDO players unite and create a player counsel, the first order of business would be to try and have a dialog with Turbine about the direction of DDO and how the Developers who don't seem to play it on live or understand how it is played by in large (i.e. in PUG's and in situations where players don't know each other or not well), and these player metrics and what they may or may not actually indicate.

    Once last thought: EVE online has complexity, richness, depth, and a strong player base... Don't be afraid of targeting hard core gamers DDO, just start listening and stop chasing WoW.

    Excellent post, but it's doubtful that any of that will sink in with the devs or the all is fine fanbois.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 09-04-2013 at 01:10 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Any of this is only true if they don't have information about raids pre-MOTU. It is quite possible that their information shows that raids were never ever popular in DDO, in which case, all the forum chatter is just forum chatter, not reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You are absolutely delusional if you believe this was the reality pre-MoTU.
    Really? It's purely speculative but looks possible to me. When VoD, HoX, VoN, RF and Z were all being run more frequently, what percentage of the playerbase actually ran them once a week, let alone every 3 days? 10%? 15%? What percentage of the playerbase set foot in them more than once or twice each life if at all? 30%? Only Turbine knows but usage figures like that would not surprise me, there are a lot of moderately casual players or people who party in static groups for whom raids just aren't attractive. Powergamers playing in powergamer circles are going to have a very skewed impression of percentages in this case.

    To be clear, I'm not saying it IS low, but it IS possible that it is low. If only Rowan would just out with some actual figures instead of implying it.

    Anyway, loot is definitely not the end all be all; there's one "raid" I make a point to run 3 or 4 times each life despite worthless loot and marginal xp - Tempest's Spine. It's just fun. For some reason that's held up better (for me) than one room fights like VoD, HoX and Reavers that had become onerously boring long before MOTU came out.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    And how many more people were playing DDO in general? Even if thousands of people were participating in raids, it's the same as five people if we're associating percentages with popularity.
    To answer you, we don't know for sure, however back then MOST OF THE LFM WINDOW WAS END GAME... Back then 15 or 20 level 1 though 16 LFM's was normal... While 10 to 15 level 17-20 LFM's at the same time, was also normal.
    In other words the vast bulk of the player base was concentrated at 20 playing end game content, including 3 or 4 shrouds filling on the LFM panel at all times day or night. Even 3 in the morning there would be three Shrouds filling. Not exaggerating, in fact it was often MORE. two or three TOD's and VON's at all times, a couple Abbots, hounds and VOD's... If you wanted to do a raid, and it wasn't up, one would be within minutes. And would fill within 5 or 10 minutes.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  8. #28
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    I'd be interested in the data on raid vs questing data that the developers have, but would likely not get my hands on it. Given that, we're limited to our anecdotal experiences that could be biased by the types of people that go to the forums vs the general public. I think it'd be hard to compare quests vs raids given one has an artificial time limit and the other doesn't, and I'd be interested to see what the churn is on players that do raids vs those who didn't.

    That said, I can agree that I played raids a lot more and had a much more socially knit experience back when the raids were end-game. Having raids be sub-end game tends to make them not run, unless they are free to play. For example, chronoscope when it was still an end game raid had both heroic and epic settings, and it at least appeared like a significant number of people were running epic more than heroic. After MOTU came out all of the end-game raids became mid-tier game raids. And that is the crash in player interest a lot of people are seeing. The XP/loot didn't keep pace with the time investment to make it a worthwhile leveling quest, and if its not an end-game challenge it just lacks that appeal.

    It seems to me that one cost-effective investment would be to epic-size all raids, and that means with regards to both XP and loot.
    Kobold never forgive....kobold remember waterworks.

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    i'll be putting a bug into our system.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Once last thought: EVE online has complexity, richness, depth, and a strong player base... Don't be afraid of targeting hard core gamers DDO, just start listening and stop chasing WoW.
    LOL, EVE also has the worst gameplay ever implemented in a game. Eve succeeds because of the awesome player base and awesome player created content that could never succeed here. If Turbine implemented an "anything goes, p2w and shady dealings encouraged" model for DDO, this player base would literally cry in a corner. They're two totally different games that succeed for different reasons and those reasons would never work in the other's ecosystem.

  10. #30
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    To answer you, we don't know for sure, however back then MOST OF THE LFM WINDOW WAS END GAME... Back then 15 or 20 level 1 though 16 LFM's was normal... While 10 to 15 level 17-20 LFM's at the same time, was also normal.
    In other words the vast bulk of the player base was concentrated at 20 playing end game content, including 3 or 4 shrouds filling on the LFM panel at all times day or night. Even 3 in the morning there would be three Shrouds filling. Not exaggerating, in fact it was often MORE. two or three TOD's and VON's at all times, a couple Abbots, hounds and VOD's... If you wanted to do a raid, and it wasn't up, one would be within minutes. And would fill within 5 or 10 minutes.
    Checking the "who" list back in the day confirms this. People who didn't run epics still raided. Anyone saying otherwise is just wrong.

  11. #31
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Really? It's purely speculative but looks possible to me. When VoD, HoX, VoN, RF and Z were all being run more frequently, what percentage of the playerbase actually ran them once a week, let alone every 3 days? 10%? 15%? What percentage of the playerbase set foot in them more than once or twice each life if at all? 30%? Only Turbine knows but usage figures like that would not surprise me, there are a lot of moderately casual players or people who party in static groups for whom raids just aren't attractive. Powergamers playing in powergamer circles are going to have a very skewed impression of percentages in this case.

    To be clear, I'm not saying it IS low, but it IS possible that it is low. If only Rowan would just out with some actual figures instead of implying it.

    Anyway, loot is definitely not the end all be all; there's one "raid" I make a point to run 3 or 4 times each life despite worthless loot and marginal xp - Tempest's Spine. It's just fun. For some reason that's held up better (for me) than one room fights like VoD, HoX and Reavers that had become onerously boring long before MOTU came out.
    100% of the players worth a damn raided.

  12. #32
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    all is fin fanbois.
    You got that right, all is going to be "fin" if they keep denying the obvious

    PS I liked the spelling before you edited it better "fin" being french for "The end"
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    100% of the players worth a damn raided.
    Well if Turbine's data shows that roughly 100% percent of their revenue comes from players who raid, they'll agree with you!

  14. #34
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    I think i might as well be a good example as a player, and it's the same for 3 of my guildies.

    Pre-Motu, we used to raid a lot (Shroud, ToD, VoD, HoX, ADQ, eChrono and rarely LoB). We were also doing epics etc... Rarely we were TR'ing. We were certainly not the most hardcore players and none of us would consider himself "elite". Just dedicated average players (i guess).

    When Motu arrived, we all quit after 3-4 weeks. The reasons were : CiTW isnt a fun raid and we were really sad that our old epic/raid stuff wasn't as good as some random stuff. We were upset that we had a lot less reason to run the old raids. We didnt enjoy most of the new quests, the epic XP needed for twists was ridiculous, we didnt enjoy the huge explo areas where we had to run a long time to reach the quests.

    I came back for eGH (not my friends). I loved the idea that they put an old pack back into endgame. Grinded my scale armor and got bored in about a month. FoT isn't terrible but not very good IMO. And it's just 1 raid.

    After trying quite a lot of f2p AAA mmorpgs, i can easily say that DDO is from far the most fun gameplay wise. No contest. So here i am, back. One of my guildy is back as well. We both TR'd just to enjoy the 1-20 content again. I'm having a blast. And i know that once i reach cap i'll just get bored within a month again. And we're just not into TRing over and over again.

    Bottomline : statistically, i count as a non raider. But what i really want from the game is good raids so i can enjoy my stay at cap with my beloved character.

    I really wish they would update old loot, old raids, old systems that were never finished etc...

  15. #35
    Community Member NXPlasmid's Avatar
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    Raids that drop top level useful loot are critical to the overall structure of the game. If there were awesome items, or upgrades of existing items, or even better, a way to upgrade current named ones from the particular raids, that perhaps only dropped on epic elite,they would get run much much more. I think it is a mistake to ignore the entire structure of the game, of which raids and raid loot play an important part is a very big mistake. The problem if there are only quests, then the reason for grinding out EDs becomes much less... Awesome epic raid loots are the primary motivator in this game for a large portion of the players, even if they don't raid often, they idea and the desire is still there... Tspoon
    On Khyber: Tchpostick (Monk 20) Tablespoon (WF barb20), Pspoon (Eleven Cleric20), Tsirio (Halfling Bard18), Silvr (Human Rogue2/Wizard18), Ladle (Elven Cleric11), Forq (Human Bard14), Sporkk (Human Fighter lvl20), Tspatula (monk20)

  16. #36
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Probably 30%-40% of the people I know have left the game after motu killed raiding. They all spent at least some on a continous basis. Raids not getting actual use? Yeah that's because you started driving off paying customers last year.

  17. #37
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    I don't suppose it occurs to most of you, but could it possibly be that a sizeable number of gamers don't raid not because of the loot but because they don't wish to be bothered? Rather, some players don't wish to play anything that can't be done solo. My personal impression is that such antisocial gamers as myself are an underestimated but considerable part of the gaming population. You raiding types like to think that you're typical and speak for the rest of us, but Producer Rowan seems to be implying that you're not in fact typical of the DDO audience and I'd like to tip my hat to him (if I had a hat).

  18. #38
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    More raids is always a good thing. Please, please Devs bring forth the epic loot in the next update.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  19. #39
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    I don't suppose it occurs to most of you, but could it possibly be that a sizeable number of gamers don't raid not because of the loot but because they don't wish to be bothered? Rather, some players don't wish to play anything that can't be done solo. My personal impression is that such antisocial gamers as myself are an underestimated but considerable part of the gaming population. You raiding types like to think that you're typical and speak for the rest of us, but Producer Rowan seems to be implying that you're not in fact typical of the DDO audience and I'd like to tip my hat to him (if I had a hat).
    Hope you have a large wallet then, look at the money grabs since they drove off the playing customers that liked to raid.

  20. #40
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badkhan View Post
    Bottomline : statistically, i count as a non raider. But what i really want from the game is good raids so i can enjoy my stay at cap with my beloved character.

    I really wish they would update old loot, old raids, old systems that were never finished etc...
    Statistically EVERYONE is a non-raider at this point as barely any raids happen even for the raiders.

    The reason is the loot is not worth pursuing.

    It is this simple.

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