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  1. #1
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default To Producer Rowan & Company:

    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    Raids get a lot of forum traffic but not necessarily the player usage.
    I'm sure you have, but I'll put this out there anyway: please consider the implications and probable causes for why that is.

    Raids get a lot of forum traffic, because they're desired based on a few assumed & traditional premises. The lack of "player usage" is directly traceable to Menace of the Underdark.

    •Raids drop the best loot.
    This has been a loot principle for as long as I can remember. Pre MotU, it was (largely) true in DDO. Sure, there were quest based exceptions like The Baubble; but really Tod, Shroud, Abbot, Titan, Reavers, Demon Queen, Hound, VoD and VoN all maintained relevance from their inception on. They were our only dependable source of +3/4 Tomes. Epic DQ, VoN and Chronoscope took heroically good (and in some cases still epically viable) gear and gave it Epic upgrades. All these raids, even the mid-level ones, dropped the "must haves for uberness" and were therefor run consistently as an "end game" activity. With MotU you killed the gear and surpassed the tomes, and the need for epic level/destiny xp meant we needed to spend time in higher level content. You promised us two new raids, and delivered one, so until Epic Gianthold we had ONE cap level relevant raid. Now we have 2 with a third on the way (yay, another promise of a future raid!) plus an increased level cap with another on the way. Yikes, this recipe is not looking good so far.

    •Social Experience
    Raids gave guilds ways to gather a large contingent of their members together in one place. They also made the best mixers. Being that they called for a 12 person group, even one mostly filled by guildies usually needed to pug out a few spots, and this allowed for both social and strategic circles to broaden. Killing off the incentive to run most of the games raids removed the opportunity for large group interaction; especially since changes in quest design, dungeon alert & scaling reward small group & solo play over full group questing. We miss our social gatherings but also want to have them in a rewarding environment and most existing raids are not that.

    •Coolness
    Raids usually featured quest design & mechanics that were different from the rest of the game. Other than a few pieces of TR twink loot, this is the only aspect of the older non-epic raids that kept us coming back to them post MotU, and you can tell from your own metrics (reflected in the quoted statement) how much allure those had to the general populace; so the message is clear: we want/need incentives to run raids, and we would prefer them to be "end game" relevant.

    •The Shroud
    Please please please learn from this raid. It is still (IMHO) run more than any other raid. It's loot is TR lovelyness that can still maintain some epic relevance. It has lots of elements from timing order (portals & part two bosses/crystal) to puzzles to tough boss beat downs. Sure, with destiny power portal orders don't matter so much, and the boss beat downs are a lot easier; but just one guy out of sinc with the rest can make part 2 rough, and people not paying attention can still wipe a group in parts 4 or 5. The quintessential DDO raid for future inspiration.

    So to recap: level cap increases, power creep (leap), and changes in gear design & mechanics have invalidated pretty much everything the preMotU raids had to offer, other than a social experience; but we want that experience in a loot rewarding environment. We were supposed to get 2 MotU raids, and then EGH. Instead we got 1 MotU raid full of mechanics that irritated the playerbase, and then EGH. That is not an end game raid environment. Is it really that surprising raids don't currently get a lot of in game attention? Maybe that undelivered on raid we were promised would've been more apealing than CitW, maybe not, but if just that 1 more were delivered we would have 50% more cap level raids to run than we do now. This is why you see a lot of forum traffic about raids without an in-game correlation.

    So our immediate future holds the following: another raid, for a total of 3 - assuming this next one comes to fruition and isn't just another empty promise - and another level cap increase to 30. Supposedly 30 is the long term cap plan, and I dearly hope this is so. With a stable level cap, you can build an end game environment that includes raids. Create some new ones, update some old ones, or better yet do both. Learn from Shroud about what keeps a raid relevant over the long haul, learn from Abbot and Titan what keeps some interesting inspite of loot irrelevance, and learn from CitW what we don't want.

    Apologies to all if I babbled a bit up there, please feel free to critique, revise or add your own opinions on the matter. Who knows? Maybe a dev/rep/producer will even converse with us about it some...

    •TL;DR
    Give us cool, entertaining raids with loot relevant to level cap and you'll see the forum chatter/in game correlation you're looking for. Keep breaking promises about delivering raids and raising level caps faster than you develop sufficient content and there's simply no possable way for that correlation to happen.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  2. #2
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    Well said and well reasoned.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  3. #3
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    Well said. I agree.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  4. #4
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    Well said, except that you forgot to mention the main problem in this game, which is BtC space.
    I don't see a point of any raid if you can't loot anything.
    Last edited by TheRobai; 09-04-2013 at 06:04 AM.

  5. #5
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    Very well said thanks for posting.

  6. #6
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    I agree with the basic premise of your ideas but I feel that I disagree about one key point.

    The lack of player usage is not directly linked to Menace of the Underdark, it is linked to items.

    Your first bulleted paragraph is the reason. People stopped running select raids, before even MOTU & CiTW because they already had the loot available and the only way to upgrade raid loot besides CiTW (except for Seal of the Black Abbot) was the Shroud which gave you additional max # of items.

    The combination of powerful items and the ability to increase the number of those that you could utilize is what kept people running it. Pre-raid flagging aside, imagine all the Zawabi's Revenge items were still end-game but you had to run Zawabi's Revenge multiple times to equip them at the same time.

    Take a particular item, as an example, the Epic Chaosblade. If the Chaosblade was better then the Drow Khopesh of the Weapon Master. In other words, consider it a superior item DPS-wise and include Stunning +10 and even +15 with Heroic Commendation upgrade. In the same way, as the Shroud, what if you had to acquire some essence to counteract the chaotic forces contained in the Chaosblade, or you could not dual-wield them?

    If someone had the the ability to have an additional end-game Khopesh in the off-hand, they would run that raid just as much as they did for additional Shroud items.

    Same goes for the Torc, there is an element of random-ness there too! If you were only able to use your Transform Kinetic Energy/Torc of Prince Rayium-de II with the Conc. Opp items by running additional Zawabi's Revenge runs then that is exactly what people would do, until their items were able to work together!

    Even with the frustrating drop rates of Zawabi's Revenge, they would grumble more, but I think they would continue to do it.

    My point is, the older Raids were not abandoned because they uninteresting, it just seems that people do not want to run Raids for tomes alone. This is evidenced when people started re-running the Abbot to get Seals and then almost universally the Raid is hardly run again.

    My point is, people run Raids for the items *and* the challenge, it would be much more cost-effective to upgrade existing Raid items with Heroic Commendations (people WILL run raids for these, if they have the items) and people will once again visit the older Raids.

    Creating another Raid will not get as much use as making EIGHT active raids valid again:

    • A Vision of Destruction
    • Ascension Chamber
    • Hound of Xoriat
    • The Chronoscope
    • The Titan Awakes
    • Plane of Night
    • Tower of Despair
    • Zawabi's Revenge


    You could even take another existing raid, Tempest's Spine and make that into an Epic raid to extend the raiding even longer! Some new people coming into this game have never played any except Tempest's Spine. . .and that is a tragedy because I consider them great content.

    The other problem I referenced, is challenge. People, no matter what you give them as loot, will not appreciate the value of it, if the Raid content is not challenging any longer.

    Turbine could add a single mechanic to each that would make them more challenging, and that could be as simple as a timer that indicates that you failed unless you destroy the raid boss within a set period.

    Perhaps in Zawabi's Revenge since the Marilith always appears in the center of the platform, something that makes the edges of the platform dangerous as well etc. . .

    If you update items and give an additional challenge, the raiding scene will last longer than just another round of items. . .there will be thoughtful decisions to overcome the challenges and which items to slot as a result of that effort.

    I absolutely agree whole-heartedly about pacing being important. I am glad we agree there. I just wish we agreed that a system to make Turbine additional money,*, would allow them to wait longer because those additional salaries are gonna need to be paid somehow.

    To get scheduling correct, is it easier to plan it far in advance (and have it paid for) or have to rush and try to push content out after the update you just released because it did not make the bottom-line that you expected it to??

    *purposely left out not to derail topic, based on your beliefs that scheduling was very important, I believe this is relevant. I believe in living by the golden rule.

    A great post, Perma.

  7. #7
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    I'm not a heavy raid guy anymore. I'm just not super into a lot of the raids in the game, for a variety of reasons. Some of that is me, some of that is the design of many of the actual raids (not too keen on watching two members of the raid do the lion's share, while the rest are support at best).



    However, I think the decision to not include a raid in the new pack was misguided. Yeah, it might not be for me - but even super-casual-little-ol-me knows more folks who do raid then those who don't. And, I might add, that out of all of those fellow players, I'm the most forum active. People raid when there is a clear and compelling reason to do so. If that curve is falling off - then that says more about the raids then the players, imho. The raids that are fun and have compelling loot get run, it's that simple.

    When the raids offer little in the way of valuable reward in terms of loot, which this game has a long record of invalidating raid loot in short order... loot gen has been better then 99% of raid loot for over a year now, probably longer... raid activity dies off. When raids are not fun for the twelve people running them - raid activity dies off. And I think that is the truth behind the statistics y'all are likely looking at. It's not that people don't want to raid, it's that they have little to raid for, in terms of reward and fun.



    It was a mistake, pure and simple, and again this is from the perspective of a mostly non-raider. But, it's not my game to run - and I'm sure y'all will still wrap yourselves in the warm and fuzzy blanket of self-assuredness that all it well.
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  8. #8
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    Just because something is tradition doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Raids are stupid and it looks like Turbine is figuring that out. I’ve spoken with many people in raids & some friends too. All but one person said they run them just for the loot. When pressed, all the others I spoke with said they don’t really enjoy raiding. I think we all know what happens when the bribe is taken away – nobody is running them now.

    Oh, please upgrade the loot so people will run raids.

    It’s pretty sad that the best loot has to be put in these things for anyone to want to run them. Arguing because they historically had the best loot doesn’t mean that going into the future it has to stay that way. Past performance is no indication of future performance. No argument there.

    As far as coolness is concerned, any dungeon can be made cool/have good mechanics. The developers just have to make them cool. There’s no reason in the world cool dungeons have to be raids. I have no idea why this is relevant at all. Just ask the developers to make cool dungeons.

    Social Experience. It seems to me that people play a game to have fun. I’m all for everyone having that ability. I suggest people get together and ask the developers to make big, cool dungeons. Not raids, dungeons. They can be cool. They can be big (though it would be nice to have some sort of checkpoints/ logout chambers or something to save progress). Then, the developers could make the scaling so you could bring in 1-12 people. I’m all for people who want to play with 12 people to have the ability to do so. This way, everyone gets what they want. If you like to play big cool dungeons with 12 people, you are set!

    Using this method, everyone gets what they want. If people still don’t join 12 person parties; that will tell you all you need to know. Let the people vote. I don’t like sitting here reading that people are upset because they cannot play in the large groups they would like to be in. I don’t like that there is a hard limit of 6 people & large guilds/large groups cannot get together and do their thing. I say heck yeah, give them that ability.

    There is no need though to differentiate dungeons by calling one a dungeon and the other a raid. Make all dungeons accessible to 12 people and those who like that can have what they want. I know older dungeons are probably not good candidates for adjusting to this but there’s no reason going into the future that the dev’s couldn’t design around 12 people but still provide methods for smaller parties to enter/complete.

  9. #9
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    Unfortunately, Permaband the strongest point you make for raids is being invalidated by changes to loot. If you can get the best gear without running raids, why run raids?

    As for the other points, they can be incorporated into regular quests, with the exception of allowing (requiring at level) 11 other players.

    So that leaves you with really only wanting quests that need/can have 12 players to be completed at level.

    Is this sufficient for arguing that raids need to be a part of the game, or could content development resources be better spent on designing new content that can/will be run by most players over raids, which will be consistently run by a sub-group of players?

  10. #10
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    There's a lot of good points made by the above posters and I don't believe any of the reasons are wrong. I would only be repeating what they said. Hopefully ProducerRowan reads this and has a better understanding of raids, why people run them and the cause and affect the loot has on how players approach raids.

  11. #11
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    I would like to add that they need to actually have raid bosses that are badass instead of whiny @#^%$es. The pit fiends are all satisfying to kill. The LoB was satisfying to defeat. Toven was satisfying to bring down and so were the warforged titans.

    Lolth was not... maybe because we weren't allowed to defeat her, only a mostly helpless npc was. Lolth spends the entire raid boasting about how we can't defeat her, and guess what, she was right... only an NPC could defeat her, no matter what the players did. Completions of that raid are incredibly unsatisfying. Please give us better quality bosses than that in the future.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I'm sure you have, but I'll put this out there anyway: please consider the implications and probable causes for why that is.

    Raids get a lot of forum traffic, because they're desired based on a few assumed & traditional premises. The lack of "player usage" is directly traceable to Menace of the Underdark.

    •Raids drop the best loot.
    This has been a loot principle for as long as I can remember. Pre MotU, it was (largely) true in DDO. Sure, there were quest based exceptions like The Baubble; but really Tod, Shroud, Abbot, Titan, Reavers, Demon Queen, Hound, VoD and VoN all maintained relevance from their inception on. They were our only dependable source of +3/4 Tomes. Epic DQ, VoN and Chronoscope took heroically good (and in some cases still epically viable) gear and gave it Epic upgrades. All these raids, even the mid-level ones, dropped the "must haves for uberness" and were therefor run consistently as an "end game" activity. With MotU you killed the gear and surpassed the tomes, and the need for epic level/destiny xp meant we needed to spend time in higher level content. You promised us two new raids, and delivered one, so until Epic Gianthold we had ONE cap level relevant raid. Now we have 2 with a third on the way (yay, another promise of a future raid!) plus an increased level cap with another on the way. Yikes, this recipe is not looking good so far.

    •Social Experience
    Raids gave guilds ways to gather a large contingent of their members together in one place. They also made the best mixers. Being that they called for a 12 person group, even one mostly filled by guildies usually needed to pug out a few spots, and this allowed for both social and strategic circles to broaden. Killing off the incentive to run most of the games raids removed the opportunity for large group interaction; especially since changes in quest design, dungeon alert & scaling reward small group & solo play over full group questing. We miss our social gatherings but also want to have them in a rewarding environment and most existing raids are not that.

    •Coolness
    Raids usually featured quest design & mechanics that were different from the rest of the game. Other than a few pieces of TR twink loot, this is the only aspect of the older non-epic raids that kept us coming back to them post MotU, and you can tell from your own metrics (reflected in the quoted statement) how much allure those had to the general populace; so the message is clear: we want/need incentives to run raids, and we would prefer them to be "end game" relevant.

    •The Shroud
    Please please please learn from this raid. It is still (IMHO) run more than any other raid. It's loot is TR lovelyness that can still maintain some epic relevance. It has lots of elements from timing order (portals & part two bosses/crystal) to puzzles to tough boss beat downs. Sure, with destiny power portal orders don't matter so much, and the boss beat downs are a lot easier; but just one guy out of sinc with the rest can make part 2 rough, and people not paying attention can still wipe a group in parts 4 or 5. The quintessential DDO raid for future inspiration.

    So to recap: level cap increases, power creep (leap), and changes in gear design & mechanics have invalidated pretty much everything the preMotU raids had to offer, other than a social experience; but we want that experience in a loot rewarding environment. We were supposed to get 2 MotU raids, and then EGH. Instead we got 1 MotU raid full of mechanics that irritated the playerbase, and then EGH. That is not an end game raid environment. Is it really that surprising raids don't currently get a lot of in game attention? Maybe that undelivered on raid we were promised would've been more apealing than CitW, maybe not, but if just that 1 more were delivered we would have 50% more cap level raids to run than we do now. This is why you see a lot of forum traffic about raids without an in-game correlation.

    So our immediate future holds the following: another raid, for a total of 3 - assuming this next one comes to fruition and isn't just another empty promise - and another level cap increase to 30. Supposedly 30 is the long term cap plan, and I dearly hope this is so. With a stable level cap, you can build an end game environment that includes raids. Create some new ones, update some old ones, or better yet do both. Learn from Shroud about what keeps a raid relevant over the long haul, learn from Abbot and Titan what keeps some interesting inspite of loot irrelevance, and learn from CitW what we don't want.

    Apologies to all if I babbled a bit up there, please feel free to critique, revise or add your own opinions on the matter. Who knows? Maybe a dev/rep/producer will even converse with us about it some...

    •TL;DR
    Give us cool, entertaining raids with loot relevant to level cap and you'll see the forum chatter/in game correlation you're looking for. Keep breaking promises about delivering raids and raising level caps faster than you develop sufficient content and there's simply no possable way for that correlation to happen.

    Any of this is only true if they don't have information about raids pre-MOTU. It is quite possible that their information shows that raids were never ever popular in DDO, in which case, all the forum chatter is just forum chatter, not reality.

    The real problem with raids in DDO is that they're pointless. No matter what loot drops, it isn't needed loot. It's just some optional stuff. It could be the greatest loot ever and remain the greatest loot ever. It's still totally optional, so the vast majority of people will not grind for it. This is not a pvp game. I don't need the loot to do anything. This leaves raids as a one and done endeavor. You run them once a life for xp and for the fun of it, and then you're done. This then leaves a very small pool of people for something that often people expect to fill with 12 people, instead of just going and soloing.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Any of this is only true if they don't have information about raids pre-MOTU. It is quite possible that their information shows that raids were never ever popular in DDO, in which case, all the forum chatter is just forum chatter, not reality.
    You are absolutely delusional if you believe this was the reality pre-MoTU.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The real problem with raids in DDO is that they're pointless. No matter what loot drops, it isn't needed loot. It's just some optional stuff. It could be the greatest loot ever and remain the greatest loot ever. It's still totally optional, so the vast majority of people will not grind for it. This is not a pvp game. I don't need the loot to do anything. This leaves raids as a one and done endeavor. You run them once a life for xp and for the fun of it, and then you're done. This then leaves a very small pool of people for something that often people expect to fill with 12 people, instead of just going and soloing.
    For the most part, but you will not find better weapons than the CiTW stuff for the most part and the comms to upgrade them drop most easily in FoT. Maybe that's the only reason these raids are run?

    Also some like to raise the bar of their playing to that slightly above mediocre piking, but we don't judge the rest of you too harshly.

  14. #14
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    Default The Sharn Syndicate

    Greetings,

    I love the Sharn Syndicate pack. Please give Sharn epic levels and a raid.

    More Sharn!

    Livmo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You are absolutely delusional if you believe this was the reality pre-MoTU.
    You are absolutely delusion if you believe the Turbine dev team is unable to read data trends. It is much more likely you're misreading the situation from the limited data you have. It's always better to fit your opinions to reality than try to twist realty to fit your opinions.



    For the most part, but you will not find better weapons than the CiTW stuff for the most part and the comms to upgrade them drop most easily in FoT. Maybe that's the only reason these raids are run?

    Also some like to raise the bar of their playing to that slightly above mediocre piking, but we don't judge the rest of you too harshly.
    I can't imagine how bad of a player one must be for loot to change them from a piker to awesome.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You are absolutely delusional if you believe this was the reality pre-MoTU.



    Also some like to raise the bar of their playing to that slightly above mediocre piking, but we don't judge the rest of you too harshly.
    As to your first point, I suppect that you do not have access to the data in question. So, it is intirely possible that you are the one in question. If your point relys on anecdotal evidence, it should be framed as such.

    As for the second point, unless you can demonstrate that it is impossible to make challenging quests without them being raids, this point is invalid also.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Also some like to raise the bar of their playing to that slightly above mediocre piking, but we don't judge the rest of you too harshly.

    Yeah, there's no opportunity to pike in raids. Never seen that happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Any of this is only true if they don't have information about raids pre-MOTU. It is quite possible that their information shows that raids were never ever popular in DDO, in which case, all the forum chatter is just forum chatter, not reality.
    It's an indisputable fact that Shroud and to a lesser extent TOD were immensely, wildly, popular at their peaks. Shroud used to be run several times a night just in LFMs. Many guilds ran it entirely within their own circles. It took a huge blow to the chin when they introduced the blades of certain death, but it mostly recovered when they backed those out. ADQ and VON were also very popular. Abbot, Hound and the the Artificer raids were much less popular due to tedious flagging requirements or huge wilderness runs. Titan, on the other hand, would virtually never have been run on Orien if it were not for the efforts of one tireless fellow that loved the raid. He still runs that one now in fact, which is kind of ironic -it probably gets run more than Hound and the Artificer raids just because of him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    It's an indisputable fact that Shroud and to a lesser extent TOD were immensely, wildly, popular at their peaks. Shroud used to be run several times a night just in LFMs. Many guilds ran it entirely within their own circles. It took a huge blow to the chin when they introduced the blades of certain death, but it mostly recovered when they backed those out. ADQ and VON were also very popular. Abbot, Hound and the the Artificer raids were much less popular due to tedious flagging requirements or huge wilderness runs. Titan, on the other hand, would virtually never have been run on Orien if it were not for the efforts of one tireless fellow that loved the raid. He still runs that one now in fact, which is kind of ironic -it probably gets run more than Hound and the Artificer raids just because of him.
    And how many more people were playing DDO in general? Even if thousands of people were participating in raids, it's the same as five people if we're associating percentages with popularity.

  20. #20
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    What I see in more than a couple instances lately is Turbine Dev's in their newly communicative forum presence revealing "metrics" and their thought process on how to fix/deal with those "metrics"

    You've got Rowan's quote about raids, there's also Feather's reveal of why they made the new random loot so spreadsheety and full of ghostbane.

    Here's the problem, in both cases it seems like intelligent Developers have made incorrect conclusions from their data. At least from the outside looking into the peeks they've given.

    New players leave the game because "undead are hard" (so make undead less hard w/ Ghostbane everywhere). Wrong conclusion = wrong fix. New players leave DDO because DDO IS HARD, it's complex, it has complex FPS like controls, and complex quest mechanics, it's got complex immunities and vulnerabilities and weapons choices and spell choices and etc. etc.... Undead are hard is simply THE FIRST SIGN THAT THIS SPECIFIC NEW PLAYER IS NOT LIKELY TO ENJOY A COMPLEX HIGH SKILL CEILING GAME.

    Then Rowans quote about Raids are more popular on the forums than in game, so spend less time concentrating on raids? But raids were once upon a time FAR MORE POPULAR than now. Currently most of them have obsolete gear, so of course they aren't popular, no ones running them because they don't have stuff that is worth getting.

    But also: DDO used to have an END GAME, a bunch of epics and raids that formed a large pool of replayable content... this kept players busy between updates.... Now we have NOTHING 2 raids and mostly outmoded obsolete gear in the epics... THERE'S NOTHING TO DO BETWEEN UPDATES, so of course people leave in droves, and the game dies a little more every lull.

    I would love to ask Turbine to go back and look at relative player attrition between then and now, I'm guessing that back then a much lower percentage of the player base left the game between updates... Some of that would be because the game was newer, and had less F2P competition, but some of that would also be because there WAS MORE TO DO, and more importantly MORE TO ASPIRE TO DO (i.e. gearing up to be more effective in Amrath, and other hard raids and epics)... DDO presently has in comparison: NOTHING TO ASPIRE TO DO.

    This last expansion barely nudged the bar up, the game is in serious trouble. The combo of meta gaming (everyone knows the quests like the back of their hands) and lack of a highly replayable block of content (like old 20th level end game) combined with stretching a SHRINKING player base out, have the rather predictable result of making it harder to find GROUPS in a grouping centric game. So put most of those old end game epics and raids back to being endgame, (Just buff the loot and the mob CR's, don't revamp) the only other solution is to make 6 or 8 raids and 12 or 15 new "Epics" at level 28 in a short enough period of time that the game doesn't bleed out from attrition. That's 3 or 4 years worth of content... We don't have 3 or 4 years at the present rate of attrition.

    THERE WERE 4 LFM'S LAST NIGHT ON THELANIS the lowest number I've ever seen by 10, outside of the login server being down... The all caps are needed to convey that this game is desperately in need of a new and fundamentally sound direction... or there wont be anyone left playing it in a few months. The start of that new direction needs to be more dialog with the player base, and a better understanding of how DDO is played and why some people don't "catch on" to DDO and leave with exit surveys like "I hate undead they are hard to kill, and I don't raid".

    I would love to see DDO players unite and create a player counsel, the first order of business would be to try and have a dialog with Turbine about the direction of DDO and how the Developers who don't seem to play it on live or understand how it is played by in large (i.e. in PUG's and in situations where players don't know each other or not well), and these player metrics and what they may or may not actually indicate.

    Once last thought: EVE online has complexity, richness, depth, and a strong player base... Don't be afraid of targeting hard core gamers DDO, just start listening and stop chasing WoW.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

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