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  1. #41
    Community Member enochiancub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    I don't suppose it occurs to most of you, but could it possibly be that a sizeable number of gamers don't raid not because of the loot but because they don't wish to be bothered? Rather, some players don't wish to play anything that can't be done solo. My personal impression is that such antisocial gamers as myself are an underestimated but considerable part of the gaming population. You raiding types like to think that you're typical and speak for the rest of us, but Producer Rowan seems to be implying that you're not in fact typical of the DDO audience and I'd like to tip my hat to him (if I had a hat).
    We're all convinced our preferred play style is the only one people are invested in. I hate the idea of dev time being "wasted" on raids, but just because I don't utilize the system doesn't mean others don't find enjoyment and value in it. That said, if that's what a portion of players want, they ought to get it. Just not at the expense of everyone else. It doesn't have to be all or nothing for one subset of the populace.

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  2. #42
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    I don't suppose it occurs to most of you, but could it possibly be that a sizeable number of gamers don't raid not because of the loot but because they don't wish to be bothered? Rather, some players don't wish to play anything that can't be done solo. My personal impression is that such antisocial gamers as myself are an underestimated but considerable part of the gaming population. You raiding types like to think that you're typical and speak for the rest of us, but Producer Rowan seems to be implying that you're not in fact typical of the DDO audience and I'd like to tip my hat to him (if I had a hat).

    Rowan is drawing the wrong conclusions by the lack of raiding in the current game.

  3. #43
    Community Member waryJerry's Avatar
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    Did you mean paying customers or playing customers? If you're suggesting that the free-to-play players are a bunch of freeloading riffraff, you're an idiot. I myself don't have a large wallet but even as a premium player I've sunk my share of cash into this game.

  4. #44
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Well if Turbine's data shows that roughly 100% percent of their revenue comes from players who raid, they'll agree with you!
    It wont, because their own lack of attention to said raids made them obsolete. People are putting the cart before the horse, because in order for the raids to be played alot, there needs to be a reason to play them.

    If they are looking at data from TS, von, titan, DQ, abbot, reaver, vod, hound, shroud data from right now in order to determine that no one runs these, they are right. What they NEED to do is look at the data from those raids when they were endgame. They will then see that those raids were far more frequented.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #45
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Raids see less traffic than other things for one major reason that has not been discussed. You can run a quest as many times a day as you want. You can run a raid only once every three days (assuming you aren't sinking actual money into raid timers). The very fact that they made raid timer skips and put them in the store shows that turbine even sees this. I agree that devs are drawing incorrect conclusions from data. You see, I see them, after having put those in the store, seeing how much they sell and coming to the conclusion that raids are not that popular, when (at least in my version of it) in reality it is more likely that people aren't going to spend actual moneys on something like that, and for the most part will continue running their raids just every 3 days.

    The second reason raids are not run as often as other content, that I see, is that raids are not newbie, casual, inexperienced player freindly. Raids are made more and more to challenge the top teir of players. Now I am not saying that that is true, but that is a common perception among many many players I have met. Since lord of blades came out, have run it a total of five times. You know why? The raid intimidated me. I didn't want to join a group of people who knew they could do the raid and then become known as that one guy who can't pull his weight. Master artificer was the same way, and FoT to a much smaller extent as well. CitW was never that way, but I just don't run it because it sucks beyond all reason.

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  6. #46
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    We're all convinced our preferred play style is the only one people are invested in. I hate the idea of dev time being "wasted" on raids, but just because I don't utilize the system doesn't mean others don't find enjoyment and value in it. That said, if that's what a portion of players want, they ought to get it. Just not at the expense of everyone else. It doesn't have to be all or nothing for one subset of the populace.

    Yes, and in my earlier post I made a suggestion that should satisfy everyone. People want to run in large groups & I believe they should have the ability. Other people may not want to run in large groups so they should not have to pay for raids who will be played by "one subset of the populace".

    It would be a great way for everyone to get what they want. People who want to have the best loot in the game only drop in raids and nowhere else are way more guilty of stepping on their fellow players toes that anything the poster you quote is guilty of.

  7. #47
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    We're all convinced our preferred play style is the only one people are invested in. I hate the idea of dev time being "wasted" on raids, but just because I don't utilize the system doesn't mean others don't find enjoyment and value in it. That said, if that's what a portion of players want, they ought to get it. Just not at the expense of everyone else. It doesn't have to be all or nothing for one subset of the populace.
    This reasoning is what made DDO succeed in the past. Normal hard elite difficulty system allowed for different experience levels of players to play the same game. Having raids and quest content with replay-ability factor kept end gamers and casual players playing the same game. Tossing in epics kept the grinders around, playing the same game as people who could care less about top end loot still played.

    The current trends are making end gamers feel like they have nothing to do. Hopefully the new raid they alluded to will change some of that.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    The second reason raids are not run as often as other content, that I see, is that raids are not newbie, casual, inexperienced player freindly. Raids are made more and more to challenge the top teir of players. Now I am not saying that that is true, but that is a common perception among many many players I have met. Since lord of blades came out, have run it a total of five times. You know why? The raid intimidated me. I didn't want to join a group of people who knew they could do the raid and then become known as that one guy who can't pull his weight. Master artificer was the same way, and FoT to a much smaller extent as well. CitW was never that way, but I just don't run it because it sucks beyond all reason.
    QFT. I have actually begged off a Fall of Truth run because I knew some of the people in the party and knew they do not tolerate failure or piking - and, since it would have been my first time running it (a couple or three months after it came out) I decided I did not want to run it and left the group. I have avoided CiTW for similar reasons: all the horror stories about how many SP pots it takes to even get in one and how much people expect to fail - and I don't want to be the one to cause the failure. The sad thing is that I otherwise consider myself to be a pretty solid player. I may not be the best, but I don't generally do dumb things (ok, except the once where I ran right up to Velah on my monk thereby wrecking the entire raid for everyone else - in my defense, it was my first time running that raid, too).

  9. #49
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    This game has been around for more then 7 years and in that time we received around 13 raids.
    I'm not counting the pre-quest and not counting the explorer zones.
    That's roughly one raid every eight months.

    One, two! One, two! and through and through. The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
    He left it dead, and with its head. He went galumphing back.

  10. #50
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I'm sure you have, but I'll put this out there anyway: please consider the implications and probable causes for why that is.

    Raids get a lot of forum traffic, because they're desired based on a few assumed & traditional premises.

    •Raids drop the best loot.
    This has been a loot principle for as long as I can remember.

    •Social Experience
    We miss our social gatherings but also want to have them in a rewarding environment and most existing raids are not that.

    •Coolness
    Raids usually featured quest design & mechanics that were different from the rest of the game.

    •The Shroud
    Please please please learn from this raid. The quintessential DDO raid for future inspiration.

    We were supposed to get 2 MotU raids, and then EGH. Instead we got 1 MotU raid full of mechanics that irritated the playerbase, and then EGH. That is not an end game raid environment.

    learn from CitW what we don't want.
    Agreed. Good post!

    Challenge:
    Running a raid should be a hefty challenge. Most of the older raids are a joke at cap, and can be easily solo'd.

    Experience..
    Since raids should drop the best loot and be the most challenging, the XP should reflect that.
    There should be NO reason why the hardest content should not give the best XP return.

    When you cannot get ANY xp, decent loot or challenge from a raid because you are overlevel, What is the point of running it?
    Making all the existing raids relevant to end game would be a big incentive to play at cap longer and give people a lot more to do.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Yes, and in my earlier post I made a suggestion that should satisfy everyone. People want to run in large groups & I believe they should have the ability. Other people may not want to run in large groups so they should not have to pay for raids who will be played by "one subset of the populace".

    It would be a great way for everyone to get what they want. People who want to have the best loot in the game only drop in raids and nowhere else are way more guilty of stepping on their fellow players toes that anything the poster you quote is guilty of.
    Exactly this. I do not doubt that raids are being played by a small percentage of players, and I do not doubt it will always be that way. At the same time, I don't care if Turbine designs and releases raids. Whatever.

    But there's a lot of things people in this thread aren't completely thinking through. Surprising, I know.

    1.) Basically, what the majority of people in this thread are saying is that raids aren't worth running unless they give the best loot.

    2.) Basically, what the majority of people in this thread are saying is that new raids can't have better loot than old raids.

    So.... new raids will be released with nothing to grind for (since, I mean, the loot won't be better than the old stuff, and you all already have the old stuff). It doesn't make sense at all as a system. If raiders will only raid because it produces the best loot in the game, and if this loot must always remain the best loot, then why would raiders run new raids, since it can't, by the rules they themselves have designed, contain the best loot. None of it makes any sense.

  12. #52
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    This game has been around for more then 7 years and in that time we received around 13 raids.
    I'm not counting the pre-quest and not counting the explorer zones.
    That's roughly one raid every eight months.
    The first 9 raids were in the first 2 years. After that it tapered off ALOT.

    TS, VON, Titan, DQ, Reaver, Abbot, VOD, Hound, Shroud - all in 2 years. So beginning of 2008 this game had 9 raids.

    Then TOD in 2009, Chrono 2010, LOB and MA 2011, CiTW 2012.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-04-2013 at 01:56 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It wont, because their own lack of attention to said raids made them obsolete. People are putting the cart before the horse, because in order for the raids to be played alot, there needs to be a reason to play them.

    If they are looking at data from TS, von, titan, DQ, abbot, reaver, vod, hound, shroud data from right now in order to determine that no one runs these, they are right. What they NEED to do is look at the data from those raids when they were endgame. They will then see that those raids were far more frequented.
    No one knows whether he looked at the last six months or the last three years when making his statement. And no one but Turbine can know whether old raids were a substantial percentage or just a minority of the playerbase back three years ago. The idea that we can know better than Turbine based on a memory of what lfm panels looked like years ago is farcical, especially if that memory is coming from hardcore endgame players who naturally focused on the part of the lfm that was their primary interest.

    So it's fun to speculate and worthwhile to appeal to Turbine for what we as individual players want to see, but only Turbine has the actual facts on which to base their direction. Claiming they're misreading the facts when we don't even know what the facts actually are is equally farcical.

    I'd like to see Rowan share real numbers on raid usage versus regular quests versus challenges, other than possibly enraging some already dissatisfied segment of the playerbase I can't see what Turbine has to lose in doing so. On the plus side players concerned about the game could make suggestions from a basis of fact rather than speculation. I don't believe any amount of appeal will see that happen though.

  14. #54
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    No one knows whether he looked at the last six months or the last three years when making his statement. And no one but Turbine can know whether old raids were a substantial percentage or just a minority of the playerbase back three years ago. The idea that we can know better than Turbine based on a memory of what lfm panels looked like years ago is farcical, especially if that memory is coming from hardcore endgame players who naturally focused on the part of the lfm that was their primary interest.
    Nope, its coming off the vast playerbase who raided back then, and remember multiple LFMs up each day for each of those raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    So it's fun to speculate and worthwhile to appeal to Turbine for what we as individual players want to see, but only Turbine has the actual facts on which to base their direction. Claiming they're misreading the facts when we don't even know what the facts actually are is equally farcical.
    And those actual facts point to there being alot more people who ran raids when that particular raid was endgame. Misreading what facts. Many of us were there during that time, and most of them were not. Most if not all of the employees who built and tested those first 9 raids in the first 2 years of the game no longer work there. Unless they can datamine attendance numbers that far back, the most accurate data about what we experienced back then is coming from the player base.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    I'd like to see Rowan share real numbers on raid usage versus regular quests versus challenges, other than possibly enraging some already dissatisfied segment of the playerbase I can't see what Turbine has to lose in doing so. On the plus side players concerned about the game could make suggestions from a basis of fact rather than speculation. I don't believe any amount of appeal will see that happen though.
    Exact numbers are not needed in order to understand that people ran raids alot more when the particular raid was endgame. This is fact. If they want to convince us their statements about raid attendance is correct, break out the numbers.

    Are you telling us theres even a remote possibility that people run any of those first 9 raids more now than they did when they were endgame? He is speaking of nowdays, not 2006-2008. There wasnt even TR in the game at the time. What do we think people were doing at cap 10, 12, 14, 16? They dont sell lit2 weapons and torque in the DDO store as of yet, and there was only one way to get them.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-04-2013 at 02:09 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #55
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    I don't suppose it occurs to most of you, but could it possibly be that a sizeable number of gamers don't raid not because of the loot but because they don't wish to be bothered? Rather, some players don't wish to play anything that can't be done solo. My personal impression is that such antisocial gamers as myself are an underestimated but considerable part of the gaming population. You raiding types like to think that you're typical and speak for the rest of us, but Producer Rowan seems to be implying that you're not in fact typical of the DDO audience and I'd like to tip my hat to him (if I had a hat).
    It was not my intention to speak for the entirety of the DDO player base, but rather to speak on behalf of all those who did raid but now don't, and even then I only speak for those like minded to myself. Other people probably have other reasons.

    Anyone who played pre-MotU knows the lfm panel was consistently having raids advertised and filling. Multiple Shrouds posted simultaneously was common. It was a rare day that didn't see a VoD, Hound or ToD being run. Granted, flagging mechanics kept Titan & Abbot restricted to a more eclectic crowd. Of the Epic Raids: VoN, Chronoscope & DQ were consistently run; LoB & Master Artificer were each posted once a week minimum.

    Now, I'll freely qualify my observations by saying I've played exclusively on Thelanis since I first came to DDO, so other servers may have been different; but all of the above observations are just from the lfm panel and don't include all the exclusively guild/channel raid runs.

    Pre-MotU metrics certinly didn't indicate that all players ran raids, but there must've been enough people raiding at one time to suggest a Timer Bypass would make money. Of course, the timer bypass just accelerated the demise of raiding because people got what they wanted in significantly smaller amounts of real world time, and there were only 2 raids offering things people wanted.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  16. #56
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    i have to say, it's good having Chai on the same side is me. It almost feels like I out-source my trolling.

    Carry on.

  17. #57
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    2.) Basically, what the majority of people in this thread are saying is that new raids can't have better loot than old raids.

    So.... new raids will be released with nothing to grind for (since, I mean, the loot won't be better than the old stuff, and you all already have the old stuff). It doesn't make sense at all as a system. If raiders will only raid because it produces the best loot in the game, and if this loot must always remain the best loot, then why would raiders run new raids, since it can't, by the rules they themselves have designed, contain the best loot. None of it makes any sense.
    No.

    Raid loot shouldn't be outclassed though by random gen and guaranteed drop items though. Now if it's a level 10 heroic version compared to epic random gen but heroic to heroic and epic to epic raid loot should win out every single time. Now it mostly doesn't.

  18. #58
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    i have to say, it's good having Chai on the same side is me. It almost feels like I out-source my trolling.

    Carry on.
    Doesn't it make you feel dirty though? I've been agreeing with people I normally argue with in this and the housing threads. Time to hop in the shower again feeling all dirty from all this agreement.

  19. #59
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You are absolutely delusion if you believe the Turbine dev team is unable to read data trends. It is much more likely you're misreading the situation from the limited data you have. It's always better to fit your opinions to reality than try to twist realty to fit your opinions.





    I can't imagine how bad of a player one must be for loot to change them from a piker to awesome.
    And are entirely delusion if you thing that there is no difference between reading trends, and interpreting them correctly.

    (Not to be a jerk, I just wanted to make sure my response fit the theme of delusion...)

  20. #60
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Doesn't it make you feel dirty though? I've been agreeing with people I normally argue with in this and the housing threads. Time to hop in the shower again feeling all dirty from all this agreement.
    nah, I reached the level of dirt saturation a few years ago, right about the same time I built up an immunity to most venereal diseases.

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