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  1. #381
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    No. They would be choosing to focus on one segment of their existing player base where they see higher profits to be had than if they focus on a different segment of their player base. Given $1M to invest, they'd be acting on data that shows they'll have a higher return by investing $750K in products for segment A and $250K in products for segment B than if they invest in reverse.

    It's not about "dumping" segment B; it's about prioritizing segment A over segment B because segment A is where they feel they are best able to increase profits.

    Again, the premise - the actual aggregate sales data they have from all of their paying customers is more important in determining how they should prioritize development than forum threads. That is the premise you evidently disagree with.
    Gaining and maintaining customers in business is difficult. Losing customers is easy. Its very rare when a niche entity can drop their current client base and at the same time retain MORE ($$wise) clients from a market already occupied by giants much larger than their own entity, with more marketing dollars to spend, whose needs are already satisfied by those giants.

    Can you think of an example where this has happened, in a time frame which doesnt require a 5-10 year loss of revenue while the entity is restabilized?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #382
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I play both ends of the spectrum. I play permadeath in regular guild runs as well as multiple static groups. Every single chest we have been opening has had significant loot upgrades, which made opening ALL chests exciting again. I also raid and play endgame EE quests in another non-PD guild, and have seen that scene in particular is most irritated that single pieces of loot that used to trade straight up for ottos boxes, is now obsolete, or at the very least, not top tier.
    Your PD. That explains your stand, thank you. As for the raiding you might be doing, do you really think that segment of the game (which is the segment that will buy the bypass timers you think will sell) will forget that insult so quickly?

    Maybe you do, but you would be very wrong to think so.

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Gaining and maintaining customers in business is difficult. Losing customers is easy. Its very rare when a niche entity can drop their current client base and at the same time retain MORE ($$wise) clients from a market already occupied by giants much larger than their own entity, with more marketing dollars to spend, whose needs are already satisfied by those giants.

    Can you think of an example where this has happened, in a time frame which doesnt require a 5-10 year loss of revenue while the entity is restabilized?
    Why does your pattern of response always involve stating something that was completely not in dispute while not engaging on the actual subject? I mean it can be entertaining, but come on man, focus!

    Not in dispute, or even broached: Gaining and maintaining customers in business is difficult.

    In dispute (evidently, but this is what you're responding to): Turbine is making a rational decision when choosing to focus on one segment of their existing player base where they see higher profits to be had than if they focus on a different segment of their player base. It's about prioritizing segment A over segment B because segment A is where they feel they see the best return on their investment.

    Let me make this absolutely clear before you come back with "Gaining and maintaining customers in business is difficult" again - my point is about existing customers, not about trying to penetrate some other market segment with an entrenched and dominant competitor.

    And again, my premise - the actual aggregate sales data they have from all of their paying customers is much more important in determining how they should prioritize development than forum threads.

  4. #384
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    No. They would be choosing to focus on one segment of their existing player base where they see higher profits to be had than if they focus on a different segment of their player base. Given $1M to invest, they'd be acting on data that shows they'll have a higher return by investing $750K in products for segment A and $250K in products for segment B than if they invest in reverse.

    It's not about "dumping" segment B; it's about prioritizing segment A over segment B because segment A is where they feel they are best able to increase profits.

    Again, the premise - the actual aggregate sales data they have from all of their paying customers is more important in determining how they should prioritize development than forum threads. That is the premise you evidently disagree with.
    well, for a long time now I have said that the focus has been towards casual and new players. that would indicate why any half experienced player can cake walk through elite quests, why ghostbane is in every reward list, why better or on par gear gear can be found anywhere now and not just in raids. DDO has turned into a carnival ride and leaving behind the D&D it once was several years ago, attracting players that enjoy spending for temporary happiness only to complain later that DDO is dying or they are bored. attracting players that enjoy the fluff of pets that do tricks for them and play follow the leader. attracting players that have a sense of entitlement because they spend money. DDO has become a PG game that is closing in on the same level as Dragonica. if the profit gain is for this kind of game and they can accept the net loss of "25%" of players feeling jaded by this direction, than I cant wait to see what happens after the plans follow through after 2015.

  5. #385
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Your PD. That explains your stand, thank you. As for the raiding you might be doing, do you really think that segment of the game (which is the segment that will buy the bypass timers you think will sell) will forget that insult so quickly?

    Maybe you do, but you would be very wrong to think so.
    hmmm pretty sure he said he plays both PD and non PD. I guess you are assuming he is a PD by heart no matter if he plays in a non PD group.

  6. #386
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I dont think Turbine is currently building a new raid only to have the gear it drops be worse than loot gen.
    Yah. That would be grand if they did things that made sense, would be wonderful if they respected the money, time and effort it takes to get raid loot, but unfortunately, they already insulted that segment of the games population with FoT, they go and epic GH, something that has been wanted for a long time, and while it still has that new raid smell, they go and invalidate it's loot with Loot-gen.

    So spare us what you think they would and would not do at this point, that line has been crossed.

  7. #387
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Your PD. That explains your stand, thank you. As for the raiding you might be doing, do you really think that segment of the game (which is the segment that will buy the bypass timers you think will sell) will forget that insult so quickly?

    Maybe you do, but you would be very wrong to think so.
    I actually hope you are correct, and when Turbine releases this raid, no one buys bypass timers in order to acquire their loot faster. Do you think this will be the case? I dont. So basing it on degree, what percentage of folks who used timer bypass heavily will do so again?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #388
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    hmmm pretty sure he said he plays both PD and non PD. I guess you are assuming he is a PD by heart no matter if he plays in a non PD group.
    The truth is, people really only love one style of playing this game, and anyone who continues to play PD is PD at heart.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    well, for a long time now I have said that the focus has been towards casual and new players. that would indicate why any half experienced player can cake walk through elite quests, why ghostbane is in every reward list, why better or on par gear gear can be found anywhere now and not just in raids. DDO has turned into a carnival ride and leaving behind the D&D it once was several years ago, attracting players that enjoy spending for temporary happiness only to complain later that DDO is dying or they are bored. attracting players that enjoy the fluff of pets that do tricks for them and play follow the leader. attracting players that have a sense of entitlement because they spend money. DDO has become a PG game that is closing in on the same level as Dragonica. if the profit gain is for this kind of game and they can accept the net loss of "25%" of players feeling jaded by this direction, than I cant wait to see what happens after the plans follow through after 2015.
    I totally empathize with this. And it's not particularly motivating to me either. But they've been selling pets for quite a time now and they keep selling more. Those players must not be bored yet, on the other hand I keep being told that the raiding whales are so easily bored that they are absent save for a few weeks or less of gorging during "New Loot Season".

    But your observation, it seems reasonable to me, that there is more focus on casual players or at least on players who prefer less challenge and more relaxing game play. Now if that's a reasonable observation, and we believe, or so most of us forumites claim, that Turbine is a profit motivated company and acts accordingly, then there must be a reason for their focus. We can speculate they're just making terrible decisions and incompetently decreasing profitability, or we can speculate they're making sound decisions and increasing profitability. They wont share their sensitive sales data with all us well meaning forumites, so that's where we are.

    And when I say they're wise to base their priorities on the spending habits of their customer base, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to end up agreeing with what those priorities are either. Believe me, I'd rather see more bug and stability fixes than some kind of new "Vecna's Evil XP Eyeball" product for 4995 TP.

  10. #390

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Youre now quoting my posts from DIFFERENT threads, while slicing and dicing posts from THIS thread to strawman my stance in order to have something far weaker than my actual premise to refute.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Again, reading the entire post, none of this is a contradiction. Its only a contradiction when you split it off and use a small portion of the post as the entire statement, and then use that smal section of the entire post in an argument of ABSOLUTE, when analyzing an argument of DEGREE in the first place..
    Last edited by sebastianosmith; 09-06-2013 at 05:46 PM.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  11. #391
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    The truth is, people really only love one style of playing this game, and anyone who continues to play PD is PD at heart.
    This isnt true at all. I can hang with the fastest of zergers, and I have played with other PDers who can do the same. I can appreciate all playstyles. PD is a great break from endgame and poses a challenge in a different fashion than raiding or playing EE quests does.

    The entire reason Ive stayed playing this game all these years is because of the fact that I play multiple styles of play. Im not here for one reason, and do not hinge my play experiene being fun on one aspect of the game.

    The same is true in P&P. I can play in a monte haul campaign on Tuesday, where everyone is min maxing, has all kinds of gear and consumibles. I can then show up to the Saturday game which is low magic, low gear etc, and have the same amount of fun.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #392
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I actually hope you are correct, and when Turbine releases this raid, no one buys bypass timers in order to acquire their loot faster.
    Why?

    Now that I realize were you come from, I don't think you realize how bad that would make the raid look, that even the hard core players would not find it worth buying a bypass timer for. That would be enough bad pub to kill the raid on day one release.

    Do you think this will be the case? I dont. So basing it on degree, what percentage of folks who used timer bypass heavily will do so again?
    I doubt that anyone would risk their real dollars on timers for the new raid, but there would be quite a few that would be glad to trade their abundant in-game wealth for timers.

    I highly doubt that anyone would again risk their real dollars for the loot however. I mean there is always that one sucker, but, beyond that.. I don't see that happening.

    I do see people trading timers for stable in-game wealth however, I don't know what would be considered "stable" at this point, I do know that the loot dropped from the new quests and the raids would not be considered stable, that is for sure, but what would remain stable remains to be seen.

  13. #393
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Why?

    Now that I realize were you come from, I don't think you realize how bad that would make the raid look, that even the hard core players would not find it worth buying a bypass timer for. That would be enough bad pub to kill the raid on day one release.
    Im pretty sure you understand my original stance on all this p2w stuff and how it makes people get bored faster and leave more quickly and for longer periods of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I doubt that anyone would risk their real dollars on timers for the new raid, but there would be quite a few that would be glad to trade their abundant in-game wealth for timers..
    The vast majority of bypass timers come from in game purchases. Yeah a few people have won 1 here and there off the daily dice, but the vast majority are purchased from the store. Those people trading their in game wealth for them are acquiring them from people who bought them from the store.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I highly doubt that anyone would again risk their real dollars for the loot however. I mean there is always that one sucker, but, beyond that.. I don't see that happening.
    Its already happened twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I do see people trading timers for stable in-game wealth however, I don't know what would be considered "stable" at this point, I do know that the loot dropped from the new quests and the raids would not be considered stable, that is for sure, but what would remain stable remains to be seen.
    But the timers were bought off the store (the vast majority of them are) - so anyone trading in game wealth for a timer is likely buying it off someone who bought it from the store with the intention of securing that in game wealth for it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    So, if any of the producers actually does get to this thread, they'll see that we're arguing over chocolate, who contradicted themselves in what post, and how to be the best at trolling. The inevitable conclusion is that we're easily distracted and these forums may be a portal to Xoriat. The inevitable question, where is the cube when you need it?
    Seconded. This thread devolved beyond uselessness several pages ago. I the powers that be would be kind enough to lock or cube it, that would be the only way to improve the quality of the discussion.

    It's a pitiful shame that what started as a player trying to share some insight with the devs about why he enjoys raids, and would like to see more added/old ones revitalized; had to turn into some "game is dying/no it's not" / "my opinion is better than yours" / "without data or proof your thoughts are inferior to my data-less unproven thoughts" / "you suck & your momma dresses you funny" pointless bunch of BS.

    Eff all y'all.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  15. #395
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This isnt true at all. I can hang with the fastest of zergers, and I have played with other PDers who can do the same. I can appreciate all playstyles. PD is a great break from endgame and poses a challenge in a different fashion than raiding or playing EE quests does.

    The entire reason Ive stayed playing this game all these years is because of the fact that I play multiple styles of play. Im not here for one reason, and do not hinge my play experiene being fun on one aspect of the game.

    The same is true in P&P. I can play in a monte haul campaign on Tuesday, where everyone is min maxing, has all kinds of gear and consumibles. I can then show up to the Saturday game which is low magic, low gear etc, and have the same amount of fun.
    I am sorry Chai, but given the nature of your posts, and your posting history. I simply do not believe you.

    I had first thought you were mostly into Alts, like someone who kept trying new builds and ideas, but never made a serious character or saw the double digit levels.. LOL , just the way you talked about things, the way you speak fo the game and the way you portray the different groups you make mention of, I admit, I never really thought about it, but when you mentioned PD, everything clicked on where you stand and why you take the stands you do.

    Nothing wrong with that, it's not a bad thing, we just have different ways to play. I'll respect yours, and I would like it if you could respect mine.

  16. #396
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Why?

    Now that I realize were you come from, I don't think you realize how bad that would make the raid look, that even the hard core players would not find it worth buying a bypass timer for. That would be enough bad pub to kill the raid on day one release.



    I doubt that anyone would risk their real dollars on timers for the new raid, but there would be quite a few that would be glad to trade their abundant in-game wealth for timers.

    I highly doubt that anyone would again risk their real dollars for the loot however. I mean there is always that one sucker, but, beyond that.. I don't see that happening.

    I do see people trading timers for stable in-game wealth however, I don't know what would be considered "stable" at this point, I do know that the loot dropped from the new quests and the raids would not be considered stable, that is for sure, but what would remain stable remains to be seen.
    didn't you just get back from a 6 month break from DDO? you suddenly show up and say "i don't think people will pay for this and that" when you haven't even been here. how can you have a reasonable discussion about something when you don't even realize that raid timers come from the DDO store and that's where most of them come from that you see traded for in game? its like the guy that said you can play the shard market for free by playing the free DD rolls without paying a dime from the store 3 days after P2WAH came into existence.

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Yeah, there's no opportunity to pike in raids. Never seen that happen.
    You were in party with my Bard again, weren't you!?! Damn, I thought no one noticed.



    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    What fun is a game if you are guaranteed to win all of the time. It's like that Twilight Zone episode where the loser thinks he is in Heaven because he gets everything he wants.
    Well, MadFloyd did ask for feedback on difficulty a looong time ago.





    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    So spare us what you think they would and would not do at this point, that line has been crossed.
    The evolution of DDO: Stormreach to Eberron Unlimited to Dungeons & Dragons Online
    -1- -2- -3- -4- -5- -6- -7- -8- -9- years & still spawning kobolds
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  18. #398
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I am sorry Chai, but given the nature of your posts, and your posting history. I simply do not believe you..
    Thats just it, youre disagreeing with me due to past disagreements, rather than analyzing the current situation objectively. At least youre being honest about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I had first thought you were mostly into Alts, like someone who kept trying new builds and ideas, but never made a serious character or saw the double digit levels.. LOL , just the way you talked about things, the way you speak fo the game and the way you portray the different groups you make mention of, I admit, I never really thought about it, but when you mentioned PD, everything clicked on where you stand and why you take the stands you do.

    Nothing wrong with that, it's not a bad thing, we just have different ways to play. I'll respect yours, and I would like it if you could respect mine.
    So in order to disagree with my stance, you have to turn it into a personal discussion about past disagreements and playstyles - peg me as a PDer and only a PDer, regardless of the fact that I also have toons clad in EE gear, raid daily, and run TRs. While I enjoy many different aspects of the game, youre entire analysis of anything I post will be clouded with previous disagreements as well as labeling me a 100% PDer regardless of what is actually said, or the full extent of how I actually do play.

    Got it, please drive through.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #399
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    didn't you just get back from a 6 month break from DDO? you suddenly show up and say "i don't think people will pay for this and that" when you haven't even been here.
    Gee look at that join date, it says, oh right. I have been playing for going on 4 years, I don't think a short break changes that I've been around awhile.

    Or do you believe your own brains would fall out and you would forget everything you knew about the game if you took a 6 month break?

  20. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Or do you believe your own brains would fall out and you would forget everything you knew about the game if you took a 6 month break?
    Yeah, it s like a new game for me too every couple of days! If I don't post on the forums for a couple of days or login into DDO this happens to me.

    Oh, wait ... you didn't mean it like that did you? Ah, don't tell anyone, K?
    The evolution of DDO: Stormreach to Eberron Unlimited to Dungeons & Dragons Online
    -1- -2- -3- -4- -5- -6- -7- -8- -9- years & still spawning kobolds
    Who are the devs anyway? DDO Peeps Tracker


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