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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Complete the analogy - what is the "new coke" for you in the next 12 months of DDO that makes you go elsewhere - Turbine only introduces one new p2p raid, some kind of f2p epic TR system, three updates with 10-12 new p2p adventures, and starts hyping their next "expansion"? That's not an unlikely scenario given past performance, let's say at least if they don't fold up Jan 1 2014 and spin down.

    What is "not new coke" for you that makes you stay? Two raids in the next 12 months? Three raids? Does anything else matter but the number of raids?
    For me, game direction is the "New Coke." Lack of end game content coupled with a focus on TRing. Eventually, TRing gets done (why do I want 2 or 3 monk past lives on my Wiz?) and my character has all it's destinies. What does that leave? The pursuit of gear, and the seeking of challenges suitable to the maximum level of attainable power, ie "end game." If the point is to TR endlessly, until there's nothing more to be gained by TRing, just to find out there's nothing for my character to do now, then what's the point of building it?

    WARNING: CAR ANALOGY AHAEAD
    Some people build hot rods so they can have a cool collection of things to look at living in their garage. Not me. I build them because they're fun to drive. If I can't take it out for a spin, or better yet race one whenever I'm not building another, then I consider it a pointless waste and look for a new hobby (game).
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There needs to be a point to the game besides running in a hamster wheel. There needs to be a real means of character advancement beside mindlessly grinding quests we've done a zillion times.

    There needs to be a point to all of this.

    Raids are part of the means to that end.
    Oh I agree, my question is sincere though... if Turbine is to believed they are working on another raid. If toxic New Coke for someone is one raid in the next 12 months, then the tasty not New Coke must be something more than just one raid. So how many does he need to stick around? And if he gets that many does it matter what else Turbine does? Or maybe one is enough if the raid is of sufficient quality?

    Turbine obviously failed to satisfy with CitW and FoT. They may also be gun shy about again investing resources into something they have a track record of failure in. Even the raids that were evidently successful once are now failures of the time as the game has moved on. If they're the money hungry raid bypass pimps they're made out to be they should be coughing up a one room FoT/VoD/HoX look alike every two months like clockwork so the raiding whales float over and gorge on bypassers, but they aren't. Instead they pump out pets and boxes on a fairly regular basis. I'm not saying that's right. But if they're acting based on their own financial interests then what do they know about actual player habits that we don't?

  3. #183
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    What is "not new coke" for you that makes you stay?
    In a word: Respect.

    I would elaborate, but that is the problem, either Turbine can figure out how to respect their players, or they can't. If they can't, then they deserve to fold up and die.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Content can still be designed to be challenging. I reject that gear makes that much difference in challenge. In a game with static dungeons, quest memorization is key to over coming challenges, not gear.
    He's saying gear matters as a carrot, not that it matters to have it to complete raids. Come on man, of the "all is fin" crowd you strike me as the most reasonable, surely you understand that loot as an incentive reward is very big as a factor in what content gets re-played the most?

    There's a reason epic VON's fill faster than anything else still, Shrouds still pop up, and the odd Rogue pops an LFM up for the House D epics that have Epic Midnight Greetings. Some gear is still sought after. Most isn't most of it is ignored.

    Revamp old epics and raids to be Level 28, with loot polish to make the "carrots" desirable again, give people some reason to play them again. Give people who want an "end game" something do do at level 28

    I used to be against "endgame" then over time I did everything there was to do at lower levels and now I see the attraction... there's litterally no reason to level to 28 without some content there that's challenging and also offers slow gear advancement.

    TO give this some human element, I literally just rolled up a "Sword of Shadows" build, that wont be complete until I get it for him... That's how bad end game is, I needed to make a build specifically for a uber grind weapon that next to never drops (I've literally never seen any single eSoS or the base sword pop in a chest, nor a single scroll). Because leveling to 28 and wondering what to do in the "new endgame" is not an option.
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-04-2013 at 08:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    In a word: Respect.

    I would elaborate, but that is the problem, either Turbine can figure out how to respect their players, or they can't. If they can't, then they deserve to fold up and die.
    I can empathize with this. Too many decisions made with little or no consideration to customer impact. Or at least that is how it seems on the receiving end. And then not enough follow up on fixing what gets broken. So I am totally on board with viewing it as a lack of customer care.

    Now is it willful disrespect, a product of poor execution and management, or is it the product of a skeleton crew under WB's thumbs that already know the end is nigh and that no help is coming, who are trying to do anything else new and interesting before the plug is pulled because in the year or so that's left, fixing bugs just isn't going to matter. I could go either way.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Yes, I do understand that. That's exactly why I say raids are stupid. I have nothing against the playstyle. I have nothing against people wanting to play with 12 players. I want everyone to have fun. Dungeons should simply not be labeled as "raid" or "quest". Just make them all able to have 1-12 people and scale accordingly.

    There's no need to distinguish dungeons (raid vs quest) if they are created properly.

    What I am against is people suggesting other people get hounded into these situations if they don't like the play style. People have said it right here again and again that the raids are empty because of the loot. People say the raids used to get run. Yeah, when greeensteel was head and shoulders above anything else you could get in the game.

    So people come here saying they should make super mega loot so people will run raids. I say no. That's not the answer. I'm not here to rob people of their playstye. I'm making a suggestion that could accommodate both styles while simultaneously INCREASING the number of dungeons people could run with 12 people.

    As things are, an adventure pack usually has around 5 dungeons. This may include 4 "quests" and 1 "raid". I would think the people who like the raiding would absolutely drool over the thought of each and every dungeon being capable of handling (& challenging) a 12 member party.

    The people who like to raid seem to be saying they want the best of the best treasure in game just for them. Why do you suppose that is?
    When GS was king, people still ran every other raid in the game too, because they all dropped relevant loot. As for your 1-12 man quest theory, it doesn't work. What kind of dungeon alert mess would be created cramming 12 people into Devils Assault. Ever tried to solo Titan, the Abbot, or an at level Shroud? There aredifferences in how you design a quest for ~12 players instead of 1-6, especially in an ever more solo friendly game.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    It was a small assumption on my part. But if you read between the lines, they're saying if it was financially viable, there'd be more. Whether or not people talk about them or whatnot doesn't matter. If only one percent of the population ran them and they were financially viable, Turbine would design them, and would release them at a very fast rate.
    This actually could be pointing to something I haven't seen brought up.

    It would seem to me that developing a raid for a game with 1 million player would cost as much as for a game with 50k. If that's the case and only X% of players raid, it could be very profitable to do so in the first case and not cost effective in the second. This could lead to them sticking to developing content that a high percentage of the remaining player base would use for it to be profitable.

    Whether this sort of thinking works, or if not continuing to develop raids causes players to lose faith in the game's future would still be in question though.

  8. #188
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    When GS was king, people still ran every other raid in the game too, because they all dropped relevant loot. As for your 1-12 man quest theory, it doesn't work. What kind of dungeon alert mess would be created cramming 12 people into Devils Assault. Ever tried to solo Titan, the Abbot, or an at level Shroud? There aredifferences in how you design a quest for ~12 players instead of 1-6, especially in an ever more solo friendly game.
    I'm not talking about old dungeons. I'm talking about how this game could move into the future. Heck, Devil assault isn't much different than demon queen.

    Titan, shroud, abbot? They were made to essentially lock out soloer's/small groups. I'm saying if they developers are clever it can be done. Heck, certain mechanics could kick in if there are 12 people that otherwise don't kick in if there are 6. Use some imagination.

  9. #189
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    I'm not talking about old dungeons. I'm talking about how this game could move into the future. Heck, Devil assault isn't much different than demon queen.

    Titan, shroud, abbot? They were made to essentially lock out soloer's/small groups. I'm saying if they developers are clever it can be done. Heck, certain mechanics could kick in if there are 12 people that otherwise don't kick in if there are 6. Use some imagination.
    Make a big boss with an attack that deals 6000 damage non-evadable untyped damage, split over an enlarged AOE. So with 12 people, each would take 500 damage, easily survivable. But it prevents small groups.

    Make a boss with multiple attacks that have tells, similar to the LOB. That was a very innovative and fun raid, it's such a shame the Devs abandoned the loot so quickly.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    or is it the product of a skeleton crew under WB's thumbs that already know the end is nigh and that no help is coming, who are trying to do anything else new and interesting before the plug is pulled because in the year or so that's left, fixing bugs just isn't going to matter. I could go either way.
    I'm starting to wonder this myself, the expansion pack was hastily announced, hastily pushed out, with a few trinkets and two normal updates worth of content... The enhancement pass wasn't a part of it, but then it was, They couldn't even tell people what they were buying. It was not hyped in the media, there were no advertizements and the day it launched none of the biggest game media sites I read had so much as a mention of it... while the same sites regularly mention indie games, patch releases for obscure games, korean MMO's etc. The first anniversary of GW2 etc. etc.

    I know this will offend some people and remember I've been accused more than a few times of being a "fanboy" but the whole thing really has an air of unprepared short sighted desperation to it. Especially expanding the cap so soon.

    When a expansion pack can't raise traffic to within even 5000 logins of a revamped pack that most of us have played already many times, then something went wrong.

    Producer Rowan has been refreshingly candid and shoot from the hip with us... I wonder how he would classify the expansion pack in terms of sucess/dud.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  11. #191
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Make a big boss with an attack that deals 6000 damage non-evadable untyped damage, split over an enlarged AOE. So with 12 people, each would take 500 damage, easily survivable. But it prevents small groups.

    Make a boss with multiple attacks that have tells, similar to the LOB. That was a very innovative and fun raid, it's such a shame the Devs abandoned the loot so quickly.
    Well, that's easily solved. Make it do 3000 damage when 6 people are in there. I'm not sure I get your point??

    For those of you who point out that there's a population decline after the intro of MOTU. MOTU introduced much more than a raid. It introduced Forgotten Realms, the Underdark, & several dungeons.

    Have you considered the possibility that people left because they may have joined, found DDO too difficult to solo, then never came back? Maybe they didn't make it to the Underdark. Maybe they got stuck at Gwylan's trying to level to 8 so they could use their stone to get to the realms? I have no idea, but I don't see comparing MOTU to any other time a good comparison. MOTU was its own unique event & I've not seen log in numbers more than a month or two prior to its release.

    For the record I'm not an "all is well" sort of person. If the game is declining I'd like to see it re-vitalized. I'm just reading lots of people stating they know exactly why but are strongly biased by the way they play rather than looking at more avenues to make the game better in general.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    There is no irreconcilable difference between raids and other content other than raids are intended for 12 players if run at level.
    This is false.

    differences:
    quest-hirelings, cakes, other store items
    raid-no hirelings, no cakes, only certain other store items

    Due to this, raids require additional people for completion by those who are not the most uber-l33t players. For that reason raids are far less new player friendly than quests. (in the most general terms anyway)
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 09-04-2013 at 09:16 PM.
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    It was called "New Coke." In focus groups, 60% approved of the new formula. They didn't realize the other 40% would go elsewhere, and it was the first time in history that Pepsi pulled ahead in market share. DDO ain't Coca-Cola, and likely won't bounce back by introducing "DDO Classic."

    In other words, appeasing one segment of your custome base -even if it's the larger segment- at the expense of the other segment can be (and historically has been) detrimental to financial health.
    ^this is an excellent way of stating it. I've used the old greed moral (dropping what you have to try and grab what you don't have only to miss and end up with nothing)... But I like the new coke analogy.

    These are the facts:
    DDO is shrinking
    The last "pack" had no raid and was half as popular in terms of player activity (15k to 30k) as MOTU which had a raid.
    eGH had a raid and even though it was old content that has mostly already been played it spurred about 5000 more daily logins than Shadowfell peak to peak.
    Turbine has the metrics and they have presumably been making choices based on them, yet the game has suffered a near 50% reduction in activity WITHIN A YEAR of MOTU. (So perhaps the direction they chose is not the best or was a mistake?)

    People were talking about how fast things died down with eGH a few short weeks later... Shadowfell barely made a blip on the radar, there hasn't been a big peak to die down Whats more amazing it that the "All is fine" crowd are citing the rather underwhelming bump in activity of Shadowfell as an "upward trend" which is some of the most amazing straw grasping I've ever witnessed on the internet, turning a clearly disappointing expansion pack related increase in activity into an "upward trend" is some serious intellectual gymnastics. I go back to Usenet news groups and 9600 baud bulletin boards, I've seen a lot, it doesn't get much worse than that. Sad fact is I honestly wish that person was right and I turned out to be wrong. I like DDO a lot, but it's getting pathetic to try and play it at anything but peak hours or within a guild.

    I solo'ed Delera's last night. I don't do solo in MMO's... it sucked, it felt like playing baseball by yourself when everyone else had to go home. I stopped when I realized I would need a hire to stand on the rune to open the under water gates in part 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  14. #194
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    This is false.

    differences:
    quest-hirelings, cakes, other store items
    raid-no hirelings, no cakes, only certain other store items

    Due to this, raids require additional people for completion by those who are not the most uber-l33t players. For that reason raids are far less new player friendly than quests. (in the most general terms anyway)
    All of these specifics can be generalized to increased difficulty/challenge, which could be implimented into endgame content without raids. And, you would not exclude a source of revenue for the company (i.e., the in-store items)

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Once last thought: EVE online has complexity, richness, depth, and a strong player base... Don't be afraid of targeting hard core gamers DDO, just start listening and stop chasing WoW.
    Devs and whatnot will never listen to their playerbase, they have producers that see wow profits and enforce their devs make brutal decisions that disappoint their current players and why we stayed here instead of WoW. It turns good games into bad games, and devs with good ideas incorporating bad ideas.

    The people calling the shots have $$ in their eyes rather than indifference and integrity; just look at 90% of the games out there, mostly the same bad decisions being made from game to game.

    The $ isn't where the more skilled and back-boned players are, it's softer casuals that will play anything because they work, have money to spend, and are easier to please. Games in 5-10 more years will be a care-bear nightmare, and I'm glad I lived in the era of Everquest Vanilla.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I solo'ed Delera's last night. I don't do solo in MMO's... it sucked, it felt like playing baseball by yourself when everyone else had to go home. I stopped when I realized I would need a hire to stand on the rune to open the under water gates in part 2.

    That doesn't mean nobody else went into Delera's last night. It just means nobody wanted to go in with you. Some people out there are swimming laps instead of playing base ball. They aren't looking for groups. They just want to swim. If they have to share the lane it crimps their swimming.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    I'd also like to chime in on another reason that the Older raids aren't run anymore...

    "Epic Raid Tokens" getting renamed to "Greater Tokens of the Twelve" instead of "We don't want these used anymore". Heroic Commendations vs Raid Tokens is a silly distinction, a bad schism, and invalidated good content. Personally, it left me doing a Cost:Benefit analysis and coming to the conclusion that I'll burn out raiding CitW (with its horrid drop rate) and FoT before getting the 25 Commendations to upgrade the weapons and 15 for dragonscale armor. 40 Comms per character is a lot. Turbine apparently lacks the long term direction to not obsolete them before I'm 80% of the way there at my own pace... so, I'm not going to bother.

    Back before MotU, I raided a lot. A lot of Shroud's, and Reaver's, and Chrono's... I didn't do the Epic thing (Your DPS must be this good to ride this ride. All alternative methods of play have been invalidated).
    Now, I TR. Let's hope that Update 20 doesn't kill that experience for me as well. (But that's off-topic)

    On this point, I also have to add that the favour requirement is another detrimental factor. I'd love to upgrade some of the gear I've found, but I know that I'm not strong enough for anything but piking EE motu, so what chance do I ever have of gaining the favour? The devs have basically said, if you're not EE capable, kiss the loot goodbye. That blows.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    no amount of anecdotal stories about friends leaving or beard stroking about how you remember lfm panels in 2010 like it was yesterday will curry much attention by Turbine decision makers.
    Beard stroking? My memory isn't all that hot, but I CLEARLY remember picking from any of 3 Shrouds up at 3a.m., or 2 ToDs, or 1 of each of a VoD, HoX, Titan, et.al. ... all in the wee hours of the morning, my usual play time. So yeah, it's anecdotal, but it ain't beard stroking. It's a fact.

    Now, I stopped reading at post 78. But I agree with just about everything the pro-raiders have said. I think the anti-raiders may be blind to some basic truths about what DDO is and how its playerbase spends its time.

    That said, there ARE other ways to resurrect end-game. Think Skirmishes. Think persistent instance Sieges or Campaigns. The mmo market is rife with examples of how to flesh out end game time sink. I'd LOVE it if we had more choices in how to spend our at-cap time besides grinding EDxp or hunting low drop rate comms... Think MORE DRAGONS.

  18. #198
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soloist12 View Post
    The $ isn't where the more skilled and back-boned players are, it's softer casuals that will play anything because they work, have money to spend, and are easier to please. Games in 5-10 more years will be a care-bear nightmare, and I'm glad I lived in the era of Everquest Vanilla.
    This is a sad truth. Gaming becoming a mainstream hobby was ironically the worst thing that happened to it. Once it became a big business and game companies were no longer struggling to get by, capitalism took over and the coders were forced to stop developing games THEY, as gamers, would want to play and instead develop games with profit margins being the most important factor.

    This leads down the road of dumbing-down games for "mainstream" casual gamers, ending games with cliffhangers and expecting you to buy DLCs to get the conclusion, games that focus on multiplayer and neglect single player, and worst of all unrealistic development deadlines that result in half-finished products full of bugs being pushed out.
    Last edited by djl; 09-04-2013 at 11:23 PM.

  19. #199
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    All of these specifics can be generalized to increased difficulty/challenge, which could be implimented into endgame content without raids. And, you would not exclude a source of revenue for the company (i.e., the in-store items)
    I know this, and don't necessarily disagree. I was simply showing that you're statement about no differences between raids and quests was wrong. I dislike false information being used to make a case, especially when one could easily be made without the false info.

    There is a difference between raids and quests currently other than the twelve versus six man limit. Several other things other than party size would have to be changed to allow what you suggest. The more things you have to change to implement it, the more complex it gets. It would not be a simple thing at all.

    It would be a nice change though, but I have little to no faith that our current devs could alter the game to the point of allowing that without breaking it beyond repair.
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  20. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    My inner spiteful-jerk (okay, it's about 90% of my personality) hopes Turbine screws up TR so much I can laugh at the TRers who think all is fine with the current end-game.
    Hey now, don’t kill my fun! Most TRers are TRing because they know how screwed up end-game is!
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • One loot system to rule them all. (Including Cannith Crafting, and Named Loot.)
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Adjusting Challenge XP so that they're worth running more than once.

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