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  1. #41
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Rev09 View Post
    My issue with True Seeing is that you can get it at level 10 (Voice from Delera's and Mantle from Threnal), and anyone can get those items, so you've effectively negated any and all secret doors over that level. What's the point of playing a trapper above that level if you're not needed? Something needed to be done, and while I can't say this one is perfect, it is something.
    The first part of your argument is ok. And goes along with why the devs felt the need for a change.

    But the second part always bothers me.

    This idea that Rogues should be needed, because no one else should have any ability to overcome obstacles like traps, secret doors. locks...etc.

    I am not for making any class needed.

    Last thing I want is to have to hold the last slot of my group for a Rogue. (or to turn away a Rogue cause we already have one... think about that for awhile....)

    I do not want to sit around all day waiting for some specific class before I can go run a dungeon.





    Also, a large number of people want to be able to solo this game.
    Telling them that they cannot solo because they are not playing a certain class isn't what I want either.

    nor is telling them to suffer through xyz because only some other class can deal with that.


    There should be options.

    Magic gear for instance.





    Rogues should be played for fun... for versatility.
    They can trap, sneak, bluff, UMD.... kill kill kill!!!
    They are not suppose to be the only trapper.. the only sneaker.... the only killer...



    I do not know the best answer, but one answer is multiple paths to completion of quests.

    One to fight through, one to avoid fighting by finding a secret door.. or disabling a deadly trap.

    Hey, we have a Rogue... cool.. we don't have to fight those guys.
    Not sorry guys we cannot do this quest because we don't have a Rogue.

    (and seriously, do you Rogue players really want to be declined by groups because you are only a trapper and they already have one trapper in the group?)
    (Don't be a one trick pony and you will never worry about someone stepping on your toes.)





    Edit: kinda funny that I play a Rgr/Rog and often group with an Artificer friend. Unlike most PUGs where people rush to be the first to disable a trap, we often stand around waiting for the other guy to do the trap because neither one of us enjoys disabling traps much.
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 09-04-2013 at 11:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  2. #42
    Community Member tharveysinjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Rev09 View Post
    An excellent point that was not missed. I see finding secrets an important skill of the thief, maybe not as important as picking locks, disarming traps, backstabbing, but right up there.
    I have not argued that rogues and artificers, or anyone with the sufficient search skill should not be able to find secret doors. I did postualte two notions:
    1. Finding secret doors is not the only thing that makes "trappers" useful.
    2. It does not help to change spell effects so that they no longer mirror their stated purpose.
    Treachery wears many masks, but none so treacherous as the mask of virtue.

  3. #43
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    I just TR'd again after spending the month+ getting all my EDs to level 5 and 40 shrouds for cleansers. 11th life since I started playing around Christmas 2012. Besides posion giving me a sweet surprise in Redfang, by sweet I mean 80 damage on E. I found my Detect Secret Door goggles with dc 20 can't find any thing remotely resembling a door.

    What the hell are the DCs in Depths chain/STK now?
    Last edited by Rubbinns; 09-04-2013 at 12:10 PM.

  4. #44
    Intergalactic Space Crusader Livmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    This to me is like the introduction of poison and such in MOTU. Very little that benefits the player and just meant to add another layer of silly to the enemy critters.

    BTW, as a sidenote. The last quest in Deleras is now borked. Now poison does damage and there are several poison traps in there as there are in other quests. But most of those do not have a trap device. They were traditionally meant to smack you with stat damage.

    But now they kill you with no recourse for none evasion toons to avoid damage and no way for rouges or artis to turn them off.
    I don't know if it's borked or not, but it was funny to see a L15 Sun Elf Cleric get toasted on the poison trap last night. None of us expected that and I'm an L14 artie with high search and could not find a trap box for it. However, the first trap box was easier to find than I remeber. We're running for Voices last night and we all got a good chuckle form poison trap death.

    On my side note, I'm a pure arty with no evasion. For some reason I was the only person that did not set off the poison trap without a trap box (or at least I coould not find). I found that odd as usually if I can spot or search it I find the trap with my face

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Livmo View Post
    I don't know if it's borked or not, but it was funny to see a L15 Sun Elf Cleric get toasted on the poison trap last night. None of us expected that and I'm an L14 artie with high search and could not find a trap box for it. However, the first trap box was easier to find than I remeber. We're running for Voices last night and we all got a good chuckle form poison trap death.

    On my side note, I'm a pure arty with no evasion. For some reason I was the only person that did not set off the poison trap without a trap box (or at least I coould not find). I found that odd as usually if I can spot or search it I find the trap with my face
    Most of the pure poison traps come without a trap box. It was designed like that in several quests since you technically didn't die (that was before). So an unintended consequence of changes like these is that you now will kill scores of players with no recourse to actually do something about it.

    No traps to turn off, just try to time it or/and die. It's a terrible silly thing to do. But that's what happens when people don't think ahead of changes.

    Now imagine this change. Do we honestly think Turbine have checked through all their quests to make sure all the hidden doors are truly optional and won't stop anyone without search from completing the quest?

    Like claw; is the intended consequence that the player should run a gauntlet of blow torches because they can't find a secret passage?

    Changes like these are loathsome since they're lazy. It's to take the path of least resistance. Instead of being creative it's simply mechanics, none which change the purpose of secret passages. Imagine how awestruck I am now when my pure fighter have to take the blow torch rout on Elite.

  6. #46
    Intergalactic Space Crusader Livmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Most of the pure poison traps come without a trap box. It was designed like that in several quests since you technically didn't die (that was before). So an unintended consequence of changes like these is that you now will kill scores of players with no recourse to actually do something about it.

    No traps to turn off, just try to time it or/and die. It's a terrible silly thing to do. But that's what happens when people don't think ahead of changes.
    Aha! Good to know the poison ones have no box. Eeek, they're are more poison traps in the game!

    I raised the cleric on the other other side with a scroll. Too funny the L15 Iconic Cleric was the only one to die on the poison trap. Maybe I will send him some yellow poison resist augments, so he can better navigate the other poison traps. Since he was farming a Voice with us, I figure he might not have much poison resist gear. We run together with other toons somttimes, so I know he did pure Iconic Cleric.

  7. #47
    Community Member visibleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    A divination spell casted by a spellcasted should be as effective as the skill of a rogue. Spells are the job of a spellcaster, and they should be good. I'm tired of all nerfs to the magic.
    So why not just do away with rogues completely?

    In fact, lets just make the game Wizards - the Gathering.

    Oh wait, then you'll just moan about all the SP pots you have to use because of all the Secret doors you have to find.

    This is how the Find Traps spell works:
    Grants the caster the ability to find traps much like a skilled Rogue. The caster gains an insight bonus of caster level/2 to the Search Skill.
    Detect Secret Doors should be exactly the same.
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by visibleman View Post
    So why not just do away with rogues completely?

    In fact, lets just make the game Wizards - the Gathering.

    Oh wait, then you'll just moan about all the SP pots you have to use because of all the Secret doors you have to find.

    This is how the Find Traps spell works:


    Detect Secret Doors should be exactly the same.
    Divines can't undo trap boxes.

    Why would finding and searching for something be so darn special?

  9. #49
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Secret doors were never meant to be all that secret. This change is just another example of developer nerfing because they lack the skill necessary to design content based around the rules and so take the incompetent route of changing the rules to meet their story needs.
    This.
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  10. #50
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    "Trappers" that want to find doors with skills could always do that, we're not talking about taking anything away from them. But suddenly the rest of us have another skill tax or we'll have to miss out on a lot of content we paid for back then with the understanding of what was included.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  11. #51
    Community Member tharveysinjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visibleman View Post
    So why not just do away with rogues completely?
    Why do people jump to this conclusion? No one is asking that this be done. Rogues can also, and thankfully so, find and disable traps, scout rooms and passages, dish-out some good DPS, etc.

    In accordance with D&D 3.5, the spell Detect Secret Doors ought to be able to find secret doors that have been specifically constructed to escape detection. Additionally, True Seeing should ". . .confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic . . ."
    Treachery wears many masks, but none so treacherous as the mask of virtue.

  12. #52
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Divines can't undo trap boxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by tharveysinjin View Post
    Even the Clerical spell, Find Traps only allowed the cleric to find non-magical traps that has no more than a DC of 20.

    While I agree the Find Traps spell on a pure Divine is useless, any splash trapper divine benefits from the spell.
    the DC 20 limit only applies to non-trapper classes/splashes.

    My Cleric17/Rogue/2/Monk1 trapper build does just fine.

    IMHO a lot of the higher level traps were too easy.
    Most rogues will need to not dump Int and invest skills and have some gear.
    Except acrobats.. they got screwed... they should of had some sort of trap line in their tree or a tier 4 option to use Dex for trap skills... something....
    Last edited by JOTMON; 09-06-2013 at 09:15 AM.
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
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  13. #53
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Default As has been said, some doors are just bugged.

    I'm just going to reference EH Army of Shadow since it's the only one of the allegedly bugged door quests I've run, but it's definitely just broken. It's strangely arrogant to bug report these since the answer could just be that the DC is higher, but I'm increasingly sure there's a problem.

    In there, on EH, my Search of 96 (including Wolfinson's Monocle for +5 Enhanced Search, a +20 Item, and +6 Exc Int Skills from Dragontouched Eldritch Rune) wasn't enough on my int base half-elf.

    True max search would be at least 10 above that (ESF: Search, SF: Search, more trashy enhancements, drow).

    But it's close enough that nothing that isn't truly a 'trap rogue' to an absurd degree of gimpage would be able to find those doors if it's just a higher skill check required issue.

    And this was EH. I shudder to think what EE's DC is if the doors are not simply bugged.


    Anyway, my issue is that we can't know which doors are bugged and which aren't.

    Maybe Reign of Madness is bugged too. The community just don't have the information required to bug report this. "I'm a pretty good rogue but I couldn't find this door" is a poor foundation for developer action.

    I propose no solutions but will continue to gripe and incrementally fight the good fight against the secret door in Army of Shadow. Need to find a bard for that skills song maybe.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    What I find baffling is that they didn't need to change hardly anything to do what they wanted, other than making switches and levers able to be hidden.

    Then, someone with an adequate search score could find a lever, pull it, and open up a passageway. They didn't need the doors to be detectable by spells at all--they needed to make walls that moved aside when hidden levers were pulled.

    In that way, they could leave previous dungeons completely alone, while utilizing the new mechanic whenever they wish going forward.

    I have a job, devs, but I'd love to work with you guys.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    What I find baffling is that they didn't need to change hardly anything to do what they wanted, other than making switches and levers able to be hidden.

    Then, someone with an adequate search score could find a lever, pull it, and open up a passageway. They didn't need the doors to be detectable by spells at all--they needed to make walls that moved aside when hidden levers were pulled.

    In that way, they could leave previous dungeons completely alone, while utilizing the new mechanic whenever they wish going forward.

    I have a job, devs, but I'd love to work with you guys.
    ^ This. In the Lamannia server, I went through at least two dozen ways that the hidden door could have been used in the game by using the mechanics already established in the game without recoding the game. The Devs could have used a combination of those two dozen ways to make HUNDREDS of different ways of hiding doors.

    As Certon said, making levers and switches of some of the hidden doors (or preferrably hidden doors in future quests) untargetable with Q or TAB would accomplish everything they wanted. And it's not like they haven't done this already with stuff in the game. You can't target most breakables in post-MOTU quests. The new Wilderness "explorers" cannot be targeted either--and if you're flying blind in a refreshed wilderness, you don't know if you already have that explorer until you click it again.

  16. #56
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    IMHO a lot of the higher level traps were too easy.
    Too d@rn right!

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Most rogues will need to not dump Int and invest skills and have some gear.
    And about time too!

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Except acrobats.. they got screwed... they should of had an option to use Dex for trap skills
    Would be Fan Tas Tic except we're talking about Search NOT Disable!

    I somehow can't see Turbine allowing us to use Dex for Search.


    The Issue is that...

    Disable Device + Search = Int
    Open Lock = Dex
    Spot = Wis
    Con is a Must for Everyone regardless
    UMD & Bluff = Charisma
    Str USED to = Dmg!

    So the Devs have helped us by making Str less of a requirement - Yay!

    BUT

    Rogues {And Artis} are STILL Multi-Attribute Dependent to the point of Insanity!


    -Move Disable to Dex - Put Tier I Enhancement in Rogue Mech AND Battle Engineer to use Int instead.
    -Move Search to Wisdom - 2nd Rank in Said Tier 1 Mech/BE Enhancement to use Int Instead.
    -3rd Rank in Said Tier 1 Mech/BE Enhancement allows Int to Spot.

    -Acrobats on the other hand would have improved Synergy with Monk/Clonk.

    -Oh and Move Trapmaking/Grenade Skills higher up the Mech Tree please so we can bring Rogue Skill Boost down to Tier 1.

    -Also - Really Irritated at Dog Benefits being placed High Up in the Arcanotech Tree - My Battle Engineer does NOT want Spell Benefits But He DOES want Dog Buffs!


    In Essence:
    - Basic Abilities of Rogues = Finding and Disabling Traps.
    - Advanced Abilities of Rogues = Making Traps/Grenades to use against Others.

    Reduce Requirements for the BASIC Abilities.
    Move ADVANCED Abilities HIGHER up the Tree.

    -Basic Abilities of Artificers = Building their Metal Mutt
    -Advanced Abilities of Artificers = Spell Dmg/DCs etc.

    Reduce Requirements for the BASIC Abilities.
    Move ADVANCED Abilities HIGHER up the Tree.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    i know i ll receive beating, but iomho this change is for good. good trapper has meaning again. if ur rogues have problém finding doors, they re not simply good enough same waz as some caster srent able beat saves of monsters. it takes effort to be good at something.
    This is BS. It might be a valid point in theory, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in game. Running Acute Delirium my Wizard-Rogue was unable to find the secret door with 22 ranks +13 INT mod +15 search item +1 Artificer PL +1 MotU mask. Granted, my Wizard could have gotten that higher. But to say that it is reasonable for a level 19 Rogue to have a higher search than 52 at level 19 is absolutely ridiculous.

    Something is very obviously wrong here. And given some of the dev statements about not having raised the mid-level DCs, I am willing to bet that it is not entirely intentional. Just another broken Turbine system.
    Last edited by RedHost; 09-06-2013 at 03:41 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    Secret doors were never meant to be all that secret. This change is just another example of developer nerfing because they lack the skill necessary to design content based around the rules and so take the incompetent route of changing the rules to meet their story needs.
    This really is dead on. There is no purpose to creating content, and then locking all but a very small subset of players out of it. That is very poor design. Good design, which we had before this change, would be to make a barrier to accessing content with reasonably achievable methods to do so. This way, unprepared players find the barrier (no matter if it is a secret door, a stat rune, or a particularly deadly trap) and realize that they will have to find another way to solve the problem of getting around it. But players who have prepared well see that preparation pay off.

    This is a mistake that a lot of inexperienced DMs make in PnP games. They feel like their role is to craft encounters that the players can not handle. Really, they should be creating encounters that challenge the players, but there is still some means of overcoming. A secret door that requires gear (no matter if it is True Seeing or a DSD clicky) is an encounter that a player is able to overcome. A secret door that requires more skill points than most characters can actually acquire, even with the best available items to boost them, is one of those bad design elements that they can not overcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by old-school View Post
    This change to detect secrete doors has been unpopular from the beginning but they did it anyway (SOP). If bug reports are all they pay attention to, then we should give them all the bug reports they can handle. If that doesn't work then we will all know, once and for all, where we stand.
    The fact that the in-game bug report tool has been down for so very long kind of shows how much they really care about bug reports.

  19. #59
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    This is BS. It might be a valid point in theory, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in game. Running Acute Delirium my Wizard-Rogue was unable to find the secret door with 22 ranks +13 INT mod +15 search item +1 Artificer PL +1 MotU mask. Granted, my Wizard could have gotten that higher. But to say that it is reasonable for a level 19 Rogue to have a higher search than 52 at level 19 is absolutely ridiculous.
    Your WIZARD Didn't cast GH on himself?

    That's another 3 right there - Believe it doesn't stack with Spider Mask.

    Ship Buffs = 1 More from +2 Int.

    Rogue Mech Awareness Enhancements are in Tier 1.
    Skill Boost is only Tier 2 {I do feel this should be Tier 1 too btw}.

    Cabal For One - Lvl 13 {15 Elite} has a Trap with a DC of 73 to Disable {Search for that trap is defo higher than 52!}.

    I don't feel 52 is good enough personally for a Lvl 19 Character.


    Now Cabal For One is Known as a ridiculously high Trap DC BUT Again it's ONLY Lvl 15 even on Elite - That 73 Disable should however be the standard at Lvl 19!

    let's lose the 7 from Thieves Tools and the 20 from the Dice {Search doesn't allow a Dice Roll} - Absolute MINIMUM Search Requirement for a Lvl 17 ELITE Quest should be no Lower than 46!

    Now let's add 15 back to it {Disable Only Crit Fails if you're 5 or more below the DC - You get Multiple shots at it if you can get to within 4 points of the DC.}.

    MAXIMUM Search Requirement for a Lvl 17 Elite Quest should be No Higher than 61! {57 would be more realistic.}.

    P.S. I ran Lords of Dust E-Hard earlier and the Rogue/Arti/Bard with me {a Drow with Nothing is Hidden} had the Trap Boxes APPEAR at the TOP of the Stairs!
    His Score = 78 BEFORE NiH {Which is an instant -4!}.
    He doesn't even HAVE to hit Search any longer - Just run near {not that near either} to the trap!

    I'll admit that He is Insane about Traps and Insists {Honestly he does} That Epic Elite DCs should be 110+ But 52? That's Low!

  20. #60
    Community Member favour6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Your WIZARD Didn't cast GH on himself?

    P.S. I ran Lords of Dust E-Hard earlier and the Rogue/Arti/Bard with me {a Drow with Nothing is Hidden} had the Trap Boxes APPEAR at the TOP of the Stairs!
    His Score = 78 BEFORE NiH {Which is an instant -4!}.
    He doesn't even HAVE to hit Search any longer - Just run near {not that near either} to the trap!

    I'll admit that He is Insane about Traps and Insists {Honestly he does} That Epic Elite DCs should be 110+ But 52? That's Low!
    that 78 was without GH or ship buffs, and with no exceptional spot or search just the basic 20. At the range the trap were getting spotted in some quests it will be easy to lose the box or have it sniped by another player.

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