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  1. #1
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    Default Are the devs still working on secret doors?

    It appears there are no more secret doors in the higher level game, at least for most of us. True seeing is not finding them. The trappers I have grouped with can't find them. So for all practical purposes, secret doors and the options they contain no longer exist. That is a lot of development time that was removed from the game. It would seem you wasted a lot of time making secret doors with optional objectives behind them if you are simply going to remove the ability for most groups to ever find them.

    I get that finding secret doors was too easy before. Too many people have clickies and could find every secret door. But true seeing should still be able to find all secret doors. It is not some level 1 spell but rather the ultimate spell of its kind. It needs to be able to do its job.

    My party ran the Reign of Madness chain tonight and we could not find any of the secret doors through any means, even with a trapper in the party. It is not even an epic level quest pack.
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  2. #2
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    Well, they took a system that was working fine and broke it. Color me surprised. Or not.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  3. #3
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    i know i ll receive beating, but iomho this change is for good. good trapper has meaning again. if ur rogues have problém finding doors, they re not simply good enough same waz as some caster srent able beat saves of monsters. it takes effort to be good at something.

    what devs did is just removing easy button from casters which emulate via simple spell ability one must spen quite bit of resources on.


    but be fine, rogues will never get that altar chest from lords of dust

  4. #4
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    A divination spell casted by a spellcasted should be as effective as the skill of a rogue. Spells are the job of a spellcaster, and they should be good. I'm tired of all nerfs to the magic.
    Last edited by Iriale; 09-04-2013 at 06:32 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  5. #5
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    maybe they shoud remove dc from knock spell as well, right? its magic - it should unlock things...

    and while we at it - why not remove save from finger of death - it says finger of death not finger of poke u in back

  6. #6
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    maybe they shoud remove dc from knock spell as well, right? its magic - it should unlock things...
    No, but knock should be better. Now it should be a spellcraft check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    and while we at it - why not remove save from finger of death - it says finger of death not finger of poke u in back
    no sense.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  7. #7
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    maybe they shoud remove dc from knock spell as well, right? its magic - it should unlock things...

    and while we at it - why not remove save from finger of death - it says finger of death not finger of poke u in back
    Actually...Knock should never have had a DC in the First Place! - It didn't in PnP!

    As for FoD - Saving throw to Negate has always been available {at least this spell had no arbitrary level limit on it unlike other Insta-Kills in PnP.}.


    Rangers should get Disable Device as a Class Skill.
    Bards should get Open Lock as a Class Skill {And/Or Knock!}.

    P.S. Nothing is Hidden is Great - All those Elven AAs out there can now find the Secret Doors and Trap Boxes {All the Rogue/Arti actually has to do is Disable}
    -Teamwork for the Win!

  8. #8
    Community Member tharveysinjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    maybe they shoud remove dc from knock spell as well, right? its magic - it should unlock things...

    and while we at it - why not remove save from finger of death - it says finger of death not finger of poke u in back
    You keep attacking arguments that no one is making, except for you. Surely you can find another way to win an argument than by arguing with yourself.
    No one stated that the DC should be removed for those casting knock, except you. Likewise, no one suggested that there should be no save against finger of death. these are strawman arguments that you are creating to try to inflate the value of your opinions.

    In contrast to your opinion, I would like to submit one that is born in rational thought. Part of the essence of D&D is that some magic is more powerful than other magic. That is why spells are assigned a level of power ranging from 1 to 9. On this scale, spells closer to the bottom of the scale are less powerful than those closer to the top. Knock is a second level spell. It's power is limited to opening locked items, but, only if the caster is able to make a
    overcome the difficulty class of the lock in question. If the spell were more powerful, one might presume that no DC check would have to be made. However, there is not a more powerful version of the spell, so, the spell remains subjected to its own constraints.

    True seeing, on the other hand, is a 6th level spell. It's spell description states that the recipient is able to see invisible and otherwise magically concealed objects. This includes secret doors etc. Turbine has created a dilemna here, because it is the developers who have decided to go off of the reservation with the changes to true-seeing and detect secret doors. It is my opinion, that this change is one that needs to be rolled-back. There is no need for the change at all. To suggest that these changes are needed to encourage grouping with rogues is, imho, also false. Traps are what need to be adjusted: magical traps, in particular, which cannot be located save by someone with the ability to find traps and a high enough search skill. rogues and artificers foot that bill and spellwards and other magical traps should be all that a party needs to encourage grouping with rogues. Breaking the game mechanics is not the way to go.




    Knock is a second level spell. True Seeing is 6th level. higher level spells are supposed to be more powerful. The spell descriptions tell you exactly what to expect.
    Treachery wears many masks, but none so treacherous as the mask of virtue.

  9. #9
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    Default secret

    One of the wheloon quests, secret wall, can see on EN, but not on EH or EE.

    So I guess more loot for EN runs!

    EDIT: Title was supposed to be "Secret Walls are also affected".

  10. #10
    Community Member visibleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    A divination spell casted by a spellcasted should be as effective as the skill of a rogue. Spells are the job of a spellcaster, and they should be good. I'm tired of all nerfs to the magic.
    So why not just do away with rogues completely?

    In fact, lets just make the game Wizards - the Gathering.

    Oh wait, then you'll just moan about all the SP pots you have to use because of all the Secret doors you have to find.

    This is how the Find Traps spell works:
    Grants the caster the ability to find traps much like a skilled Rogue. The caster gains an insight bonus of caster level/2 to the Search Skill.
    Detect Secret Doors should be exactly the same.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by visibleman View Post
    So why not just do away with rogues completely?

    In fact, lets just make the game Wizards - the Gathering.

    Oh wait, then you'll just moan about all the SP pots you have to use because of all the Secret doors you have to find.

    This is how the Find Traps spell works:


    Detect Secret Doors should be exactly the same.
    Divines can't undo trap boxes.

    Why would finding and searching for something be so darn special?

  12. #12
    Community Member tharveysinjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visibleman View Post
    So why not just do away with rogues completely?
    Why do people jump to this conclusion? No one is asking that this be done. Rogues can also, and thankfully so, find and disable traps, scout rooms and passages, dish-out some good DPS, etc.

    In accordance with D&D 3.5, the spell Detect Secret Doors ought to be able to find secret doors that have been specifically constructed to escape detection. Additionally, True Seeing should ". . .confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic . . ."
    Treachery wears many masks, but none so treacherous as the mask of virtue.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    but iomho this change is for good
    A. Your opinion is wrong (yes, it is possible for an opinion to be wrong).
    B. It's wrong because you clearly don't understand what they actually did.
    C. It's not really a Rogue's job to find secret doors. Here let me show you why:

    Detect Secret Doors
    Divination
    Level: Brd 1, Knowledge 1, Sor/Wiz 1
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: 60 ft.
    Area: Cone-shaped emanation
    Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No
    You can detect secret doors, compartments, caches, and so forth. Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

    1st Round
    Presence or absence of secret doors.

    2nd Round
    Number of secret doors and the location of each. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.

    Each Additional Round
    The mechanism or trigger for one particular secret portal closely examined by you. Each round, you can turn to detect secret doors in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
    Secret doors were never meant to be all that secret. This change is just another example of developer nerfing because they lack the skill necessary to design content based around the rules and so take the incompetent route of changing the rules to meet their story needs.

  14. #14
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    A. Your opinion is wrong (yes, it is possible for an opinion to be wrong).
    B. It's wrong because you clearly don't understand what they actually did.
    C. It's not really a Rogue's job to find secret doors. Here let me show you why:



    Secret doors were never meant to be all that secret. This change is just another example of developer nerfing because they lack the skill necessary to design content based around the rules and so take the incompetent route of changing the rules to meet their story needs.
    adA. your opinion is just your opinion. u have one, ok, have it
    adB. as above - and grats to great estimation skills u have to find out what i understand and what i dont.
    adC. bad - this is what we re talking about - http://ddowiki.com/page/Detect_Secret_Doors . your nice PnP spell is nice, but this is not PnP, so its quite irrelevat

  15. #15
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    We play heroes in a fantasy game.

    discovering a "secret" is suppose to be fun.

    Failing to discover a secret is not fun.


    Making secret doors undiscoverable (by anyone) takes the fun from a quest.

    (Edit: I should explain this one better.... if I am soloing on a Fighter, it is no fun if I cannot discover a secret door.... or a group of players where none of us are Rogues....it is still not fun when we cannot discover a secret door. It is also not fun when my Rogue cannot discover one... in fact, it is even more unfun, since I now have egg on my face and people blame my build)

    Of course, making them automatically discovered by everyone takes any thrill out of discovering a secret.........


    There has got to be a better way. IMO.






    Oh, and there should also be more options for opening locks.
    Strength (but maybe damage chest contents)
    Knock should have higher DCs at least.... (in fact, a DC pass should be done IMO. Knock clickies should not be a universal skeleton key, but a high level Wizard should be able to open any lock IMO.)
    (now we have the spell craft skill.... seems appropriate)
    (might be an option for detecting secret doors as well)

    In general, skill based DCs in this game are ridiculously high.
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 09-04-2013 at 09:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    We play heroes in a fantasy game.

    discovering a "secret" is suppose to be fun.

    Failing to discover a secret is not fun.


    Making secret doors undiscoverable (by anyone) takes the fun from a quest.

    (Edit: I should explain this one better.... if I am soloing on a Fighter, it is no fun if I cannot discover a secret door.... or a group of players where none of us are Rogues....it is still not fun when we cannot discover a secret door. It is also not fun when my Rogue cannot discover one... in fact, it is even more unfun, since I now have egg on my face and people blame my build)

    Of course, making them automatically discovered by everyone takes any thrill out of discovering a secret.........


    There has got to be a better way. IMO.






    Oh, and there should also be more options for opening locks.
    Strength (but maybe damage chest contents)
    Knock should have higher DCs at least.... (in fact, a DC pass should be done IMO. Knock clickies should not be a universal skeleton key, but a high level Wizard should be able to open any lock IMO.)
    (now we have the spell craft skill.... seems appropriate)
    (might be an option for detecting secret doors as well)

    In general, skill based DCs in this game are ridiculously high.
    Butchers patch - example. Hidden chest. Need what, Dex and Str to unlock? Early quests have lots of nifty ways to hide passages and chests. Like the underwater tunnel to chest inside a tube. Or the underwater chest that require someone to open and close trap doors so someone can swim to the other side and lock it.

    These are the things that the Devs should concentrate on. Make them clever - hidden switches, small puzzles etc.

    By fundamentally making half the game hidden from non search toon, forcing you to use gold hirelings or such is nonsense. It adds frustration and not entertainment. And maybe Turbine should remember that this is a game - not reality and not work. Sure - there are gamers that take their entertainment seriously and expect blood, sweat and tears but personally I just dislike frustrating mechanics that do not add the feeling of being awestruck by something and is just another lazy layer of nonsense ala poisoning.

  17. #17
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    If secret door clickies dropped with different dcs spread across the levels, than there would be less complaints and people would enjoy another aspect of the game. However, that totally negates the intended purpose by the devs.

    I vendored all my clickies and I had to think if it was actually worth pulling my Tharnes goggles out of my TR cache and wasting a spot in my backpack. I have 2 skill points I can spend each level on my TWF paladin. Do you really think I'm going to waste those 2 points to increase my search?

    I like the reasoning for the change, but its broken. This is DDO, not PnP. Either it needs to go back to the way it was before or meet us in the middle. Otherwise, its a senseless change and people will continue to skip more content.

  18. #18
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    If secret door clickies dropped with different dcs spread across the levels, than there would be less complaints and people would enjoy another aspect of the game. However, that totally negates the intended purpose by the devs.
    Actually this ^ is what most scares me about this change.

    The Devs have already done this to Weapons - Level Gating.

    If they do it to DSD Clickies than what it actually means is MORE Inv Spaces taken, MORE Bank Spaces taken and MORE Shared Bank Spaces taken up!
    Heck - Guild Chests may end up full of Clickies too {Mine's already half full with +5 Thieves Tools!}.


    Next it will be Feather Fall and Underwater Action - Heck I'd love to see how the Devs work their way round to level gating those!


    In fact...If High level DSD Clickies start appearing in-game that actually work where Lower Level Ones don't I for one Will Definitely be Complaining...And I'm Pretty certain I won't be Alone!

    True Seeing in My Opinion should work no matter what!

    Oh and I'll say again - Knock should NOT be DC Based! - I've said this Over and Over again over the Past 3 Years and I'll Keep saying it...
    Knock is Supposed to Open ALL Locks!
    Not just standard Locks!

    In Fact - It was Open Locks that COULDN'T Open Magical Locks!
    Knock was NEEDED for those!

    In DDO - Pretty Much ALL Locks Past Lvl 5 are Magical in Origin so...Making OL worthwhile is a Good Thing.
    BUT Making Knock USELESS is NOT!

    I'm Still Utterly Astonished at the fact that I can take a Lvl 15 Sorc out to Restless Isles Explorer {Higher than the Max Lvl for Said Slayer} and NOT be able to Knock certain Doors or ONE Chest even on a roll of 20!

    At the Very Least - A roll of 20 Should be a Guaranteed Success on Knock - Still could end up using up a LOT of SPs But at least you know you'll eventually get that Chest/Door Open!

  19. #19

    Default Better idea

    Here's a better idea then to divide players between those with search and those without.

    For each quest add 1 - 5 different off the beaten path locations. At each and one of them there's a chance that you either find a brick wall or an entrance. This leads to 1 of 10 (or however many) different 'random' additional dungeons. It's either one of 3 diff trapped, 3 different super spawned with critter and 4 regular spawned critter dungeons. With Hard and Elite it increase the chance of super spawned and trapped. These dungeons can be long or short.

    If the player decide to complete one it gives good amount of XP, 1-3 chests (1 on normal, 2 hard and 3 elite) after a end fight with that dungeon boss (again one of 10 different ones).

    A) this promote exploration.
    B) This is random
    C) You can find more then one in each quest
    D) It's purely optional
    E) The critters are diverse - sometimes you'll run into something you're not prepared to

    That way you can keep the current mechanic as it was but you're introducing something 100% random and optional.

    That's something unique vs a lazy shortcut.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Secret doors were never meant to be all that secret. This change is just another example of developer nerfing because they lack the skill necessary to design content based around the rules and so take the incompetent route of changing the rules to meet their story needs.
    This.
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