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  1. #1
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Default Dwarves! (\(^_^)/)

    So I've finally succumbed to temptation and decided to make a pure 20 dwarf fighter. Don't ask me why, it's just an itch I've had for about a year.

    First, the credentials:
    Been playing for 5 years, off and on
    I have 5 multi-life TR's (highest is on his 12th life)
    I know plenty about spellcasters, rogues, and monks and a little about paladins, but nothing about fighters
    I'm an oddball: I like my characters pure (only time I ever multi'd was a 18/2 pali fighter tank which now sits collecting dust)

    Specifics:
    first life 32 point build (with veteran 7 status)
    pure 20 class
    full +2 tomes available
    two-weapon fighting

    So, I have a few questions:

    1. CON or STR? I've flip-flopped on this issue and, with the new enhancements, I can't decide. Dwarves can use their CON instead of STR for damage, but I've wondered about this, simply because there are many important combat feats that require strength: cleave, great cleave, power attack, and overwhelming critical to name the most common. Fighters also get that +8 psionic bonus to strength via enhancements. This also leads to a dilemma with question two.

    2. TWF: dwarven axes for damage or warhammers and try to go for a stun build? I know, I know, warhammers aren't exactly top notch dps, but they have a certain appeal to me, for some reason. I can't explain why; either weapon would do, but I'd like some input on those who know more about melee-weapon combat than myself.

    3. Pure fighter or pure ranger? I'm leaning heavily towards a fighter build for the extra feats and such, but a tempest ranger has good survivability and can help with the TWF feats and TWF damage. Or go totally off-the-wall and go pure paladin?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post

    1. CON or STR? I've flip-flopped on this issue and, with the new enhancements, I can't decide. Dwarves can use their CON instead of STR for damage, but I've wondered about this, simply because there are many important combat feats that require strength: cleave, great cleave, power attack, and overwhelming critical to name the most common. Fighters also get that +8 psionic bonus to strength via enhancements. This also leads to a dilemma with question two.
    You can't use your con for attack bonus. You can't use your con for tactics. You can't use your con for overwhelming critical. I know what stat I would use. :P

    2. TWF: dwarven axes for damage or warhammers and try to go for a stun build? I know, I know, warhammers aren't exactly top notch dps, but they have a certain appeal to me, for some reason. I can't explain why; either weapon would do, but I'd like some input on those who know more about melee-weapon combat than myself.
    What about heavy picks?

    3. Pure fighter or pure ranger? I'm leaning heavily towards a fighter build for the extra feats and such, but a tempest ranger has good survivability and can help with the TWF feats and TWF damage. Or go totally off-the-wall and go pure paladin?
    It depends how much self-healing matters to you and what you can get your umd to. If you feel comfortable with a dwarf's ability to stay alive, then I'd go fighter. I think it's still clearly the top DPS option when compared to tempest.

  3. #3
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You can't use your con for attack bonus. You can't use your con for tactics. You can't use your con for overwhelming critical. I know what stat I would use. :P
    That's the same conclusion I reached. I'm sure it'd be nice to make a dwarf with ridiculously high HP, but it doesn't seem practical.


    What about heavy picks?
    I thought about heavy picks for their crit profile, but there's just not many good ones. Even warhammers and dwarven axes have more unique/named variations than heavy picks. You're sort of stuck with random loot.


    It depends how much self-healing matters to you and what you can get your umd to. If you feel comfortable with a dwarf's ability to stay alive, then I'd go fighter. I think it's still clearly the top DPS option when compared to tempest.
    Tempest does seem more of a defensive/self-sufficient sort of melee class. It's just I look at the kensei tree and it seems very...monk-ish. I sort of envisioned a dwarf in heavy plate with two huge axes, not a dwarf in robes.

  4. #4
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    3. Pure fighter or pure ranger? I'm leaning heavily towards a fighter build for the extra feats and such, but a tempest ranger has good survivability and can help with the TWF feats and TWF damage. Or go totally off-the-wall and go pure paladin?
    Just an fyi. The tempest capstone MIGHT be broken currently. On Lam it was tested and found that offhand doublestrike chance only procced when mainhand doublestrikes went off. No one seems to know if this went live or not. It has been shown on a monk that offhand doublestrikes were proccing independently of mainhand doublestrikes, so this apparently does not affect all offhand doublestrikes, but that doesn't mean the tempest capstone is WAI.

    Without the capstone, pure tempest is total garbage imo.

    If you do go pure tempest, please check to see if you are getting offhand doublestrikes without mainhand doublestrikes and reply here with your results. It'd be much appreciated.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  5. #5
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    1. CON or STR? I've flip-flopped on this issue and, with the new enhancements, I can't decide. Dwarves can use their CON instead of STR for damage, but I've wondered about this, simply because there are many important combat feats that require strength: cleave, great cleave, power attack, and overwhelming critical to name the most common. Fighters also get that +8 psionic bonus to strength via enhancements. This also leads to a dilemma with question two.
    Power attack requires minimum strength 13. You'd want at least 13 for your attack bonus, even if you go Con based. Note that Power Attack simply trades attack bonus for damage, so while you need to make sure you get attack bonuses from other sources than strength, there's nothing that ties power attack to strength as such. For example you could take power attack with weapon finesse and maximise Dex and Con, which would be a good choice for certain class+weapon combos if they didn't already get dex-for-dmg enhancements. But I digress.

    Cleave and Great cleave are not tied to strength in any way except indirectly through Power Attack and Overwhelming Critical

    Strength bonuses are a bigger issue, being a major selling point of the fighter class.
    Last edited by stoerm; 09-02-2013 at 02:10 AM.
    Praise the Dark Six and pass the heals to pure melees.
    Full feat tree; Cannith; change; merger; evil; win; minmaxing; FotM; deja vu; Kobolds.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    TWF: dwarven axes for damage or warhammers and try to go for a stun build? I know, I know, warhammers aren't exactly top notch dps, but they have a certain appeal to me, for some reason. I can't explain why; either weapon would do, but I'd like some input on those who know more about melee-weapon combat than myself.
    I played a pure bludgeoning fighter to cap as one of my fighter life's, the novelty wore off fast for me and I wished I chosen slashing. When I TR'ed him into slashing, I was all "Yeah! Dual khopeshes rock!", if I'd been a Dwarf, I would have thought "Yeah! Dual Dwarven Axes rock!"

    I just felt like I was doing more damage, which I was of course, but it was a combination of too many sword and sorcery movies and the DDO animations that made it a more enjoyable experience for me. Of course now you can get a vorpal light hammer in random loot, so anything goes!

    Oh and as to CON, doesn't the dwarven top tier dragonmark use CON in it's DC's to earthgrab?

  7. #7
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies.

    So it seems I'll be going with my original plan of a TWF, dwarven axe, str-based dwarf.

    So, I'll be going for power attack, cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical, toughness, improved critical: slashing, two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, greater two-weapon fighting, oversize two-weapon fighting, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, and greater weapon specialization.

    That's 14 feats, which leaves me with 7 feats to use (including 24 and 27). Dodge/mobility/spring attack (and get more max dexterity bonus from defender tree)? Go for some situational ranged feats? Skill focus: UMD for scroll healing? More toughness? Improved trip/stunning blow? Two-weapon blocking/defense?

  8. #8
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    That's 14 feats, which leaves me with 7 feats to use (including 24 and 27). Dodge/mobility/spring attack (and get more max dexterity bonus from defender tree)? Go for some situational ranged feats? Skill focus: UMD for scroll healing? More toughness? Improved trip/stunning blow? Two-weapon blocking/defense?
    At least consider the Dwarven dragonmark, remember under the new system it's only one feat and the rest via enhancements on the racial tree. Normally spending on the racial tree is a pain when there's nothing there you want, but considering all the other Fighter goodies it's a low cost to the top tier dragonmark. Have a look. Also from a roleplay perspective it's nice to play a dwarf that's so in tune with the earth that the very rock itself will lurch up to grab your foes, like you're some legendary dwarven "rock whisperer"!

  9. #9
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    At least consider the Dwarven dragonmark, remember under the new system it's only one feat and the rest via enhancements on the racial tree. Normally spending on the racial tree is a pain when there's nothing there you want, but considering all the other Fighter goodies it's a low cost to the top tier dragonmark. Have a look. Also from a roleplay perspective it's nice to play a dwarf that's so in tune with the earth that the very rock itself will lurch up to grab your foes, like you're some legendary dwarven "rock whisperer"!
    I had thought about that, but the only selling point I saw on it was the radiant forcefield clicky (with only 1 minute cooldown, though). Racial trees also tend to be distracting from the 'better' stuff in the class trees.

  10. #10
    2015 DDO Players Council FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    The dwarf racial tree stuff is pretty nice, they've definitely gotten a lot of love in the enhancement pass My alternative paladin (12fvs/6fighter/2monk stalwart defender) is even tougher now than before
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  11. #11
    Community Member skorpeon's Avatar
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    Default So I am thinking of rolling my Dwarven fighter (lvl20)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    At least consider the Dwarven dragonmark, remember under the new system it's only one feat and the rest via enhancements on the racial tree. Normally spending on the racial tree is a pain when there's nothing there you want, but considering all the other Fighter goodies it's a low cost to the top tier dragonmark. Have a look. Also from a roleplay perspective it's nice to play a dwarf that's so in tune with the earth that the very rock itself will lurch up to grab your foes, like you're some legendary dwarven "rock whisperer"!
    Rerolling fighter into Barbranger

    I kinda liked some things I am reading on the Barbarian 18/ranger 1/fighter 1 (or go rogue1) build. I can stay dwarf. maybe TWF although was tempted (as I have a nice dwarven axe collection). Maybe just too many choices here but I like the idea of a flavour dwarf build.

    So many choices. Intersteing to read about the Dwarven tree, but I think I would invest more in Barb and ranger trees. Any thoughts

    Could be many shot before charging into melee in full rage!

  12. #12
    Community Member TheGuyYouKnow's Avatar
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    str vs con: there are more ways to increase str than con so will end up more than your con most of the time either way,
    your tactics still rely on str
    war hammers vs dwarven axe: tactics like stunning can come up on slashing weapons now so axes come out ahead, there are also non weapon items that have tactical DCs on them.
    fighter or ranger: ranger will be far more versatile with a ranged DPS from manyshot, evasion, cures and free TWF/ranges feats
    Fighter will end up with greater tactical DCs, more damage on average and more health/feats.
    if you wouldn't mind multiclassing i would say 14fighter 6ranger or 18fighter 2ranger and end up better than either as pure class

    in the end it depends if you want to solo or party more often, the ranger is great for solo and fighter is better in party
    Elemo IronCast - Patorikku Yama - Happyfruit Wardancer - Toysoldier - Wookiee ~Ghallanda~

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGuyYouKnow View Post
    str vs con: there are more ways to increase str than con so will end up more than your con most of the time either way,
    your tactics still rely on str
    war hammers vs dwarven axe: tactics like stunning can come up on slashing weapons now so axes come out ahead, there are also non weapon items that have tactical DCs on them.
    fighter or ranger: ranger will be far more versatile with a ranged DPS from manyshot, evasion, cures and free TWF/ranges feats
    Fighter will end up with greater tactical DCs, more damage on average and more health/feats.
    if you wouldn't mind multiclassing i would say 14fighter 6ranger or 18fighter 2ranger and end up better than either as pure class

    in the end it depends if you want to solo or party more often, the ranger is great for solo and fighter is better in party
    IMO both fighter and ranger are tough to sell pure class right now. They both benefit so much from other classes and other class PRE, especially tempest + kensei. The tough part right now for fighter is that there is no other PrE outside kensei to pick up nice additions from since darn near everything in defender only works with shields. Tempest gets some nice stuff to choose from in the DWS and AA trees, and will give you evasion, nice heals, FoM, etc from spells, and ranged damage so you aren't sitting with your thumb in your bum when targets can't be reached in melee. Pure fighter might give a touch more damage, but pure ranger gives you a ton of versatility and solo ability. Fighters do make up for some of that with tactics though.

    RE: picks - deathnips are plenty good enough to use 14-25), but just having deathnips doesn't give you situational variety you may want (DR breakers, paralysers, etc). None of these weapon choices hold a candle to khopesh or rapier though, so... any of the 3 will work since you get the racial bonuses to them.

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