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  1. #21
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I've been wrestling with the question of "How do we increase pugging?" for quite a while now. While there's some good ideas going on here, a key thing to keep in mind is that what you're actually trying to do is get people to change how they play.

    •People who only group with guildies/friends/channels will continue to do so regardless of changes made. Anything that benefits playing in a group just rewards them for doing what they already do.

    •People who prefer to solo because of RL constants "I don't have time to wait to fill" "New baby/I play at work means lots of AFKs" "I don't play well with others" etc will still have those issues regardless of any changes made.

    •"I prefer to solo, if the game's too hard to solo I'll just find a different one." Turbine has bent over backwards, implementing scaling and redesigning quests to accommodate this crowd, so I highly doubt they'll reverse that course.

    IMHO those are the top three issues stifling the pug scene, with a strong fourth being total player population. A larger total population (in theory) increases each of the sub populations, including us puggers. Honestly, other than increased/better advertising/marketing to grow the total player base, I don't see what could possably be done to have a real impact on increasing use of the LFM panel.
    There is a fourth type. I'm probably one of them, it's called the path of resistance, since there are systems that make me have to work harder and usually gain less if I pug compared to solo, I solo unless I really want company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I disagree that scaling should be used to give incentive to run in groups. It just shouldn't be giving an incentive not to. Make it neutral in that regard and let the players decide how they want to play.
    This is it exactly, currently scaling and death penalties give incentive to solo rather than making it neutral. Yes for all of you that think turbine can do no wrong it's 10% of base not total yada yada yada, however penalty>0 so it still takes away xp usually for pugging.

  2. #22
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    It would probably be a good idea to just take the no death bonus out too, as it seems to do more harm than good.

    But really, nothing short of vastly lowering or removing the detrimental effects poor play can have will make pugging the preferred method of play for this game.
    Last edited by Gremmlynn; 09-02-2013 at 06:42 PM.

  3. #23
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    There is a fourth type. I'm probably one of them, it's called the path of resistance, since there are systems that make me have to work harder and usually gain less if I pug compared to solo, I solo unless I really want company.

    This is it exactly, currently scaling and death penalties give incentive to solo rather than making it neutral. Yes for all of you that think turbine can do no wrong it's 10% of base not total yada yada yada, however penalty>0 so it still takes away xp usually for pugging.
    Both are good points. I've always agreed that scaling is an impediment to pugging, unfortunately it seems to have favorably addressed a player retention/revenue issue for Turbine; that's why I firmly believe we're stuck with it. That said, scaling really only "makes a quest harder" for groups when it's one or two players carrying the rest. In my experience, four man (max scale) group of competent players working together can & will beat a quest faster and easier than a soloist - unless it's an invis & run to the boss for a beat down approach, DA works agains doing that in a (scaled) group; but for "standard" questing of kill/break/find & disable (some or all) of the stuff & defeat the boss *groups are faster & easier than soloing.* Slightly more so if the group is sticking together and working cohesively, especially more so if using the "divide and conquer method."

    *That is of course ignoring certain other factors like waiting to fill (which I don't, I post IP), waiting for someone to re-up spell components, potions, scrolls etc, letting the guy who died rebuff and so on; however all of those issues are beyond Turbines ability to fix for us.

    Yes, I realize I said competent players. New players can still be competent, provided they announce their newness and actually listen to & follow advice & directions. However, pugging always carries the risk of getting some yahoo that wants to drink a Potion of Wonder just prior to the boss fight (and get the party-wiping bomb result), Turn the Palemaster for giggles or do any number of inane things counter productive to the group. Again, nothing I can think of Turbine could do to alleviate that problem either.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 09-02-2013 at 06:51 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  4. #24
    Community Member Maldorin's Avatar
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    + 10 % XP for a full party completion.

    + 10 % to Bravery Bonus for completion with an LFM party.

  5. #25
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Yes, I realize I said competent players. New players can still be competent, provided they announce their newness and actually listen to & follow advice & directions.
    This right there is the problem. I actually like finding a new player that will actually say they're new. (These are newbies) Problem is most instead don't say they're new and act like they know it. (These are noobs)

    A couple months ago I was showing a "semi-new" player what I do for farming some quests as it was their first tr and didn't want to get stuck in a dead zone with xp. (not that second life is bad, but they wanted to know for third life as well) It was a pleasant night. I wish this wasn't the exception to the rule.

  6. #26
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The problem is that the bonuses are not seen as bonuses for success, they are seen as punitive penalties when failing. As long as people have this view point, we will not be able to have nice things.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #27
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The problem is that the bonuses are not seen as bonuses for success, they are seen as punitive penalties when failing. As long as people have this view point, we will not be able to have nice things.
    yep. adding more bonus to try and get pug or any party to fill wont change this frame of mind.

  8. #28
    Community Member Snapdragoon's Avatar
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    glad to see this thread is doing well ^_^

    I was just trying to think out all the problems that are a detriment to puging, specifically those of a mechanical and of a controllable nature (cannot change some variables like a persons competence) and a lot of them are just downsides.

    so assuming you are a competent player that can solo the quest just fine. what reasons would you have for making a group? I am not including forced grouping because of quest mechanics.

    Pros:
    -could go faster
    -could not think of anything else XD

    Cons:
    -could go slower
    -death penalty
    -scaling making things harder so you have to assume other players can make up the difference
    -DA causing possible problems (slower quest, death penalties, etc.)
    -time required for a group to join
    -time required for said group to make it to the quest


    Im sure there are more, but I just wanted to get the basic ones out of the way. As it stands I don't think its really even that there are not good reasons to pug, but that there are better reasons not to pug, and that's kind of sad.

    I think until things are fixed, we will continue to see hundreds of people online, and very few LFM's in the lfm list, there are just good mechanical reasons to solo/duo.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The problem is that the bonuses are not seen as bonuses for success, they are seen as punitive penalties when failing. As long as people have this view point, we will not be able to have nice things.
    I agree. Maybe if the penalties were taken away for groups of 5 that filled from the lfm panel. A 15% bonus for each member past the 4th for a total of 30% at 6 members.

    A few things would also need to change for new players to get used to the game more easily. Like guide trails in quests and to quests in wilderness/public spaces. A map that displays levels.

  10. #30
    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blametroi View Post
    Group should not be penalized for pugging. Since even dropping the various penalties will not open things up for many players, I recommend incentives for pugging. One game i Know offers an XP boost and has a concept of social points. I don't see social points fitting in to DDO, but more XP for grouping or something similar might be worthwhile.
    +1 (XP Boost) Say 10% for each additional player...

    After 1st life the bottom line becomes XP. I used to be somewhat anti-BB,
    but now that I have gotten used to it, and now that I NEED it - I never break it.
    Nothing will change behavior more effectively, for TR players at least, than adding XP.

  11. #31
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Encouraging people to pug? Well, don't be an ******* and show manners, since you are dealing with people. That's all.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  12. #32
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    +1 (XP Boost) Say 10% for each additional player...

    After 1st life the bottom line becomes XP. I used to be somewhat anti-BB,
    but now that I have gotten used to it, and now that I NEED it - I never break it.
    Nothing will change behavior more effectively, for TR players at least, than adding XP.
    The bonus for full party wouldnt necessarily encourage pug'ing. It might just make the ones avoiding it now find likeminded another way. I doubt that ANY game mechanic would encourage pug'ing, since people avoiding it have too diverse reasons.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  13. #33
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    DDO has become too easy to solo, that is the problem. Everything else is a matter of playstyle.

    Any quest should ONLY be possible to complete solo on casual. Casual difficulty should be what is now normal difficulty.
    On normal difficulty, mobs should be tough enough that a player at lvl (or even 2-3 lvl above the CR) does not stand a chance alone, unless a multiple TR and seriously "overgeared". Why? Because in PnP no lvl 3 player character can kill 200 kobolds alone (for example).

    When players are unable to complete quests soloing, they WILL have to group. They will have to work together. It will increase interaction.

    The reason why DDO is so newbie-unfriendly and generally antisocial is simply because being friendly and social is not a requirement to play (i.e. complete quests). It rather hinders play because of waiting for other players etc. Why wait if you can do it alone? - is the sentinment that has unfortunately developed from that.

    DDO is not an MMO. It's a soloplayer game with an optional multiplayer mode. Instead of making more incentives for multiplayer, it should be a requirement for success beyone the casual difficulty levels.

    So if what's now "elite" difficulty in a quest were to become the new "normal" difficulty and no more scaling for additional players (or maybe leave scaling only the new "elite") players would have to group together. Grouping wouldn't be a penalty, as there's no increase in difficulty, instead it would make the quest easier, as it should. On the other hand, making the quest easier for a group would mean: Just easy enough that the group can complete it.

    I'm also very much in favor of quest designs that require specific classes to be part of the party to complete all optionals (note: optionals, not main objective!). I don't mean just rogues/artis for the traps, but all kinds of situations where class-typical skills or knowledge is required. That could make use of the knowledge feats.
    For example:

    You need to have a cleric/fvs to decipher the meaning of an ancient religious text, to figure which of 5 levers to pull to open the secret door. For the cleric who succesfully deciphers the text, the right lever would be highlighted. The group might try without (still have a 1 in 5 chance), but only get one try.
    Similar situations could work with wizards/sorcs of course.

    A monk must meditate at a specific spot on the floor to focus their thoughts, upon which a chest will appear. Other characters can't do it.

    You need to have a paladin/fighter/bard walk into a room to duel an enemy while the rest of the group must watch. If a different class walks into the room, nothing happens. If the right class walks in, a gate closes, the duel ensues and after it, the gate reopens (so if the character dies the soulstone can be recovered) and there's loot for the whole party.

    Only a druid could talk/appease an angry dryad to let the group pass a specific shortcout around tough mobs. (Or perhaps other classes could try to use the diplomacy skill, but with -20 penalty).

    A bard would have to perform a song in front of an audience to calm down/inspire a crowd. If he's successful, the party gets some allies in the final fight, which would otherwise be a lot tougher.

    There could be many optional things designed for specific classes (or even races) in a quest. Nothing that's required for completion, just gives this little extra (xp, additional chest) for having the right character on the group in the right moment or makes it that extra bit easier that helps save the day. Isn't that how it works in PnP? Why don't we add some of that feeling back into DDO?

  14. #34
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    2) no. its already easy enough for players who aren't even very experienced. challenge in quests has gone completely downhill for several years. theres only a small per cent of heroic quests that are actually challenging to your average player and for your experienced vet. removing or decreasing DS would only make it even more easy for the inexperienced and makes it even more of a cake walk for vets. easy buttons already exist in the game, lets improve the DS and not make it easier. completions have been an expected thing for a very long time and I haven't been in group wipe in many many months, pugging or guild, that didn't involve lag.
    Just scale for 6 persons then. Doesn't change the challenge for full groups, but encourages getting extra players for small groups.

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