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  1. #1
    Community Member Snapdragoon's Avatar
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    Default ideas to encourage pug'ing

    I think this is a very core problem that could be fixed, and has already been kind of started on already. so first why do people not join groups or post an lfm?

    death penalty
    dungeon scaling
    dungeon alert
    ineffectiveness of player or their toon (:P)
    xp/min

    some of these we can fix, some we cannot. I would like to point out I think the new ransack mechanics help because instead of farming something once and being done you can go back to it in a day or two and farm it again, thus LFM's for good farms are seen slightly more frequently from what I have witnessed.

    1) death penalty: is one of the few D&D mechanics still around, and for that reason alone I would not want to se it go, but from a gameplay standpoint people don't want to die, and the group should not be punished for one persons mistake. so possible solutions:

    -remove it completely
    -limit it to those characters that die (one person dies, they and only they get a -10% xp)

    2) dungeon scaling: get rid of this, bringing more people should only ever be a good thing and encouraged. if it makes things easy, good, its an incentive, its supposed too. perhaps raise base difficulty a tad but do away with dungeon scaling. so possible solutions are:

    -remove it completely
    -increase base difficulty at all levels a bit (2-3 people) but remove scaling.

    3) dungeon alert: this really needs to be tweaked, especially when some quests its unavoidable by design. but if skipping monsters is a problem then increase the reward for killing them or change quest design to require killing them (ala high road end quest) so possible solutions

    -decrease base xp a tad, but increase killing bonus to give greater net xp overall make killing monsters more xp/min effective

    4) no solution here :P

    5) I think a bonus of 2% xp per party member (raids excluded maybe? I don't think they get run for xp so maybe a possible 24% bonus xp would be good?) would appeal enough to xp per min players to bother posting a group. I also think that a better teleport to the quest feature needs to be implemented so that when you join an LFM it will bestow the quest (if possible) and give you an option to teleport straight to the quest entrance.
    As it stands a lot of people just don't like waiting for groups to fill, and even when they fill you have to wait around for people to wander their way to the quest.

    conclusion: I think if some or all of these were implanted we would see a growth of LFM posting if bringing more people had no drain on the host and would only provide a benefit to quest completion. perhaps solo peeps would just want to post an LFM for a 12% xp bonus while they solo'd the quest :P at least we would get more groups.

    P.S. I solo or group when I want and enjoy the game very much, this is not meant to improve my game directly ^_^

  2. #2
    Community Member Sarkastik's Avatar
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    Default Agreed for the most part

    I'm not sure I agree with #5, but completely agree with you on 1-3.

  3. #3
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Default

    1) removing death penalty or making it so it only affects the person that dies would make it so there would be less team play. teamwork seems to vary from group to group, but there would be less helpful players lending a hand.

    2) no. its already easy enough for players who aren't even very experienced. challenge in quests has gone completely downhill for several years. theres only a small per cent of heroic quests that are actually challenging to your average player and for your experienced vet. removing or decreasing DS would only make it even more easy for the inexperienced and makes it even more of a cake walk for vets. easy buttons already exist in the game, lets improve the DS and not make it easier. completions have been an expected thing for a very long time and I haven't been in group wipe in many many months, pugging or guild, that didn't involve lag.

    3) DA does need to be fixed. there are some quests that immediately go to green to red when just walking into a room and having killed everything before entering. the increase in DA depends from quest to quest. other than that, DA makes sense to me and the reasoning for it doesnt need to be changed.

    4) the solution is to slow down or stop making DDO into 1 big easy button. make players put a little effort into building their characters and learning to play their characters instead of all these pay options and nerfs to mobs/quests.

    5) xp/min is player choice and its because players have set a time problem for themselves. they shouldn't be rewarded more because they want to run a quest faster than players who like to go at a slower pace. again DS makes it so the average player can run quests fast and shrug off DA. its a play style that has become the norm in the game for a long time.

  4. #4
    Community Member mannielrpc's Avatar
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    Default Too easy.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    2) no. its already easy enough for players who aren't even very experienced. challenge in quests has gone completely downhill for several years. theres only a small per cent of heroic quests that are actually challenging to your average player and for your experienced vet.
    +1... I think the problem myself is that there are so many healing options. so many players have the ability to self heal. Use to if u didn't have a cleric, u didn't have a chance. I remember healing shroud for the first time bout 4-5 years ago, how it was preached about taking turns healing, so we were not wasting SP healing the same DMG, and using the fountains for SP. How long has it been since you've seen someone use the fountains? Even for a pure Barb, they can get Silver flame Pots. My druid is 13, and we just 3 manned every quest in orchard last night. E/H/N. 1 druid,1 pally, 1 arti. Only had 2 deaths and it was in Inferno. Everything is just way too easy. And instead of just giving everything uber-HP to make this more difficult... try something different. Higher saves for one.

  5. #5
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapdragoon View Post
    I think this is a very core problem that could be fixed, and has already been kind of started on already. so first why do people not join groups or post an lfm?

    death penalty
    dungeon scaling
    dungeon alert
    ineffectiveness of player or their toon (:P)
    xp/min

    some of these we can fix, some we cannot. I would like to point out I think the new ransack mechanics help because instead of farming something once and being done you can go back to it in a day or two and farm it again, thus LFM's for good farms are seen slightly more frequently from what I have witnessed.

    1) death penalty: is one of the few D&D mechanics still around, and for that reason alone I would not want to se it go, but from a gameplay standpoint people don't want to die, and the group should not be punished for one persons mistake. so possible solutions:

    -remove it completely
    -limit it to those characters that die (one person dies, they and only they get a -10% xp)

    2) dungeon scaling: get rid of this, bringing more people should only ever be a good thing and encouraged. if it makes things easy, good, its an incentive, its supposed too. perhaps raise base difficulty a tad but do away with dungeon scaling. so possible solutions are:

    -remove it completely
    -increase base difficulty at all levels a bit (2-3 people) but remove scaling.

    3) dungeon alert: this really needs to be tweaked, especially when some quests its unavoidable by design. but if skipping monsters is a problem then increase the reward for killing them or change quest design to require killing them (ala high road end quest) so possible solutions

    -decrease base xp a tad, but increase killing bonus to give greater net xp overall make killing monsters more xp/min effective

    4) no solution here :P

    5) I think a bonus of 2% xp per party member (raids excluded maybe? I don't think they get run for xp so maybe a possible 24% bonus xp would be good?) would appeal enough to xp per min players to bother posting a group. I also think that a better teleport to the quest feature needs to be implemented so that when you join an LFM it will bestow the quest (if possible) and give you an option to teleport straight to the quest entrance.
    As it stands a lot of people just don't like waiting for groups to fill, and even when they fill you have to wait around for people to wander their way to the quest.

    conclusion: I think if some or all of these were implanted we would see a growth of LFM posting if bringing more people had no drain on the host and would only provide a benefit to quest completion. perhaps solo peeps would just want to post an LFM for a 12% xp bonus while they solo'd the quest :P at least we would get more groups.

    P.S. I solo or group when I want and enjoy the game very much, this is not meant to improve my game directly ^_^
    These are great ideas, and I'm glad that you are coming up with ways to get more LFMs up. You seem to have covered a lot of the bases.

    The potential for extra xp/minute is a strong incentive.

    The teleport to quest option would go a long way toward eliminating the problem of travel times causing late penalties for players joining in progress LFMs, especially when the quest is in a big explorer area

    One thing I might tweak is reducing dungeon scaling rather than doing away with it altogether. I am total agreement, however, that the way it works right now can be a deterrent to throwing up LFMs.

    As for dungeon alert, have it affect the members individually instead of having it be an overall group effect. That way when a player joins a group late and runs into the first three mobs in the quest, they aren't immediately immobilized by a red alert, but are instead clear of any alert, while the sorcs who are plowing ahead and gathering mobs for their aoe's and can handle a high dungeon alert better, which is why they weren't afraid to trigger it in the first place, may be running on a red. In other words, your personal dungeon alert should be based on how many mobs saw you. The way it works now doesn't make much sense and can discourage people from throwing up LFMs in certain instances, since players can inadvertently screw over other party members.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 09-01-2013 at 01:37 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapdragoon View Post
    I think this is a very core problem that could be fixed, and has already been kind of started on already. so first why do people not join groups or post an lfm?

    death penalty
    dungeon scaling
    dungeon alert
    ineffectiveness of player or their toon (:P)
    xp/min

    some of these we can fix, some we cannot. I would like to point out I think the new ransack mechanics help because instead of farming something once and being done you can go back to it in a day or two and farm it again, thus LFM's for good farms are seen slightly more frequently from what I have witnessed.

    1) death penalty: is one of the few D&D mechanics still around, and for that reason alone I would not want to se it go, but from a gameplay standpoint people don't want to die, and the group should not be punished for one persons mistake. so possible solutions:

    -remove it completely
    -limit it to those characters that die (one person dies, they and only they get a -10% xp)

    2) dungeon scaling: get rid of this, bringing more people should only ever be a good thing and encouraged. if it makes things easy, good, its an incentive, its supposed too. perhaps raise base difficulty a tad but do away with dungeon scaling. so possible solutions are:

    -remove it completely
    -increase base difficulty at all levels a bit (2-3 people) but remove scaling.

    3) dungeon alert: this really needs to be tweaked, especially when some quests its unavoidable by design. but if skipping monsters is a problem then increase the reward for killing them or change quest design to require killing them (ala high road end quest) so possible solutions

    -decrease base xp a tad, but increase killing bonus to give greater net xp overall make killing monsters more xp/min effective

    4) no solution here :P

    5) I think a bonus of 2% xp per party member (raids excluded maybe? I don't think they get run for xp so maybe a possible 24% bonus xp would be good?) would appeal enough to xp per min players to bother posting a group. I also think that a better teleport to the quest feature needs to be implemented so that when you join an LFM it will bestow the quest (if possible) and give you an option to teleport straight to the quest entrance.
    As it stands a lot of people just don't like waiting for groups to fill, and even when they fill you have to wait around for people to wander their way to the quest.

    conclusion: I think if some or all of these were implanted we would see a growth of LFM posting if bringing more people had no drain on the host and would only provide a benefit to quest completion. perhaps solo peeps would just want to post an LFM for a 12% xp bonus while they solo'd the quest :P at least we would get more groups.

    P.S. I solo or group when I want and enjoy the game very much, this is not meant to improve my game directly ^_^
    Most of these ideas are good. I wouldn't touch Dungeon Alert though... well, it needs tweaking so it doesn't trigger when you do what you should, but the removal of dungeon alert would make grouping even worse. If you can just run to the end of a quest and complete, each person added to a group is an extra chance at headaches.

  7. #7
    Community Member blametroi's Avatar
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    Default Remove the penalties and provide incentives

    Group should not be penalized for pugging. Since even dropping the various penalties will not open things up for many players, I recommend incentives for pugging. One game i Know offers an XP boost and has a concept of social points. I don't see social points fitting in to DDO, but more XP for grouping or something similar might be worthwhile.

  8. #8
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    1) removing death penalty or making it so it only affects the person that dies would make it so there would be less team play. teamwork seems to vary from group to group, but there would be less helpful players lending a hand.
    There would however be lfms up. If pugging didn't have an xp tax I'd be more likely to toss up an lfm than I am now especially with the horrible new ransack nerf.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    There would however be lfms up. If pugging didn't have an xp tax I'd be more likely to toss up an lfm than I am now especially with the horrible new ransack nerf.
    I think the best thing for pugging would be if the game worked on a holiday weekend in primetime, lol.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by blametroi View Post
    Group should not be penalized for pugging. Since even dropping the various penalties will not open things up for many players, I recommend incentives for pugging. One game i Know offers an XP boost and has a concept of social points. I don't see social points fitting in to DDO, but more XP for grouping or something similar might be worthwhile.
    I wonder if we switched streaks so that they work according to how many times you pug in a row, what would happen. Not that I think it's a good idea... I would really be interested in the results though.

  11. #11
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    I think the best thing for pugging would be if the game worked on a holiday weekend in primetime, lol.
    lol very true.

  12. #12
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
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    I believe the opposite for dungeon scaling.

    A solo player should encounter the same dungeon conditions as any size group.

    Casual can be based on a 2 person group, able to do solo with a hireling or a good solo player.
    There could even be a penalty for going in with more than 3 people or something...

    Normal 2-3 person group, challenging to solo like the silly warnings say but are far from true.

    Hard balanced 4 person group, only serious, geared players with planning, patience and resources can solo...

    Elite - should expect a full party with several if not all components, damage mitigation/control, traps, dps, healing, etc.
    This would be very impressive to short man and amazing to solo unless they simply took hours and used endless resources.

    You would get more xp grouping in hard quests as they would be a pain to solo and expensive resource wise, thus, more grouping.

    Soloists would be fine, very good ones could occasionally do EH or short-man etc. for certain loot... but usually would live on normal setting.

    Right now, as many have stated...I for instance can quickly solo the entire eveningstar series on EH solo, almost in zerg mode. Stormhorns - maybe I am not best player, but can complete all content solo without wasting any resources like mana potions etc.

    But you bring a group and suddenly - encounters are 3-4 times as large - you are relying on everyone being able to handle the same as you...but they don't... you get mechanics like 4-5 Necromancers all ress'ing each other over and over or 5 assassins with chains whipping for 2x the damage or triple the casters landing stuns and holds on people and huge messes. I do not always want this risk... especially with random strangers.

    However, if the scaling stayed so I could really only realistically play normal solo... I could still solo when there was nothing to do, but would have good incentive to risk EH groups?

    Just my opinion.

    Recap on rest -

    death penalty - does not hardly ever amount to 10%, it is just base... people need to stop crying about it.
    dungeon scaling - covered above.
    dungeon alert - if you were rushed on the street by 100 people or 3... I think your decision making would be more overwhelmed by the 100 person rush... I think it is fine.

    ineffectiveness of player or their toon - always a problem in every endeavour in the entire world... no solution.

    xp/min - addressed some above as well. I am not asking for an xp nerf btw. I would actually increase EH and EE a little once the scaling was correct and the same for everyone.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah179 View Post
    death penalty - does not hardly ever amount to 10%, it is just base... people need to stop crying about it.
    pre shadowfail I would have agreed with you. However now I can't farm the good xp quests like I could and have to make it up with lower xp quests that in some cases we hate. That means every xp counts if the penalty is above zero it is a reason to not pug.

  14. #14
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    When I run a non-BB group (possibly just 1 level over because I've capped the previous level but still want to run all the level 16 quests for favour), even if I put "No BB" in the LFM, I often have people join, get to the quest, realize there is no BB, and leave.
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  15. #15
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    I think the best thing for pugging would be if the game worked on a holiday weekend in primetime, lol.
    This!
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  16. #16
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    The -10% is not that bad. It's 10% of the base exp, so base + streak + tome + kills + breaking + traps + search, and the actual effect is really minor. And some deaths are so funny they are easily worth it, such as my previous trip in Delera 4. 3 trappers and me, a sorc. First trapper tries to jump over poison trap, doesn't make it and dies. Second trapper follows, fails and dies. Third trapper follows the example. Hilarious, easily worth the 2%ish exp penalty.

    Dungeon alert is somewhat annoying, if people split up even a little, the alert starts to creep up fast. And even without splitting, as many quests have more mobs when there are more people.

    What is really bad, is scaling. If I solo quest in 10 minutes, and get a bunch of totally clueless players, it's bad enough that it takes me an extra minute to drag the stones from trap to shrine. But, if the actual quest completion slows down by adding more members, it just doesn't encourage partying.

  17. #17
    Community Member moomooprincess's Avatar
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    Default Why I never post an LFM

    Invariably, a player will make demands such as;

    "Hey, I don't need this quest, can you run this quest instead?" Uh no, that is why the LFM is the way it is.

    "Hey, this is not how to do the quest!" OK, start your own LFM then.

    If I join someone else's LFM, such as I need the quest for favor and I know I cannot solo it, I will be more than happy to drag a new player to the quest and show them where the quest giver is.

    Personally, the OPs five reasons are not showstoppers for me. The rudeness of players is the showstopper for me. I find that most new players are very inconsiderate and very rude.
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  18. #18
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    I've been wrestling with the question of "How do we increase pugging?" for quite a while now. While there's some good ideas going on here, a key thing to keep in mind is that what you're actually trying to do is get people to change how they play.

    •People who only group with guildies/friends/channels will continue to do so regardless of changes made. Anything that benefits playing in a group just rewards them for doing what they already do.

    •People who prefer to solo because of RL constants "I don't have time to wait to fill" "New baby/I play at work means lots of AFKs" "I don't play well with others" etc will still have those issues regardless of any changes made.

    •"I prefer to solo, if the game's too hard to solo I'll just find a different one." Turbine has bent over backwards, implementing scaling and redesigning quests to accommodate this crowd, so I highly doubt they'll reverse that course.

    IMHO those are the top three issues stifling the pug scene, with a strong fourth being total player population. A larger total population (in theory) increases each of the sub populations, including us puggers. Honestly, other than increased/better advertising/marketing to grow the total player base, I don't see what could possably be done to have a real impact on increasing use of the LFM panel.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapdragoon View Post
    2) dungeon scaling: get rid of this, bringing more people should only ever be a good thing and encouraged. if it makes things easy, good, its an incentive, its supposed too. perhaps raise base difficulty a tad but do away with dungeon scaling. so possible solutions are:

    -remove it completely
    -increase base difficulty at all levels a bit (2-3 people) but remove scaling.
    Actually setting base difficulty to 2-3 players would be lowering it. Base difficulty is what we get with 4 players in an instance. Scaling is adjusted from there.

    What really should be done, IMO, is to tweak the amount it is adjusted. Cap it at base and add one or more to the size the group is adjusted for until adding players generally gives more advantage than not. So sole would use two player scaling, duo three and 3 or more would use base and see how that goes.

    Also, remove scaling where it isn't appropriate. Mostly in the level based areas like saves and DC's.

    I disagree that scaling should be used to give incentive to run in groups. It just shouldn't be giving an incentive not to. Make it neutral in that regard and let the players decide how they want to play.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    As for dungeon alert, have it affect the members individually instead of having it be an overall group effect. That way when a player joins a group late and runs into the first three mobs in the quest, they aren't immediately immobilized by a red alert, but are instead clear of any alert, while the sorcs who are plowing ahead and gathering mobs for their aoe's and can handle a high dungeon alert better, which is why they weren't afraid to trigger it in the first place, may be running on a red. In other words, your personal dungeon alert should be based on how many mobs saw you. The way it works now doesn't make much sense and can discourage people from throwing up LFMs in certain instances, since players can inadvertently screw over other party members.
    Do this and they might as well just remove it. The whole purpose of DA is to get players not to play that way. Make it so it only effects those who can easily handle it and it serves no purpose but to encourage everyone else to pike.

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