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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Your right. I wasn't the person that used it tho. I was quoting the person who changed my term "Veteran" to "old person" in an attempt to switch words and split hairs as a wayto discredit what I said previously..

    "Endless and needless grinding" could be used to describe TR'ing too. They are equal in my book. Both End Game griding and TR'ing take an enormous amount of time for relatively small amount of gain. (and yes, some people can TR in 2 days, they are the exception not the rule.)
    Endgame is grinding a handful of quests at most, while TRing is grinding 100s of quests... perhaps making the term grinding not quite the right word to use. :P

  2. #22
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    That is true as well. Some (me) prefer to grind a relatively small amount of quests in search of the ever elusive loot (and a small bonus it bestows). Some prefer to grind a plethora of quests in a TR (for the small bonus it provides on the PL). So no matter how you play them, MMO's are all about the grind. Whether it be XP grinding (TR's) or loot grinding. Neither is better than the other, just a matter of personal choice.

    Now with raid counters broken, and only 1/3 of the problem scheduled to be fixed, they are taking away a major reason many "loot grinders/end-game grinders" play the game. So in that aspect, Turbine doesn't care for those players. (note that's not a blanket "they don't care about anything but money" statement. Different topic, for a different thread.)

  3. #23
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    While I can certainly understand how going through a difficult raid 20 times only to end up with less reward than expected/deserved can be frustrating, I'd just like to take a moment to put it in perspective.

    While this may certainly frustrated the avid raiders and dedicated players, and I understand they are an ssential part of the DDO experience and essential to its survival, much of the player world right now considers it a good day if they get a +8 or +9 item with some good suffixes and maybe an augment slot or two.

    After awhile this thread and threads like it begin to sound like people are just saying "Ohhh I only got a +42 stat tome instead of a +46 stat tome, what a ripoff!" I bet the vast majority of the player base hasn't looted a +3 Tome in ages, if ever.

    The concept of needing to do twenty of anything to get such a reward is something I don't find fun and I am saddened has become the emphasis of good raid rewards. Frankly I wish they lowered it to 5, or 3.

    I remember some old PnP groups where we'd be playing our level 4's in a new dungeon and a group of other people in the next room is arguing over whether to take their Ring of Wishes, their vorpal, their adamantine plate...etc. (Or the gatherings where some of my fellow computer enthusiasts would spend their time boasting about who had the Biggest Processor or wrote the fastest code...)

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  4. #24
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    That is true as well. Some (me) prefer to grind a relatively small amount of quests in search of the ever elusive loot (and a small bonus it bestows). Some prefer to grind a plethora of quests in a TR (for the small bonus it provides on the PL). So no matter how you play them, MMO's are all about the grind. Whether it be XP grinding (TR's) or loot grinding. Neither is better than the other, just a matter of personal choice.

    Now with raid counters broken, and only 1/3 of the problem scheduled to be fixed, they are taking away a major reason many "loot grinders/end-game grinders" play the game. So in that aspect, Turbine doesn't care for those players. (note that's not a blanket "they don't care about anything but money" statement. Different topic, for a different thread.)
    Not trying to be a jerk, but seriously, what are you talking about? How are they not fixing it? They have already said that the 20th lists are working, we have confirmation from players, it's just the counter doesn't display properly. I guess I'm missing it....where is the issue outside of the counter displaying incorrectly?

    Also, played the game the past four years, right at the start of F2P, but also played in beta way back when. I agree that the "vets" are a wide range of people, and some of us don't raid, so don't generalize.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by My2Cents View Post
    While I can certainly understand how going through a difficult raid 20 times only to end up with less reward than expected/deserved can be frustrating, I'd just like to take a moment to put it in perspective.

    While this may certainly frustrated the avid raiders and dedicated players, and I understand they are an ssential part of the DDO experience and essential to its survival, much of the player world right now considers it a good day if they get a +8 or +9 item with some good suffixes and maybe an augment slot or two.

    After awhile this thread and threads like it begin to sound like people are just saying "Ohhh I only got a +42 stat tome instead of a +46 stat tome, what a ripoff!" I bet the vast majority of the player base hasn't looted a +3 Tome in ages, if ever.

    The concept of needing to do twenty of anything to get such a reward is something I don't find fun and I am saddened has become the emphasis of good raid rewards. Frankly I wish they lowered it to 5, or 3.

    I remember some old PnP groups where we'd be playing our level 4's in a new dungeon and a group of other people in the next room is arguing over whether to take their Ring of Wishes, their vorpal, their adamantine plate...etc. (Or the gatherings where some of my fellow computer enthusiasts would spend their time boasting about who had the Biggest Processor or wrote the fastest code...)

    <Donning Flame Armor>

    While I don't understand "endgame" players, there seems to be a lot of them... at least on the forums, though I don't seem to notice as many in-game. If we were to switch to a 3, 4, 5 system, these people would be left with absolutely nothing to do. They could completely equip their toons in a day's time. So I don't mind the ridiculous endgame grind. It gives these people something to do... and is entirely needless and optional, so people who don't enjoy it can skip it completely.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Not trying to be a jerk, but seriously, what are you talking about? How are they not fixing it? They have already said that the 20th lists are working, we have confirmation from players, it's just the counter doesn't display properly. I guess I'm missing it....where is the issue outside of the counter displaying incorrectly?
    Ok bear with me as I try to explain it. It's still early AM for me.

    For reference since I will refer to this post a couple times:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    UPDATE: We have investigated the raid and quest completion counts and have identified the following regarding the counts:

    - The number of heroic completion and epic completions for the Caught in the Web raid are both incorrectly showing as completions from Fall of Truth. We will address this error in an upcoming patch.
    - Completions of Epic difficulty that occurred prior to Menace of the Underdark (Update 14) cannot be distinguished from heroic and are treated as heroic completions. You are most likely to experience this if you had played "epic" difficulty from the original Epic system back before the quest entrance UI was split into Epic/Heroic tabs, and Epic Character levels were introduced (suspects include: Vault of Night, Demon Queen, Chronoscope). Epic runs that occurred between MOTU and Shadowfell should properly show in the Epic side of the count. This will not be corrected.
    - Completions of Epic difficulty non-raid quests that occurred prior to Update 19 Patch 1 are listed as heroic in the completion counts (e.g. Phiarlan Carnival). Completions after U19 Patch 1 will appear in the correct column. This will not be corrected.

    We apologize for the confusion this causes to our raiders.
    I agree that some part of this is a display error. Most of it is in fact not as stated. I am not only one with the issues presented, the thread in-which these quote were taken from have a bunch of other people with similar problems.

    1. This color in the quote above is incorrect. I have Tr'ed my Sorc a couple times since MotU was introduced and has been sitting at cap far a couple months. Almost all my Evon6's are showing Heroic (I never ran heroic as I Otto Stoned his last life).

    The Vault of Night : Heroic: 12 / Epic : 1

    Since this was between MotU and Shadowfell they say it should be showing correctly. It is not..and as such won't be fixing it. Not a big deal unless they decide to change end rewards to reflect Heroic/Epic completions. Then it will be too late for me to try to get it fixed.


    2. The area in this color is incorrect as well. Using my Sorc as an example as well, all of my Shadowfell Stormhorn quests completions have been EE's.

    Lines of Supply : Heroic: 3 / Epic : 0
    The Tracker's Trap : Heroic: 2 / Epic : 0
    Breaking the Ranks : Heroic: 2 / Epic : 0
    A Break In the Ice : Heroic: 4 / Epic : 0

    I did those in just the past few days after 19.1. All EE's. They show as heroic in my counter when Tolero says it should be working correctly, it's not. I wonder if when the Saga NPC's come back if I will be only credited for Heroic Elites and not True Elite's. Since this is said to be working correctly there is no fix for this.


    3. I also keep track of raid completions on a pad of paper next to my computer and while I might have made a mistake, I wouldn't have been off by 5 or 6. Each of the CitW and FoT completions, when corrected like they told us we should are off. I am at 19 completions on my Sorc for MotU (I'm keeping very close tabs on this since my FVS was hit with the 20th End reward debacle). My counter says: Caught in the Web : Heroic: 11 / Epic : 10 for 21 total completions. Now they say I can talk to a GM and they will fix this. But when I tried, I was told it was not a known issue and to submit a bug report. When I asked for a senior GM my ticket was auto closed. As was a second ticket. See below for the official word that GM's are supposed to help you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    The GMs are working to help Caught in the Web runners who are in this predicament between now and when the patch is applied so that you get the list, and then when patch comes it goes to the right total number to avoid getting "skipped".
    So to those (not implying you Shorlong) who keep saying that I am needlessly bashing Turbine, I am not. I just want them to do what they say they are going to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    I agree that the "vets" are a wide range of people, and some of us don't raid, so don't generalize.
    And your right, it was late and I didn't want to try to define End-Game loot grinders who have already TR and prefer raiding. SO I grouped in all into one category and was wrong. I've adjusted my OP on veterans.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 09-01-2013 at 10:27 AM.

  7. #27
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    And your right, it was late and I didn't want to try to define End-Game loot grinders who have already TR and prefer raiding. SO I grouped in all into one category and was wrong. I've adjusted my OP on veterans.
    That is quite civil of you, thank you.

    That being said, I can see how it is disheartening, however, we have received confirmation that if you were on your 19th run, and you did your 20th run right now, even though the list doesn't show it, it would still count it as your 20th run.

    Having a GM help was intended for those who don't know what their completions actually are....the GM can tell you.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    That is quite civil of you, thank you.

    That being said, I can see how it is disheartening, however, we have received confirmation that if you were on your 19th run, and you did your 20th run right now, even though the list doesn't show it, it would still count it as your 20th run.

    Having a GM help was intended for those who don't know what their completions actually are....the GM can tell you.
    While this may be true, having been bit by the random loot generated list on my FVS's 20th, I am more than a tad weary. So many times they have said things are fixed ("display error") and they aren't. I will probably just play it safe and not run it on my Sorc until the supposed fix is in place. And tested.

  9. #29
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    While this may be true, having been bit by the random loot generated list on my FVS's 20th, I am more than a tad weary. So many times they have said things are fixed ("display error") and they aren't. I will probably just play it safe and not run it on my Sorc until the supposed fix is in place. And tested.
    which raid was this? Citw? that you just ran on your FS and got random loot for your 20th?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Having a GM help was intended for those who don't know what their completions actually are....the GM can tell you.
    How civil of Turbine to help it's customers out.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    which raid was this? Citw? that you just ran on your FS and got random loot for your 20th?
    It was CitW, yes. But that was the day the Xpac released and the 20th rewards are fixed (Patch 1) but the counters are broken. I'm just not taking any chances until they clean up this garbage. I also hold no hope in GM's or Customer Service helping if something goes wrong.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    But reading is hard.

    Bashing Turbine and jumping on the hate bandwagon is easy.
    Except Tolero flat out says that anything other than CITW will not be fixed. So all the people, like me, who were just a few runs from a list on VON or ADQ are SOL. This shows a contemptible lack of empathy for their customers. There are numerous things they could do, as a show of good faith, to compensate for it even if it is not technologically possible to fix it outright. But they don't even want to invest the effort to make it right.

    I am flabbergasted that you are still defending Turbine on this. They pushed out a poorly-tested new system AS PART OF A PATCH (something any competent software developer just does not do) even though there are CURRENTLY NO PLANS to utilize it. It's ridiculous on every level. It's indefensible. It's by far the most idiotic, destructive decision Turbine has ever made.
    Last edited by djl; 09-01-2013 at 11:56 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    Man the quest completion list is so long these days. It would be much easier on the eyes if it was located in its own window on the inventory tab or character sheet.

    Idea: Make a Saga Page (info sheet) that a character can pull up while away from the Saga NPCs. That way they can see and track progress without running to the NPC. You could put a tab on the saga page to track completions.
    Somebody may or may not have brought this up, but the "easier" thing to do would be to just add a counter to the quest log. They could do it just like the epic level indicator, or just add another column for completions.

  14. #34
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default Doesn't Care?

    Dunno, sure looks to me like Turbine doesn't care.

    Long time veteran players have been complaining forever that they'd rather see more bugs fixed than constant new content that makes radical changes to the game and breaks tons of stuff that was working fine.

    I'll believe they care when they start focusing on fixing broken stuff instead of pushing big new expansions that just breaks tons more stuff that it'll take months and months to see fixed.

    Still waiting for tons of annoying stuff to get fixed in the game and even waiting for the forums to get fixed so that it emails us on replies... been promised that one for months now...
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  15. #35
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    It was CitW, yes. But that was the day the Xpac released and the 20th rewards are fixed (Patch 1) but the counters are broken. I'm just not taking any chances until they clean up this garbage. I also hold no hope in GM's or Customer Service helping if something goes wrong.
    thanks for the reply im sitting on 19 citw....... though it shows -1 heroic and 20 epic........I just want to get my 20th's on my raids so I can make progress with my tr'ing this stuff up is slowing me down.

  16. #36
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    So to bring this back into the light. Can anyone who should have been on a 20th reward list but have the count messed up actually try to see if it would give you the list? I thought I read somewhere (but can for the life of me remember where) that it didn't work for someone and all the GM did was roll the completion count back by one.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    Man the quest completion list is so long these days. It would be much easier on the eyes if it was located in its own window on the inventory tab or character sheet.

    Idea: Make a Saga Page (info sheet) that a character can pull up while away from the Saga NPCs. That way they can see and track progress without running to the NPC. You could put a tab on the saga page to track completions.
    Agreed. Should have just been added to the compendium.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  18. #38
    Community Member Hadesborne's Avatar
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    One quote from the other thread:

    "Like many here I have run DQ in only epic difficulty and only after MotU and my completions say heroic. Also because I read this post and thought that the issue was only with CITW, So what I do? I run my 20th WDQ in hopes of finally getting a torc that never seems to drop for me. What I got was random loot.

    I put in a ticket, GM closed it without talking to me saying to put in a bug report.

    What is being done about this for people like me who thought they were safe and are now effected because there was no message about normal raids being borked?



    Theft . Judaah . UselessPiker . Khyber"

    Another quote:

    "Have you told your GMs that they're supposed to be working with the CITW players to resolve this? My husband, (toon name Jhm), had his counter showing as 1 heroic, 18 epic, and ran it after seeing that if it does mess up the end list, it would be dealt with. His ticket was responded to by Rothgar, who told him the GMs could do nothing about it, that he should take the end reward, and when his logs showed 1 heroic, 19 epic, all he did was roll back a completion so he could try again! The really sad thing is, he didn't even change the heroic so it would show 19 epic, it again says 1 heroic, 18 epic.

    Making someone repeat a raid in order to get the right list isn't very helpful, especially when the 'fix' didn't change what was causing the error in the first place.

    So is this really all that is being done, and now he is just supposed to forego raiding until this is fixed in an upcoming patch, or is there something else that he should do?



    Jolyma, Cannedjoly, Jolymassoul, Internetmyth on Argonessen"

    So yeah, are you SURE the raid counters are correct?

    I, for one, won't be doing any raids until this has been fixed, and confirmed on the forums to be completely fixed by a spokesperson for Turbine.
    That is IF I decide to actually play a game that is run by a company that doesn't give a **** about me.

    I work in a restaurant. If one of my crew makes a mistake on an order and they call me out and I say "Ok, well here's what I am going to do, I am going to replace the fries that were cold, but the Burger that was burnt and the wilting salad will have to be eaten by you anyways" I would expect them to ask for a refund, walk out immediately, never come back, and also tell everyone else, they know, NEVER to eat at my restaurant. But I don't do that. I fix EVERYTHING that is broken. EVERYTIME. Why? because I care about my customers. It's that simple.

    So, to the people who think Turbine cares. Apply their decisions made, AFTER their incompetence, to your field and see if that's what would happen in your business.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by My2Cents View Post
    if they get a +8 or +9 item with some good suffixes
    Of course, they aren't getting those either.

  20. #40
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Not trying to be a jerk, but seriously, what are you talking about? How are they not fixing it? They have already said that the 20th lists are working, we have confirmation from players, it's just the counter doesn't display properly. I guess I'm missing it....where is the issue outside of the counter displaying incorrectly?

    Also, played the game the past four years, right at the start of F2P, but also played in beta way back when. I agree that the "vets" are a wide range of people, and some of us don't raid, so don't generalize.
    well the 20th list didnt work for me, yes I was at 19, ran 20th elminster had trash loot. was at 19, then after the changes it read heroic -1 epic 20 for citw, according to cordovans post that should be counted as 19 so silly me thinking well it should be fixed I ran the raid. Yeah im posting about it a lot because I don't want more people to make the same mistake I made.

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