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  1. #1
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Default Shadar-kai chain damage

    Are there any ways to increase or improve the chain attacks' damage?

    i.e. are they affected by your stats (DC aside), by deadly, sneak attack enhancements, improved crit, meta magics etc.

    any idea?
    Last edited by Lauf; 08-31-2013 at 02:28 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    Are there any ways to increase or improve the chain attacks' damage?

    i.e. are they affected by your stats (DC aside), by deadly, sneak attack enhancements, improved crit, meta magics etc.

    any idea?
    currently, I doubt it. DC is rather low too, usually elite mobs at level evade it easily unless you go full dex. Sneak attack has said to be a bug with the enemy chains, tehy arent supposed to get sneak attack damage but currently do, so I doubt that effects it. as for improved crit I doubt.

    from the look of it, with how its made to be used, it seems to be making a personal trap with yourself at the center. (honesly the 10ppr arent much of a benefit, and once they remove the ability to sneak and use it its uses will go down to pretty much useless since the amount of agro it pulls is deadly for the type of character its meant to be used by.

    And the damage does suck (its 1d6+4 damage plus 1d6 additional damage per level, so 29d6+1d10+14 at the current cap, so max of 198 damage, which may seem like alot but with the mobs HP up in the tens of thousands, and the CD of the ability it is too long to make it mroe then an extra attack every once in awhile)sure its basically a longer range cleave, but even for a class that doesnt like having agro the damage should atleast put a dent into the mobs HP. the rogues at that level will probably have about the same sneak attack (which doesnt apply to our chains) and cna attack alot quicker, so they'd actually be doing more damage by attacking normally then by using the chain.

    DC will be a joke once you are higher lvl (its what level+dexmod? so reasonally at 28 its probably going to be about 41 or so, which is uselss for a good bit of EH stuff).

    whilring chain is nicer, but the 10ppr doesnt really help, and the bursts should be constnatly hit rather then every 4-5 sec

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    DC is higher than a max level spell.

    Max level spell has a base DC of 19, +5 item, +3 feats = 27 + caster stat.

    Chain is 28 + dex casting stat.

    So if the DC is worthless, so are all spells with best in slot gear and epic spell focus.

    DC is fine.

  4. #4
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    DC is higher than a max level spell.

    Max level spell has a base DC of 19, +5 item, +3 feats = 27 + caster stat.

    Chain is 28 + dex casting stat.

    So if the DC is worthless, so are all spells with best in slot gear and epic spell focus.

    DC is fine.
    So a rogue should max dex plus con like a caster maxes casting stat and con nothing else is really needed for a caster.

    To be a good rogue starting stats are never maxed and have to split between int, dex, con, and such. So if want a strength based rogue or anything else just choose another race.

    If 41 is what most are achieving that is way to low. Only way I see getting a good dc is pure dex build and dump everything else but con. So a gimped rogue is fine to you?
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    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    DC is higher than a max level spell.

    Max level spell has a base DC of 19, +5 item, +3 feats = 27 + caster stat.

    Chain is 28 + dex casting stat.

    So if the DC is worthless, so are all spells with best in slot gear and epic spell focus.

    DC is fine.
    LOL your information is missing some things. Spell DCs can get alot higher than that. You are not factoring in PRE bonuses, ED bonuses, or past life bonuses. Also I think someone calculated the current max int (for a wizard spell) as 76 sustainable not including store pot or completionist, so +33 to your 27. You can get spell DCs quite a bit higher than chain DCs.
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    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    So a rogue should max dex plus con like a caster maxes casting stat and con nothing else is really needed for a caster.

    To be a good rogue starting stats are never maxed and have to split between int, dex, con, and such. So if want a strength based rogue or anything else just choose another race.

    If 41 is what most are achieving that is way to low. Only way I see getting a good dc is pure dex build and dump everything else but con. So a gimped rogue is fine to you?
    If you're looking to use a dex based DC ability, then you should probably be looking into getting your dex as high as possible. Unfortunately dex based rogues don't have as many DC type tools as a cha based sorc or int based wizard so the question as to whether or not going dex based would actually work out well would be debatable. If I were looking to make the best chain attack I could, I'd be silly to expect a str based toon to be as good at it as a dex based one just as I'd never expect a str based monk to be as good at stunning as a wis based one. The actual usefulness of a maxed out chain attack, even on a hyper dex rogue is still questionable. Can the DC's even get up high enough to matter? You may be no better off than a str rogue anyway.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    I'm sure it's garbage in epics but it's awesome in heroics and lots of fun.
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    Community Member jaegarnel's Avatar
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    The only use I can see is for grabbing the aggro of crowds if you make a Shadar Kai fighter or paladin tank with a rogue splash.

    Go first, let the mobs gather around you, use chain to keep most of them hitting you while the rest of the group takes on one at a time.


    I haven't actually used the ability (I don't even own Shadar Kai), so I'm not sure if that'd actually work, but it's the main use I can see for an AoE attack centered on you that grants you some PRR.
    Can the chain attack even be used with a shield equipped?

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    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaegarnel View Post
    The only use I can see is for grabbing the aggro of crowds if you make a Shadar Kai fighter or paladin tank with a rogue splash.

    Go first, let the mobs gather around you, use chain to keep most of them hitting you while the rest of the group takes on one at a time.
    In heroic, with a half-decent dex, it knocks just about everything down. It also doesn't break invisibility so even if you are drawing a ton of aggro, they rarely hit you before they're dead or knocked down.

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    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I have made two shadar kai. One is an acrobat and combines the chain dex based AOE knock down with the dex based qstaff aoe knock down. It works, for me, quite well. The other is a dex/int based mechanic/artificer. I use the chain to knock things down before I back off and shoot some more. Again, it works fine for me. I haven't getten them to epics yet though.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    If you're looking to use a dex based DC ability, then you should probably be looking into getting your dex as high as possible. Unfortunately dex based rogues don't have as many DC type tools as a cha based sorc or int based wizard so the question as to whether or not going dex based would actually work out well would be debatable. If I were looking to make the best chain attack I could, I'd be silly to expect a str based toon to be as good at it as a dex based one just as I'd never expect a str based monk to be as good at stunning as a wis based one. The actual usefulness of a maxed out chain attack, even on a hyper dex rogue is still questionable. Can the DC's even get up high enough to matter? You may be no better off than a str rogue anyway.
    Seriously, my reply was to someone trying to compare rogue dc's to caster. Read to what I replied to, was stating basics for him because he had no clue due to what he posted. I could of gone on to a big explanation and build advice like you but stuck to basics. That was all that was needed for what I replied to.

    So replying to my post with a drawn out explanation wasn't necessary.
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    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    Seriously, my reply was to someone trying to compare rogue dc's to caster. Read to what I replied to, was stating basics for him because he had no clue due to what he posted. I could of gone on to a big explanation and build advice like you but stuck to basics. That was all that was needed for what I replied to.

    So replying to my post with a drawn out explanation wasn't necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    I have made two shadar kai. One is an acrobat and combines the chain dex based AOE knock down with the dex based qstaff aoe knock down. It works, for me, quite well. The other is a dex/int based mechanic/artificer. I use the chain to knock things down before I back off and shoot some more. Again, it works fine for me. I haven't getten them to epics yet though.
    I rolled up a bizzarro Zombie Kai. Cleric 10/Rogue 2/Wiz 3.

    Go into the middle of the room while invis, cast lesser death aura, and start swinging that whip like a it's a wet tee shirt at spring break. If anything survives that, I finish off with the cleric a negative engergy burst SLA. Everything dead and I'm back to full health.


    Not going to set the world aflame with that build, but it has been interesting.

  14. #14
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Can I get you a Snickers?
    Sorry if came off as annoyed. Just tired of people not reading posts fully or what they replied to and making assumptions that the person (not just me) doesn't know something then gives a long blown explanation in reply to post that wasn't needed.

    Anyways back on topic. Haven't played mine in epic yet, but the chains in heroic are awesome. In epics can see though that they will be useless other than grabbing attention I don't want or need on a rogue.

    So I agree there needs to be a way to boost it with a item or make vertigo or combat mastery work with it on trip effect and such might bring it up to EH status at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    Seriously, my reply was to someone trying to compare rogue dc's to caster. Read to what I replied to, was stating basics for him because he had no clue due to what he posted. I could of gone on to a big explanation and build advice like you but stuck to basics. That was all that was needed for what I replied to.

    So replying to my post with a drawn out explanation wasn't necessary.
    I have a sorc with 0 past lives, in Shiradi, with 0 ED bonuses to spell DCs, with 1 dc from my fire school.

    I solo'd EH What Goes Up (lvl 28 quest, using cleric hire) at 25 using mostly reflex DC damage spells (meteor, energy burst, and FB SLA) with a +17 bonus from charisma, 3 DC from feats, 0 DC from Shiradi, 1 DC from enhancements, and only a +2 evo focus item, no ship buffs or pots. So my reflex DC was exactly equal what a chain attack could be for an equal level/gear rogue, and will be the same at 28 as well.

    So I know that chains with a high dex work fine. Chains and fireball are both reflex saves, of course you can compare them. It's the same mob save.

    They aren't going to make reflex saves so high that spells stop working. And since they won't make them so spells stop working, and chains can have the same DC as spells...
    Last edited by Tilomere; 09-02-2013 at 09:36 PM.

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    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    I rolled an Assassin, can't recall the stats at the moment, but my dex is fairly high, and I can't recall seeing an evade against it yet. I've seen a few mobs take, like, 2 dmg, but I haven't seen evades.


    I recall that the criticism of the long duration whip about not being able to move initially gave me doubts, but the chain works rather well and generally makes up for the squishiness of rogues when there's too many mobs to assassinate your way out.

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    Default No it cant be enhanced in anyway....

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    I rolled an Assassin, can't recall the stats at the moment, but my dex is fairly high, and I can't recall seeing an evade against it yet. I've seen a few mobs take, like, 2 dmg, but I haven't seen evades.


    I recall that the criticism of the long duration whip about not being able to move initially gave me doubts, but the chain works rather well and generally makes up for the squishiness of rogues when there's too many mobs to assassinate your way out.
    shadar kai is awful at epic levels... a completely pointless rogue class. The chain attack is underpowered and cannot be enhanced in anyway thru EDs or any other way for that matter. Also the inability to heal during the 20 second attack is the most moronic concept Ive ever heard of. Not to mention the fact that no rogue should really want to be hitting all mobs at once, just to **** off everything in sight. The chain attack would have much better on the PDK. Dumb concept. Not worth a second of your time until they fix it. Halflings and drow would make far superior rogues. And BTW whats the point of a toon starting at 15 to have an effective chain attack for 1-2 levels?

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    Default the one good thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    In heroic, with a half-decent dex, it knocks just about everything down. It also doesn't break invisibility so even if you are drawing a ton of aggro, they rarely hit you before they're dead or knocked down.
    the one and ONLY good thing about that chain attack atm is that it does not break invis...this is NOT intended and will be changed...so the shadar kai will get even more lame pretty soon

  19. #19
    Community Member hucka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riskyraines View Post
    the one and ONLY good thing about that chain attack atm is that it does not break invis...this is NOT intended and will be changed...so the shadar kai will get even more lame pretty soon
    does it break stealth?

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    Default as far as I know it WILL be...

    Quote Originally Posted by hucka View Post
    does it break stealth?
    it is supposed to break all forms of stealth as far as I know

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