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Thread: Argo is dying

  1. #161
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Sure, not everyone does it the same way. That said, they (Turbine/WB) have to have some sort of idea for the subsets of their player base and some back-of-napkin ideas about what motivates them. I'd be curious where they get that data from - surveys / polling?
    I would bet most likely QA Play testers, but also they have several former DDO live gamers on staff, that means they could be asked to chime in what they think the data means as well, which begs the question of what kind of gamer were they.

    I mean, I really would have expected FoS as a former gamer to know better then in invalidate named and raid gear, given the rarity of it's dropping and it's place of importance among many players. But, I was very wrong about that. So, that makes me wonder what kind of gamer he was, what mindset is he filtering the data through.

  2. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Just as a final comment on this TR vs. endgame stuff... please understand that those of us who do not buy in to endgame don't because the loot is never worth it.
    I run guild raids because it's social and fun. If there's loot, great, but I run plenty of guild raids where I don't need loot, xp, or anything. Just because it's fun.

  3. #163
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Their data is not as unlimited as you may think and even more then that, they most likely only have statistics which do not tell them why players are doing what they are doing, which means anything they conclude from that data is even more limited by their own personal scope as either a former-player or a non-player.

    As for strengthening, well that remains to be seen, the game was in distinct decline for the last year after MotuD, but this new expansion has seen the level raise, so we shall see what the future brings.

    If it does great things for the game, that is wonderful, but that does not make me as a player feel any better that the loot I farmed and ground for got invalidated.
    Two weeks have passed since Shadowfell went live, and the LFMs are just as dead if not moreso than they were before.

    The nature of the lootgen changes is to blame for this. Getting the items you want is so easy now, and once you've done the new quests a few times on EE there's nothing left to do. Sure, you could grind for the tiny chance to get +11 items, but those are so extremely rare so I'm not sure it justifies the effort. It has to spawn as ML 28 and have wondrous craftsmanship on it.

    Also, people are morons so you are seeing lots of LFMs for MOTU content that exclude lvl26+ toons, even though THERE IS NO GODDAMN PENALTY for having them.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I run guild raids because it's social and fun. If there's loot, great, but I run plenty of guild raids where I don't need loot, xp, or anything. Just because it's fun.
    I understand this, and I think this is the way DDO is moving. They'll leave raids for people that enjoy them but move the carrot somewhere else.

  5. #165
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I understand this, and I think this is the way DDO is moving. They'll leave raids for people that enjoy them but move the carrot somewhere else.
    And where exactly is that carrot now? Random loot? That's a recipe for fail.

  6. #166
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I understand this, and I think this is the way DDO is moving. They'll leave raids for people that enjoy them but move the carrot somewhere else.
    Which makes no sense. Raids, because of the timer mechanic, are one of the biggest timesinks in an MMO. And with the availability of Bypasses, it presents an excellent opportunity for Turbine to make money.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    And where exactly is that carrot now? Random loot? That's a recipe for fail.
    We're obviously in some state of transition. Where we end up, I have no idea.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Which makes no sense. Raids, because of the timer mechanic, are one of the biggest timesinks in an MMO. And with the availability of Bypasses, it presents an excellent opportunity for Turbine to make money.
    It doesn't make sense to you because this is the way you do things. If Turbine's data shows that a small percentage of the game population raids and buys bypasses, and that it's always been this way, then it doesn't make sense for the carrot to be there. It makes sense to move it to where the majority of the player base spends its time.

  9. #169
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    We're obviously in some state of transition. Where we end up, I have no idea.
    We're heading towards the iceberg and the navigator thinks a random course is the way to go.

  10. #170
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    It doesn't make sense to you because this is the way you do things. If Turbine's data shows that a small percentage of the game population raids and buys bypasses, and that it's always been this way, then it doesn't make sense for the carrot to be there. It makes sense to move it to where the majority of the player base spends its time.
    However every single raider I've ever talked to has been a major spender at least up till motu. Most the casual players aren't. The only group that seems to spend more is the speed tr's because they buy xp potions many times. When you get rid raids you get rid of some big spenders. Not to mention those that just leave, guild population is way down, one of the reasons why when I talk to some of the people that have left that I know is that ..... there are no raids anymore. Maybe there are a lot more casuals I'm willing to buy that. But on top of all the money stuff some of the people I know that left because of no raids were also major pug leaders also leading people thru different quests and teaching new people the ropes. No end game raiding will eventually kill any mmo that isn't pvp based.

  11. #171
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    It doesn't make sense to you because this is the way you do things. If Turbine's data shows that a small percentage of the game population raids and buys bypasses, and that it's always been this way, then it doesn't make sense for the carrot to be there. It makes sense to move it to where the majority of the player base spends its time.

    You are drawing the same wrong conclusion Rowan did.

    People stopped raiding because the Feather out-dated all the loot. That is the reason.

  12. #172
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    Why pugging is down?

    Because the game was not set up around pick up group play. It rewards groups for good individual play and punishes them for bad individual play.

    To be quite frank, many of the things that turn DDO players off to other games are mostly there to mitigate the harm that grouping can bring. Replace knowledge and skill with grind and it is easy to see how throwing more warm bodies in generally speeds things up but rarely slows them down. DDO, from bottom to top, incorporates a lot of things other games reserve for end-game raid progressions. From twink gear to character builds, the game is designed to stratify players into small groups of like ability, both player and character.

  13. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    People stopped raiding because the Feather out-dated all the loot. That is the reason.
    That's a side-effect of the real reason: The raids themselves got outdated. I'd bet money that raids were way more popular when the cap was 20 and there were 9 endgame raids. By the time eGH was released we were down to 2 endgame raids, so of course there was less raiding. Now with U19 we're down to no endgame raids.

    The fix is obvious and will never happen, even less so now that the cap was raised to 28. If it were still 25 they could fairly easily revamp the raid loot from 20 endgame (ToD, ADQ, VON, Chrono, LoB, MA, etc...) to have viable ML24 versions and then endgame raiding would have been a vibrant community of big spenders.

  14. #174
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That's a side-effect of the real reason: The raids themselves got outdated. I'd bet money that raids were way more popular when the cap was 20 and there were 9 endgame raids. By the time eGH was released we were down to 2 endgame raids, so of course there was less raiding. Now with U19 we're down to no endgame raids.

    The fix is obvious and will never happen, even less so now that the cap was raised to 28. If it were still 25 they could fairly easily revamp the raid loot from 20 endgame (ToD, ADQ, VON, Chrono, LoB, MA, etc...) to have viable ML24 versions and then endgame raiding would have been a vibrant community of big spenders.
    People still ran reaver and to a lesser degree Titan because there were items you could only get from those raids.

    And yes, this will never get fixed because Turbine and the chorus of fanbois don't comprehend the issue.

  15. #175
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We're heading towards the iceberg and the navigator thinks a random course is the way to go.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saalGKY7ifU

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  16. #176
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That's a side-effect of the real reason: The raids themselves got outdated.
    Which brings us back to the original point: The only way to outdate a raid is to outdate it's loot.

  17. #177
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Which brings us back to the original point: The only way to outdate a raid is to outdate it's loot.
    It's sad too with how easy it would be to bring us back to a good raiding scene.

    The easy
    Epic'd raid (such as dq, von, etc are updated for each level increase to allways be max level, this fits the idea of a heroic/epic raid) The loot is brought up to snuff each cap increase as well. Some like the esos wouldn't need much, other things would need more.

    The time consuming but easy as it's not new content
    Epic shroud, tod, abbot
    These would take more time but it's not designing something new, it's boosting cr, hp, etc and updating the loot, it would take time but by no means be hard. (hox and vod should probably be in this catagory too)

  18. #178
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The fix is obvious and will never happen, even less so now that the cap was raised to 28. If it were still 25 they could fairly easily revamp the raid loot from 20 endgame (ToD, ADQ, VON, Chrono, LoB, MA, etc...) to have viable ML24 versions and then endgame raiding would have been a vibrant community of big spenders.
    The fix in my opinion is still very easy to do. Do not simply increase the gear to higher levels though as that will kill the raids for those who like twink gear. Rather give Epic difficulty to those lacking Epic, and improve the Epic gear for those that exist.

    The reason it will never happen however has absolutely nothing to do with the level cap. Don't delude yourselves. The reason is quite simply that most people already own those packs and thus Turbine wouldn't be able to make any money in that direction. Raid timers would be the only income they would see.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 09-02-2013 at 07:19 PM.
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  19. #179
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's sad too with how easy it would be to bring us back to a good raiding scene.

    The easy
    Epic'd raid (such as dq, von, etc are updated for each level increase to allways be max level, this fits the idea of a heroic/epic raid) The loot is brought up to snuff each cap increase as well. Some like the esos wouldn't need much, other things would need more.

    The time consuming but easy as it's not new content
    Epic shroud, tod, abbot
    These would take more time but it's not designing something new, it's boosting cr, hp, etc and updating the loot, it would take time but by no means be hard. (hox and vod should probably be in this catagory too)
    Maybe if they could charge *extra* for access to the new version of the old raid they might consider doing it?

  20. #180
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Which brings us back to the original point: The only way to outdate a raid is to outdate it's loot.
    You could tattoo this on the inside of some people's eyelids and they still won't get it.

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