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Thread: Argo is dying

  1. #61
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    Considering the last two days worth of PUGs I joined largely couldn't be bothered to read party chat or listen and follow directions, I wouldn't shed a single tear if those players migrated elsewhere. Sorry if ruined anyone's dreams of grouping, but I got things to do. Wasting time on stupid didn't make the list.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I personally though have a problem with the playerbase that have level 25 characters that they are just not interested in doing epic elites. They use to be interested at least somewhat in doing them, but now they are not really at all.

    Producer Rowan is totally correct in saying that raids are not popular. It is just not raids though it is end game in general. I am not sure what can be done if anything.
    It's about risk(/time/effort/etc) vs. reward.

    Previously you could do for example EE PoP, get lucky and loot Dream Visor, and be happy about getting slightly better gear to tackle the harder EE:s. Now you just run pretty much any random quest to get a better lootgen-item faster, so why bother with the EE:s. Or endgame.

    Sure, the drop rates were always bad, you practically never got things you wanted, but there was the elusive carrot. Get lucky, and you get something not everybody has. But the carrot existed. Now it's just a waste of time with more effort for less gains. No carrot, not interested.

    And challenge? Sure, that's all nice and dandy when you have enough ED exp to have all 3 twists unlocked, let alone a twist higher than level 1. But, while that grind is going on, doing EE just isn't for me. Enable me being in a good destiny while throwing exp to another? EE, here I come! But barring that, I'll just either TR the toons or park them unused but for the bi-weekly raids, to eventually get to 20th so I can start playing with them again (read: tr). The ED exp is such a horrible grind, that most people (myself included) don't really go for the actual hard content most of the time. See above: effort vs. reward.

    Short term I'm sure Turbine has some logic behind the loot changes, however flawed. The average players get better gear to match the "pros" to play with them. But, they went so far overboard that the short term looks to be measured in weeks, not months or years. And soon more and more of the top people playing for the challenge leave. And stop leading raids. And stop giving hints during the raids they used to take part in. After that it's just a matter of time before more and more others follow. Nobody actually leads raids, and even the casual players will notice and look for other games / other entertainment.

    TR is fun for the most part, but even so, an active endgame is something to keep me motivated. Even if it's just the thought of 'after this life I'll do that', it'll keep me going. Strip endgame, and the 'why bother' follows to the alt / TR projects too.

  3. #63
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    I dont understand why people want to grind out all their EDs on one life anyway. Seems nonsensical and counterproductive to me.

    For example, I am now in the process of levelling up my first Epic character, first-life. (Yes, I am the world's slowest ddo player ). His main class is Ranger, so I'm in the Shiradi Champion Destiny. After I cap that one, I'll probably move on to Primal Avatar or Fury of the Wild. And then maybe Juggernaut and/or Shadowdancer (the character does have 2 rogue levels, so it...kinda....sorta...makes sense lol)

    Anyway, after I cap some or all of those EDs, I'm done with ED work for this life. If I want to cap Magister, for example, I'll wait till I TR and take a Wizard life. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all why someone would want to grind out all that ED XP while playing a class that has noting to do with (or gets hardly any or no benefit at all from) the ED they're trying to cap.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

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    The LFM panel has been a little slow lately. I don't do a huge amount of puggin' but I do keep an eye on it to see if something interesting pops up. In the circles that I tend to run in, many have grown tired of the new Xpack already and gone back to Tr'ing with their semi-static groups. Any Xpack related content I run is strictly with friends/channel/guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    I dont understand why people want to grind out all their EDs on one life anyway. Seems nonsensical and counterproductive to me.

    For example, I am now in the process of levelling up my first Epic character, first-life. (Yes, I am the world's slowest ddo player ). His main class is Ranger, so I'm in the Shiradi Champion Destiny. After I cap that one, I'll probably move on to Primal Avatar or Fury of the Wild. And then maybe Juggernaut and/or Shadowdancer (the character does have 2 rogue levels, so it...kinda....sorta...makes sense lol)

    Anyway, after I cap some or all of those EDs, I'm done with ED work for this life. If I want to cap Magister, for example, I'll wait till I TR and take a Wizard life. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all why someone would want to grind out all that ED XP while playing a class that has noting to do with (or gets hardly any or no benefit at all from) the ED they're trying to cap.
    It may have to do with your preferred pace of playing the game. Slow and steady is one way to go. It's not my cup o' tea but I tend to have a higher pace for everything I do (even in real life). One of the main reasons people slam ED's hard is to unlock fate points and thus be able to unlock higher tier and better twists. Quite often twists are more important than the actual ED your in. And to get the max of 4-2-1 (1 level 4 twist, 1 level 2 and 1 level 1 for those who don't understand my shorthand) twists takes 18 fate points, or even 19 if you go 4-3. That's pretty much all of the ED at level 5.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 09-01-2013 at 08:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Producer Rowan is totally correct in saying that raids are not popular. It is just not raids though it is end game in general. I am not sure what can be done if anything.
    Couldn't agree more. You can't really have end game in pve games. Even if they add in a really hard new raid with uber loot everyone wants....what exactly is the purpose of getting such gear? Your going to farm all the best gear just to be more efficient at farming gear...oh wait...you don't need to farm any more gear because you already have all the best. And the best part, the more time you spend farming the current "best" gear the more you are going to cry when in 3 months or 6 months from now they introduce a new wave of best gear.

    I'd be farming and grinding like a fiend if they did some work with pvp, so I actually had a reason to get the best gear, but currently its just pointless for me to bother. I'd rather just tr. Haven't capped a toon since they upped the cap to 25. Haven't bought any of the packs from forgotten realms on. I will eventually...its just currently I'm not seeing any point at all in getting all the way to level cap just to realize I have nothing to do, I'd rather just tr again, its what my ultimate choice is for keeping myself entertained, and when I'm bored of tr'ing I just take a break for a while. I'm so glad I skipped out of the entire epic GH farm though lol...saved myself hours upon hours of farming for those cool +damage goggles and now I can pick up something better from random loot lol.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    For example, I am now in the process of levelling up my [...] Ranger, so I'm in the Shiradi Champion Destiny. After I cap that one, I'll probably move on to Primal Avatar or Fury of the Wild. And then maybe Juggernaut and/or Shadowdancer (the character does have 2 rogue levels, so it...kinda....sorta...makes sense lol)

    Anyway, after I cap some or all of those EDs, I'm done with ED work for this life. If I want to cap Magister, for example, I'll wait till I TR and take a Wizard life. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all why someone would want to grind out all that ED XP while playing a class that has noting to do with (or gets hardly any or no benefit at all from) the ED they're trying to cap.
    By contrast, it doesn't make any sense to me at all why anyone would want to do a wizard life on a ranger. I have a ranger, and he has done 2 lives, both ranger, and currently sits at 25 fairly well geared and flagged for any raids I might want to do.

    It would never occur to me to run him through a wizard life. If it did occur to me, I would dismiss the idea out of hand. I have my wizard for when I want to run a wizard. (Who is also second life, geared up, sitting at 25 ready to run whatever raids.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    I dont understand why people want to grind out all their EDs on one life anyway. Seems nonsensical and counterproductive to me.

    For example, I am now in the process of levelling up my first Epic character, first-life. (Yes, I am the world's slowest ddo player ). His main class is Ranger, so I'm in the Shiradi Champion Destiny. After I cap that one, I'll probably move on to Primal Avatar or Fury of the Wild. And then maybe Juggernaut and/or Shadowdancer (the character does have 2 rogue levels, so it...kinda....sorta...makes sense lol)

    Anyway, after I cap some or all of those EDs, I'm done with ED work for this life. If I want to cap Magister, for example, I'll wait till I TR and take a Wizard life. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all why someone would want to grind out all that ED XP while playing a class that has noting to do with (or gets hardly any or no benefit at all from) the ED they're trying to cap.
    Haha I hear ya man. I've been on the slow but steady quest for completionist, and found I could do about 1 destiny per life while farming tokens for a heart. I'm pretty sure I'll have all my destinies capped before I ever hit level cap again, and the best part is I didn't have to sit in RB for hundreds of runs while my eyeballs bleed its so boring, and I can minimize the amount of destinies I'm leveling with a class that has absolutely no synergy for it.

    I hear all these complaints of destiny farming being awful and painful, yet the slow and steady method of mixing it up with some tr's can pretty much remove all destiny grind from the equation, and unless you already have an insane amount of tr's you can benefit from extra past life bonuses as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    By contrast, it doesn't make any sense to me at all why anyone would want to do a wizard life on a ranger. I have a ranger, and he has done 2 lives, both ranger, and currently sits at 25 fairly well geared and flagged for any raids I might want to do.

    It would never occur to me to run him through a wizard life. If it did occur to me, I would dismiss the idea out of hand. I have my wizard for when I want to run a wizard. (Who is also second life, geared up, sitting at 25 ready to run whatever raids.)
    Because one day, you might wait to wake up, and look at yourself in the mirror, and just think to yourself "That's right...who's the stud with a ddo completionist toon"

    Maybe some day they'll make it an auto grant feat after you unlock it:P

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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post

    I hear all these complaints of destiny farming being awful and painful, yet the slow and steady method of mixing it up with some tr's can pretty much remove all destiny grind from the equation, and unless you already have an insane amount of tr's you can benefit from extra past life bonuses as well.
    It is painful and dreaded, for me at least. But since I tend to immediately TR right as I hit 20, there is usually no way for me to level up an ED. I could go further than 20 and do it, but for me, it's wasted effort. I'd much rather get my lives done, then level ED's while I am leveling epic XP. Especially now that it takes seemingly a gazillion XP to get to 28 (and there's so little feeling of "advancement" from 20+ ie no AP's or skill points to spend) it helps the miles tick off a little easier.

    And yes, I know my views are a little cockeyed from mainstream views, but that's ok.

  10. #70
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    I dont understand why people want to grind out all their EDs on one life anyway. Seems nonsensical and counterproductive to me.

    For example, I am now in the process of levelling up my first Epic character, first-life. (Yes, I am the world's slowest ddo player ). His main class is Ranger, so I'm in the Shiradi Champion Destiny. After I cap that one, I'll probably move on to Primal Avatar or Fury of the Wild. And then maybe Juggernaut and/or Shadowdancer (the character does have 2 rogue levels, so it...kinda....sorta...makes sense lol)

    Anyway, after I cap some or all of those EDs, I'm done with ED work for this life. If I want to cap Magister, for example, I'll wait till I TR and take a Wizard life. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all why someone would want to grind out all that ED XP while playing a class that has noting to do with (or gets hardly any or no benefit at all from) the ED they're trying to cap.
    Because not every toon is going to be a completionist. Some toons are a melee dps toon that they keep for raiding etc lets say. So grinding that xp is prefererable to adding 8.6 million xp to run a wizard life level up the arcane sphere then lets say re-level as a fighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Because not every toon is going to be a completionist. Some toons are a melee dps toon that they keep for raiding etc lets say. So grinding that xp is prefererable to adding 8.6 million xp to run a wizard life level up the arcane sphere then lets say re-level as a fighter.
    I understand WHY. The disconnect comes from the idea that people are building toons to grind two quests in the game. It's just a different playstyle is all. For some of us, keeping a toon at cap really means the toon no longer gets played because there's no point in playing anything once you've capped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    For some of us, keeping a toon at cap really means the toon no longer gets played because there's no point in playing anything once you've capped.
    I enjoy running guild raids, and also enjoy having multiple characters to choose from depending on what that particular raid group needs.

    We're all different, of course. If I only had a single character and was working on a completionist, I would absolutely do one destiny per life, capping that class's primary destiny each life and then TRing. I would plan out my completionist life order based on the the destiny map, trying to frontload the most beneficial past lives first. I absolutely, without question see the merit to this kind of plan, and it sounds quite fun. But it's not for me.

    The way I play the game is that I have "1 of each": an arcane, a divine, a thf melee, and a twf melee. I rolled up a second THF melee recently, and made him a tactical fighter to sufficiently differentiate him from my original thf guy.

    First I capped them all, and keep them all at cap for guild raids. I am constantly tring one of them, only one, at a time depending on which kind of life I'm in the mood to do, and (almost) always into the same build. This is how they are all at least second life, with only the cleric so far being a third life. (He did a single wizard life because that past life is simply too good to pass up.)

    Surely the appeal of this approach is as understandable to others, just like the completionist track where you do the appropriate destiny each life is understandable to me. Maybe once I finish off my fighter I'll start the completionist track. Who knows.

  13. #73
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I understand WHY. The disconnect comes from the idea that people are building toons to grind two quests in the game. It's just a different playstyle is all. For some of us, keeping a toon at cap really means the toon no longer gets played because there's no point in playing anything once you've capped.
    Do you people really only play one toon?

    I'm sorry, leveling up a Wizard life on a Ranger to run the Arcane EDs is an retarded waste of time.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I enjoy running guild raids, and also enjoy having multiple characters to choose from depending on what that particular raid group needs.

    We're all different, of course. If I only had a single character and was working on a completionist, I would absolutely do one destiny per life, capping that class's primary destiny each life and then TRing. I would plan out my completionist life order based on the the destiny map, trying to frontload the most beneficial past lives first. I absolutely, without question see the merit to this kind of plan, and it sounds quite fun. But it's not for me.

    The way I play the game is that I have "1 of each": an arcane, a divine, a thf melee, and a twf melee. I rolled up a second THF melee recently, and made him a tactical fighter to sufficiently differentiate him from my original thf guy.

    First I capped them all, and keep them all at cap for guild raids. I am constantly tring one of them, only one, at a time depending on which kind of life I'm in the mood to do, and (almost) always into the same build. This is how they are all at least second life, with only the cleric so far being a third life. (He did a single wizard life because that past life is simply too good to pass up.)

    Surely the appeal of this approach is as understandable to others, just like the completionist track where you do the appropriate destiny each life is understandable to me. Maybe once I finish off my fighter I'll start the completionist track. Who knows.
    I think these people only play one toon, that's the only way their thought process makes any sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I think these people only play one toon, that's the only way their thought process makes any sense.
    Agreed. At the very least, they don't do guild raids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The LFM system might as well be removed from the game at this point. Last night there were several hundred people on my server above level 25 and ZERO LFMs.
    There are so many little things wrong with how LFM works, it's silly ... and they each add just a bit more negative-pressure driving it away from usefulness.

    - Many (most?) people rely on ship buffs regularly. Their expiration timers means that while you may wait for a friend, you will have less incentive and patience to wait for a stranger.
    - DA, flawless bonus, etc.
    - Distance between some areas is kinda long. See my point on waiting, ship buffs and feeling like you're wasting time. I ran some Amrath the other day before I TR'd one of my characters and when I saw the LFM I seriously wondered how long it was going to take everyone to get together. Guild navigators are nice, but it's less a reward simply for the bigger guilds but instead it's actually a barrier that will keep people segregated.

    Plus there's so little reason to run stuff at cap besides just to pass the time. You can farm loot, but working on your EDs is tragically un-fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I think these people only play one toon, that's the only way their thought process makes any sense.
    I play only one toon seriously, but level up multiple toons to test builds for my main. In order to continue to play, I need the feel of accomplishment, and once I hit cap, I no longer feel that. Grinding for gear is a worthless endeavor. I'll join guild raids if they catch me in level, but I refuse to buy bypasses and I play entirely too much to have toons sitting there doing nothing while on timer.

  18. #78
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    It's about risk(/time/effort/etc) vs. reward.

    Previously you could do for example EE PoP, get lucky and loot Dream Visor, and be happy about getting slightly better gear to tackle the harder EE:s. Now you just run pretty much any random quest to get a better lootgen-item faster, so why bother with the EE:s. Or endgame.

    Sure, the drop rates were always bad, you practically never got things you wanted, but there was the elusive carrot. Get lucky, and you get something not everybody has. But the carrot existed. Now it's just a waste of time with more effort for less gains. No carrot, not interested.

    And challenge? Sure, that's all nice and dandy when you have enough ED exp to have all 3 twists unlocked, let alone a twist higher than level 1. But, while that grind is going on, doing EE just isn't for me. Enable me being in a good destiny while throwing exp to another? EE, here I come! But barring that, I'll just either TR the toons or park them unused but for the bi-weekly raids, to eventually get to 20th so I can start playing with them again (read: tr). The ED exp is such a horrible grind, that most people (myself included) don't really go for the actual hard content most of the time. See above: effort vs. reward.

    Short term I'm sure Turbine has some logic behind the loot changes, however flawed. The average players get better gear to match the "pros" to play with them. But, they went so far overboard that the short term looks to be measured in weeks, not months or years. And soon more and more of the top people playing for the challenge leave. And stop leading raids. And stop giving hints during the raids they used to take part in. After that it's just a matter of time before more and more others follow. Nobody actually leads raids, and even the casual players will notice and look for other games / other entertainment.

    TR is fun for the most part, but even so, an active endgame is something to keep me motivated. Even if it's just the thought of 'after this life I'll do that', it'll keep me going. Strip endgame, and the 'why bother' follows to the alt / TR projects too.
    You sound somewhat like me, but not as much so. We are not like many of the players of DDO.

    What I am saying is that there are more and more people that play DDO that do not care at all about the end game. They level to whatever cap is and true reincarnate or level up another character or something like that. Even if the devs gave EE and the end game more carrots like you suggest I do not think that would change the mind of the whole segment of players who could care less about the endgame.

    At one time after the shroud update Tubine actually had an update where there were no quests released just two raids Vision of Destruction and the Hound. The playerbase was very different back then. It was a playerbase that heavily played the end game.

    True Reincarnation has been killing this game for me. The devs plan to continue to cater to this crowd with the new epic true reincarnation coming in update 20. I can almost guarantee that epic true reincarnation will be far more powerful then end game play ever is. It will be a ridiculous incentive to continue on this true reincarnation track.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I play only one toon seriously, but level up multiple toons to test builds for my main. In order to continue to play, I need the feel of accomplishment, and once I hit cap, I no longer feel that.
    Some of us set the bar higher than leveling as an accomplishment. That's slightly harder than tying your shoes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Grinding for gear is a worthless endeavor. I'll join guild raids if they catch me in level, but I refuse to buy bypasses and I play entirely too much to have toons sitting there doing nothing while on timer.
    With the current DDO gear people making stuff worthless every update that's arguable, but running up a wizard life . . . on a ranger (from the above example) to run through the Arcane EDs is the most retarded waste of time I could imagine in DDO.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    And the best part, the more time you spend farming the current "best" gear the more you are going to cry when in 3 months or 6 months from now they introduce a new wave of best gear.
    This here is really the core of the problem. Like it or not, DDO is a 7 year old game, that means it has a veteran player base, and these players have put in a lot of time and effort to have the "best gear" for their level, some them for many tiers of levels.


    It should be a no brainier that if you are going to force your vet players to have go grind all new gear, they are going to question if they are just better off playing a new game if they are have to start all over again anyway.

    I admit a good part of the reason why I came back to DDO was because I thought I already had my gear sorted, so I could just log on and play enjoying my efforts again, hang with friends that I remembered and it I would not have to worry about my gear and could just focus on having fun. doing quests when I wanted to, raiding for the fun of just running with the people I knew, seeing old names and new names like, and not thinking about loot, and worrying about what drops.

    Now, with the changes to loot-gen across all levels, and the changes in named loot making all the older stuff sub-par, really tarnished that.

    I still play and I am still trying to have fun, I mean my friends and the people I know are totally great people, but, it feels lackluster playing again because all that gear I collected over the last 3 years became invalidated, and I was not given a means to upgrade it, I am expected to just re-grind it.

    I don't really have a good way to express how that makes me feel, it's not a good feeling, and it's one of those things that either you can relate to, or you can't.

    It seems the person in charge of loot for DDO, can't.
    Last edited by Ungood; 09-01-2013 at 09:54 PM.

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