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Thread: Argo is dying

  1. #41
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    I am playing on Argo. And I dont think Argo is dying. People just dont post LFMs.

    I solo 80 % of the time. Why? I dont know. I guess its just more enjoyable for me. If I want I can get all optionals and breakables and conquest or just invis zerg through and as a small bonus I can go afk whenever I want. If you state doing all optionals in your LFM...heck you always find one of these five strangers who joined that will be whining why we just dont go stright to the end fight or will die far behind you (if you write zerg).

    When I am in good mood and see LFM of the quest I am not able to complete by myself I just join. If I dont see any I ll just post one and it fill up pretty quickly (few days ago I posted LFM for elite Dreaming dark at level and we were full in less then five mins).

  2. #42
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    There are 750 people online right now in Argo's "Who" panel. That's plenty healthy for Argo compared to the last several months. (Where 400-500 was all too common for East coast primetime on a Weekend night.)

    750 people seems like quite a bit. Just because they don't want to post LFM's doesn't mean the server's dying. DDO needs to advertise this game to soloer's. I've known many people who state they don't play MMO's because they "don't know who's on the other keyboard" or "don't much want to play with strangers". The times of forced grouping are coming to an end but people still haven't caught on. I talked to one person I know who plays Skyrim & said she should try DDO. She told me she doesn't play "those" games because she likes playing alone. I said she should try it out since it's not that bad. Turbine just needs to break the myth & get some of these people to play.

    The game can strive just fine if nobody ever groups. The problem is that many people still don't seem to understand that you don't *have* to group. It's a solo friendly game with great features for grouping. DDO could be in trouble if people don't give it a try & I agree they stand to lose many players if people don't post groups. Many folks who join in are looking for that experience but it's really up to the player base whether there's a good grouping community.

    I've seen many people post over and over that they cannot compromise their play style for others. This is an attitude thing and has nothing to do with server population. When people run into these situations they will be turned off from grouping. This is the real reason I think the LFM's are drying up. 750 is quite enough to post lots of groups - but they're not. It's because people don't want to . I remember a while back some d-bag guild on Argo was bragging about hazing people and griefing raids. Well, this is the result of that sort of behavior.

    People who want vibrant grouping need to step up and post the LFM's, teach new people, etc. Quite blaming Turbine. Turbine has only given people the options to group or run solo. If people chose to run solo, then that's their choice.

  3. #43
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3oN95 View Post
    And what if someone starts playing alone and doesn't know anyone beforehand? If everyone closes ranks, (S)He'll never be able to find anyone to play with regularly, because (S)He's not "within the circle", and never will be.
    I started playing this game with two friends. While we did occasionally join or host pugs, we still largely kept to ourselves. Due to a general lack of interest in the game they left within a year leaving me playing this game by myself. So what did I do? At first I did a lot of soloing, but once I felt confident I knew a few of the commonly run quest chains I began to pug in the hopes of finding others to play with. Over time I began to make friends. I eventually found myself a guild that I am very happy to be a part of. Those guild mates in turn introduced me to user channels.

    I suppose I could have been like so many others and posted a complaint thread. It is so much easier after all to blame everyone else for your inability to find a group. The reality is there is nothing stopping the OP from working his way into a decent guild and user channels. Nothing but himself that is. You don't have to be a great player, just be willing to learn and be friendly.
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  4. #44
    Community Member A3oN95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    750 people seems like quite a bit. Just because they don't want to post LFM's doesn't mean the server's dying. DDO needs to advertise this game to soloer's. I've known many people who state they don't play MMO's because they "don't know who's on the other keyboard" or "don't much want to play with strangers". The times of forced grouping are coming to an end but people still haven't caught on. I talked to one person I know who plays Skyrim & said she should try DDO. She told me she doesn't play "those" games because she likes playing alone. I said she should try it out since it's not that bad. Turbine just needs to break the myth & get some of these people to play.

    The game can strive just fine if nobody ever groups. The problem is that many people still don't seem to understand that you don't *have* to group. It's a solo friendly game with great features for grouping. DDO could be in trouble if people don't give it a try & I agree they stand to lose many players if people don't post groups. Many folks who join in are looking for that experience but it's really up to the player base whether there's a good grouping community.

    I've seen many people post over and over that they cannot compromise their play style for others. This is an attitude thing and has nothing to do with server population. When people run into these situations they will be turned off from grouping. This is the real reason I think the LFM's are drying up. 750 is quite enough to post lots of groups - but they're not. It's because people don't want to . I remember a while back some d-bag guild on Argo was bragging about hazing people and griefing raids. Well, this is the result of that sort of behavior.

    People who want vibrant grouping need to step up and post the LFM's, teach new people, etc. Quite blaming Turbine. Turbine has only given people the options to group or run solo. If people chose to run solo, then that's their choice.
    I think everyone in-game has already understood that you don't *have* to group, actually, has many of the people posting here simply stopped doing it :P. The problem I believe is that, as more and more players start running solo (and as many people already said here, it's just better for them that way, nothing wrong with that, maybe something wrong with a multiplayer game using a system that is detrimental to... multiplaying, but that's for another thread I suppose), it becomes progressively harder for you if you do *want* to solo.

    Above that, I also find it hard to recommend DDO to someone who only wants to play solo, given all the singleplayer titles that give you way more singleplayer content and story quality (The Witcher, Mass Effect, etc), way better content flexibility sometimes (Any modded Elder Scrolls game, even NWN2 if one's into D&D). And none of them requiring internet connection, thus not having lag or connection problems of any kind. But this is kind of subjective I suppose, YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    I started playing this game with two friends. While we did occasionally join or host pugs, we still largely kept to ourselves. Due to a general lack of interest in the game they left within a year leaving me playing this game by myself. So what did I do? At first I did a lot of soloing, but once I felt confident I knew a few of the commonly run quest chains I began to pug in the hopes of finding others to play with. Over time I began to make friends. I eventually found myself a guild that I am very happy to be a part of. Those guild mates in turn introduced me to user channels.

    I suppose I could have been like so many others and posted a complaint thread. It is so much easier after all to blame everyone else for your inability to find a group. The reality is there is nothing stopping the OP from working his way into a decent guild and user channels. Nothing but himself that is. You don't have to be a great player, just be willing to learn and be friendly.
    Your DDO history surprisingly resembles a lot with my own :P. The only difference's that I was never introduced to any private user channel. What's the difference between PuGing and grouping with people from a user channel? Unless it's really restrictive, I suppose you'll be playing with people you don't know anyway, right?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by visibleman View Post
    Weren't the people you know now, unknown before you got to know them?

    This insular attitude makes it very hard for new players to really get into the game. Sure some new players are idiots but that's probably because they are like 10 years old or something. But not every new player is to be avoided but if they don't feel welcome, can't find groups etc, they won't stay.

    This is 50% of why the game is declining. Its not entirely your fault - the other 50% is Turbine ****ing off existing players till they leave.
    A game has to know its audience, and it appears that DDO's audience is into soloing. It is probably best for new players to figure this out early, so that those who agree with this type of play stay and those that don't can leave without investing too much.

    Attempting to change a 7 year-old game's audience is going to be a fail.
    Last edited by jalont; 09-01-2013 at 08:52 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    A game has to now its audience, and it appears that DDO's audience is into soloing. It is probably best for new players to figure this out early, so that those who agree with this type of play stay and those that don't can't leave without investing too much.
    Imho, DDO's audience is into what makes us achieve our character goals faster/easier. When I first played (about 4y ago), that was grouping. In time, with the scaling/xp changes already mentioned before, it started being solo instead.

    We could debate about whether that's a good design choice for a D&D-based massive multiplayer game, given the type of player that franchise may attract, but given some of the previous posts in this thread, it would probably just be classified as ranting and end right there, making a potentially interesting debate kind of pointless.
    Last edited by A3oN95; 09-01-2013 at 08:55 AM.

  7. #47
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    The game is not dying, it's just the player base is evolving.

    A while back there started a huge trend by divines to fuss they are not "healers" and this put a massive demand on all other classes to find ways to run quests and play the game sans a healer, or more to the point, without someone playing a "healer". Some of these staunch supporters of demanding that Divines not be healers, or expected to heal in any manner have went out of their way to be surprisingly petty and vindictive about this as well, and that built a great deal of animosity among the player base as a whole, thus making pugging even less desirable among new and older players alike, because the of the risk of dealing with someone who is just going to be a kill joy to the game for you.

    Well, that's cultural shift for you, and and thus everyone, new and old alike, needed to develop/acquire a means to be self sufficient or find another game to play. Thus only the players that could adapt to the situation remained, so at this point in it's development, DDO is now filled with a legion of players that have found the means to be self sufficient on whatever class they have opted to play at the moment.

    This ability to solo even elite quests opened a Pandora's box of all kinds of questions about their willingness to pug with strangers. The biggest one being of course:

    "If I can solo that quest, why do I want to run it with you?"

    And the other one being:

    "If I wanted company, why would put up with the risk of dealing with what could be a total a-hole, as opposed to running with a guild mate or channel buddy?"

    So, the decline in Pugging is just a byproduct of the cultural shift of the player base, it has nothing at all to do with anything Turbine has done in regards to game mechanics.

    Pugging decline is not indictive of the games health, it's a case of reaping what you sow.

  8. #48
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3oN95 View Post
    I think everyone in-game has already understood that you don't *have* to group, actually, has many of the people posting here simply stopped doing it :P. The problem I believe is that, as more and more players start running solo (and as many people already said here, it's just better for them that way, nothing wrong with that, maybe something wrong with a multiplayer game using a system that is detrimental to... multiplaying, but that's for another thread I suppose), it becomes progressively harder for you if you do *want* to solo.

    Above that, I also find it hard to recommend DDO to someone who only wants to play solo, given all the singleplayer titles that give you way more singleplayer content and story quality (The Witcher, Mass Effect, etc), way better content flexibility sometimes (Any modded Elder Scrolls game, even NWN2 if one's into D&D). And none of them requiring internet connection, thus not having lag or connection problems of any kind. But this is kind of subjective I suppose, YMMV.

    Maybe people in game realize you don't have to group but I'm talking about people who won't give it a try. There's a stigma associated with MMO's that drive people who simply want to play a video game away. They don't see these games as solo-friendly.

    Elder scrolls - going online.

    Neverwinter - online.

    The trend is clear. More are more games are going online. Heck, in general lots of things are going online. That's where I rent movies now. You can't sit around telling people who want to solo that they have to play 5, 10, or 20 year old games. Turbine realizes this & has adjusted accordingly. This game has good grouping mechanics, so again, it's up to the community to foster a good grouping environment. The forums are a good place to meet people, advertise groups, guilds, raids, etc. The people here can help set the tone of friendly, fun grouping. The thing is, though, that people seem too worried about 10% xp, zerging, flowersniffing, etc. They apparently don't even try to get along with other people. This is not Turbine's fault.

  9. #49
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3oN95 View Post
    Imho, DDO's audience is into what makes us achieve our character goals faster/easier. When I first played (about 4y ago), that was grouping. In time, with the scaling/xp changes already mentioned before, it started being solo instead.

    We could debate about whether that's a good design choice for a D&D-based massive multiplayer game, given the type of player that franchise may attract, but given some of the previous posts in this thread, it would probably just be classified as ranting and end right there, making a potentially interesting debate kind of pointless.
    I do think there are less players, but the problem for me is as much the different playerbase as it is a lack of players. I throw up an lfm for Epic Hard Von 3 or Epic Hard Rusted Blades or some other xp quest and those fill fairly quickly. There are also often lfms for those type of quests often. The problem for me is what am I leveling for.

    Epic hard is not too difficult and you just zerge it for quick xp, but what is the point. I build and level this character, but never really test in game and never really play to its full capabilities. That is what epic elite is for, but nobody wants to run it. I really do not understand the appeal of leveling a character where you are never tested. I do not enjoy leveling that much it just feels like an grind to get a goal, but I never actually get to use this character on epic elite or a stressful situation so what is the point.

    DDO now feels like it is full of these ceaseless/empty grinders. I am not a fan of the current playerbase in DDO. I do not enjoy soloing epic elites, but playing with a group of others. Although I really enjoyed the enhancement pass, I have a feeling I will not be playing DDO much longer.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do think there are less players, but the problem for me is as much the different playerbase as it is a lack of players. I throw up an lfm for Epic Hard Von 3 or Epic Hard Rusted Blades or some other xp quest and those fill fairly quickly. There are also often lfms for those type of quests often. The problem for me is what am I leveling for.

    Epic hard is not too difficult and you just zerge it for quick xp, but what is the point. I build and level this character, but never really test in game and never really play to its full capabilities. That is what epic elite is for, but nobody wants to run it. I really do not understand the appeal of leveling a character where you are never tested. I do not enjoy leveling that much it just feels like an grind to get a goal, but I never actually get to use this character on epic elite or a stressful situation so what is the point.

    DDO now feels like it is full of these ceaseless/empty grinders. I am not a fan of the current playerbase in DDO. I do not enjoy soloing epic elites, but playing with a group of others. Although I really enjoyed the enhancement pass, I have a feeling I will not be playing DDO much longer.
    It’s funny how we are of different opinions, but we both come to the same conclusion. I hate the new enhancements, but I love to zerg and solo.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Maybe people in game realize you don't have to group but I'm talking about people who won't give it a try. There's a stigma associated with MMO's that drive people who simply want to play a video game away. They don't see these games as solo-friendly.

    Elder scrolls - going online.

    Neverwinter - online.

    The trend is clear. More are more games are going online. Heck, in general lots of things are going online. That's where I rent movies now. You can't sit around telling people who want to solo that they have to play 5, 10, or 20 year old games. Turbine realizes this & has adjusted accordingly. This game has good grouping mechanics, so again, it's up to the community to foster a good grouping environment. The forums are a good place to meet people, advertise groups, guilds, raids, etc. The people here can help set the tone of friendly, fun grouping. The thing is, though, that people seem too worried about 10% xp, zerging, flowersniffing, etc. They apparently don't even try to get along with other people. This is not Turbine's fault.
    I understood you were talking about the ones that didn't try out the game yet (I read my post again and I made it seem like I didn't at the beginning, sorry). That's why I spoke about the other single player titles. I also witnessed that stigma you're talking about from some people (about gaming in general, but especially online gaming, yes).

    Every game I referenced had its last release less than 2 years ago, except NWN2, so they're not old titles (even NWN2, the older one, is from around the same time as DDO). And I can understand being mislead by the titles (that's their goal when they use them), but the Elder Scrolls that's going online (just like Neverwinter) has nothing to do with the single-player one except the lore, and it's not the same development team working on it either. Those games (NWO and apparently ESO too, although we can't be sure about the 2nd one yet) don't seem to be trying to cater to the players of the games I mentioned earlier, but instead trying to cater to the online gamers while hopefully making the single-player ones spend their money based on the franchise name (and if you check Neverwinter Online, the only thing in common with NWN it has are the names of some towns and abilities).

    Just like any other trend, there are examples of companies who adopt online because it comes with improvements that benefits both the sellers and the consumers (and the movie example you gave is perfect: way cheaper to distribute content, and way easier for the costumer to purchase and see it), and there are the others, who just follow a trend without any good reason for it, other than it being a trend. And for the people who like to play solo, I can't see any improvement DDO gives over the titles I've mentioned, but can see many disadvantages (some of them already mentioned earlier. ymmv, of course)

    As for the kind of player you mentioned in the end, I completely agree with you there, I find it actually better for them to play solo, both for them and for the ones who group, and attitude beats any game mechanism imo.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do think there are less players, but the problem for me is as much the different playerbase as it is a lack of players. I throw up an lfm for Epic Hard Von 3 or Epic Hard Rusted Blades or some other xp quest and those fill fairly quickly. There are also often lfms for those type of quests often. The problem for me is what am I leveling for.

    Epic hard is not too difficult and you just zerge it for quick xp, but what is the point. I build and level this character, but never really test in game and never really play to its full capabilities. That is what epic elite is for, but nobody wants to run it. I really do not understand the appeal of leveling a character where you are never tested. I do not enjoy leveling that much it just feels like an grind to get a goal, but I never actually get to use this character on epic elite or a stressful situation so what is the point.

    DDO now feels like it is full of these ceaseless/empty grinders. I am not a fan of the current playerbase in DDO. I do not enjoy soloing epic elites, but playing with a group of others. Although I really enjoyed the enhancement pass, I have a feeling I will not be playing DDO much longer.
    And do you think that group of players is the majority of the player-base (not being rhetorical here, I really don't know :s)? Because to me, I feel the number of people PuGing is inferior to the number of people who'd like/wouldn't mind to PuG, and I can't figure out if that's happening (assuming it is happening) because of the anti-group mechanics implemented over time, if it's just an established stigma, or if there's a big enough group of people simply oblivious to LFM/grouping in general (because tbh, they're not exactly being told about its existence that much. I met a couple players from my country the other day who didn't even know they could post LFM's, and they've been playing for a couple months already :P)

  12. #52
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3oN95 View Post
    And do you think that group of players is the majority of the player-base (not being rhetorical here, I really don't know :s)? Because to me, I feel the number of people PuGing is inferior to the number of people who'd like/wouldn't mind to PuG, and I can't figure out if that's happening (assuming it is happening) because of the anti-group mechanics implemented over time, if it's just an established stigma, or if there's a big enough group of people simply oblivious to LFM/grouping in general (because tbh, they're not exactly being told about its existence that much. I met a couple players from my country the other day who didn't even know they could post LFM's, and they've been playing for a couple months already :P)
    This is another reason why people do not like to pug. No offense to anyone and their play style, but some like to log on kill a few bad guys and log off. They can’t be bothered to learn simple mechanics or other things about the game that could make things easier for them. I am not calling this people worthless or brain dead, they simply do not take the game as “serious” as others do. Even if you think that people treat this game as too serious, I will find someone that does not think people take it serious enough.

    You will always run into people that laugh every time after they die and you will always run into people that get pi$$ed when people die. This will never change, at least under the current system Turbine has in place.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3oN95 View Post

    And do you think that group of players is the majority of the player-base (not being rhetorical here, I really don't know :s)? Because to me, I feel the number of people PuGing is inferior to the number of people who'd like/wouldn't mind to PuG, and I can't figure out if that's happening (assuming it is happening) because of the anti-group mechanics implemented over time, if it's just an established stigma, or if there's a big enough group of people simply oblivious to LFM/grouping in general (because tbh, they're not exactly being told about its existence that much. I met a couple players from my country the other day who didn't even know they could post LFM's, and they've been playing for a couple months already :P)
    In answer to your questions the majority of the playerbase generally has no characters over level 12 or something like that. I am talking about the players that have level 25 characters. You likely have a point that for these newer players LFMing is not very well done in DDO. I personally though have a problem with the playerbase that have level 25 characters that they are just not interested in doing epic elites. They use to be interested at least somewhat in doing them, but now they are not really at all.

    Producer Rowan is totally correct in saying that raids are not popular. It is just not raids though it is end game in general. I am not sure what can be done if anything.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3oN95 View Post
    What's the difference between PuGing and grouping with people from a user channel? Unless it's really restrictive, I suppose you'll be playing with people you don't know anyway, right?
    It varies with each user channel, but basically the ones I am part of try to filter out those who are not pleasant to be around. While player skill has far less priority in these channels they also seem to greatly reduce the chance of getting a player who is incompetent. Think of it as a more advanced way to form parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Producer Rowan is totally correct in saying that raids are not popular. It is just not raids though it is end game in general. I am not sure what can be done if anything.
    I am pretty confident it has to do with two main factors - raid design and loot drop rates. Caught in the Web is long but barely gives any loot. Fall of Truth, while enjoyable with decent drop rates, is basically the Tor in one big room. Turbine simply cannot design a good raid anymore.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 09-01-2013 at 11:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    I personally am in favor of Turbine instituting an XP bonus for putting up a PUG and I am not talking about selective PUGs.
    Man, that's a great idea. 20% Public Group bonus, sure it can be manipulated, but it encourages the use of the LFM system over channel groups for leveling (which is really the only place it matters).

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do think there are less players, but the problem for me is as much the different playerbase as it is a lack of players. I throw up an lfm for Epic Hard Von 3 or Epic Hard Rusted Blades or some other xp quest and those fill fairly quickly. There are also often lfms for those type of quests often. The problem for me is what am I leveling for.

    Epic hard is not too difficult and you just zerge it for quick xp, but what is the point. I build and level this character, but never really test in game and never really play to its full capabilities. That is what epic elite is for, but nobody wants to run it. I really do not understand the appeal of leveling a character where you are never tested. I do not enjoy leveling that much it just feels like an grind to get a goal, but I never actually get to use this character on epic elite or a stressful situation so what is the point.

    DDO now feels like it is full of these ceaseless/empty grinders. I am not a fan of the current playerbase in DDO. I do not enjoy soloing epic elites, but playing with a group of others. Although I really enjoyed the enhancement pass, I have a feeling I will not be playing DDO much longer.
    Move to Ghallanda, a few knuckleheads their last night did a BYOH EE WGU pug.

    If people could get their characters to 28 running EEs in an efficient manner they would. They cannot so you cannot blame anyone for wanting to take longer than they have to.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Producer Rowan is totally correct in saying that raids are not popular. It is just not raids though it is end game in general. I am not sure what can be done if anything.
    Raids are not popular because most of their loot is now ****. Anyone saying otherwise is wrong.

  18. #58
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    The LFM system might as well be removed from the game at this point. Last night there were several hundred people on my server above level 25 and ZERO LFMs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Producer Rowan is totally correct in saying that raids are not popular.
    I missed that.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastrd View Post
    It's pretty sad when a FvS can't fill a group on a Friday night. My fear is that by the time Turbine sees the light and merges some servers it'll be too late.
    I feel sorry for your server but i can't stop myself; come to G-land not that it's great here but at least there's people :P

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