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  1. #41
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    I'm with the OP. You want to make T5 enhancements ML8, make them ML8. You want to give fighters two fewer feats, give them two fewer feats. Don't make a byzantine system where ML4 pre-req enhancements require a feat that in turn requires 8 fighter levels (none of this stated in the enhancement descrption of course), particularly when that feat is useless and has a pre-req of an additional useless feat. That's just bad design.

    I and I don't buy that 15M/5fighter is some big problem, you're giving up stunning fist to use weapons, and you're wisdom based if you want to use quiver palm so that increased crit range isn't going to really shine. Anyway, you can already swing around a Sireth with a 12-20/x3 crit range with T5 Heshin mystic... so that ship has pretty much sailed anyway.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That's a wholly invalid, irrelevant justification with zero merit.
    that's one opinion. however, to get what you get with tier 5 in Kensii tree now you had to spend how many levels in fighter and how many feats? your getting a bargain this way already.

  3. #43
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    that's one opinion. however, to get what you get with tier 5 in Kensii tree now you had to spend how many levels in fighter and how many feats? your getting a bargain this way already.
    "It's always been that way" is an invalid and irrelevant argument. That is a fact, not an opinion. It's a logical fallacy.

    There may be other reasons, other arguments, why the feats are justified, and opinions can certainly differ in that regard.

    I don't believe they are necessary for balance; they never were. Therefore, they should go away.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    that's one opinion. however, to get what you get with tier 5 in Kensii tree now you had to spend how many levels in fighter and how many feats? your getting a bargain this way already.
    It's as if you aren't aware that every other class got a much bigger bargain than kensei did by virtue of only needing 5 class levels to take tier 5 enhancements. Which means that kensei doesn't get a bargain; compared to everyone else they get robbed.

  5. #45
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Is that a serious question? The point I made was made clearly. Do you really need me to spell it out for you?
    Yes, please. The point was not clear, as it could be explained in two ways. It could be interpreted as a mere observation, or as a justification why the level requirement should be removed. Without knowledge on your stance it is unclear which point you are making.

    It's better to be as clear and concise as possible if you want to avoid confusion. For instance, by adding "Therefore I believe the level requirement should be removed for Kensai as well". As writing advice, be aware that leaving the interpretation open to the reader can yield confusion.

    And for the record, you need level around 8 levels worth of AP to get Tier 5 abilities, so there is no single class that can have a Tier 5 abilities at lvl 5. I think that doesn't make the feat requirement very restrictive. However, it should be clear upfront that you should be taking the prerequisities.

  6. #46
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Yes, please. The point was not clear, as it could be explained in two ways. It could be interpreted as a mere observation, or as a justification why the level requirement should be removed. Without knowledge on your stance it is unclear which point you are making.

    It's better to be as clear and concise as possible if you want to avoid confusion. For instance, by adding "Therefore I believe the level requirement should be removed for Kensai as well". As writing advice, be aware that leaving the interpretation open to the reader can yield confusion.

    And for the record, you need level around 8 levels worth of AP to get Tier 5 abilities, so there is no single class that can have a Tier 5 abilities at lvl 5. I think that doesn't make the feat requirement very restrictive. However, it should be clear upfront that you should be taking the prerequisities.
    but you can take tier 5 abilities by just splashing 5 levels of a class, well for most prestige enhancements right? I agree they should be much clearer about needing * levels in fighter and the feat to unlock that......it would save a lot of confusion for some people and hopefully stop someone making a mistake.

  7. #47
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's as if you aren't aware that every other class got a much bigger bargain than kensei did by virtue of only needing 5 class levels to take tier 5 enhancements. Which means that kensei doesn't get a bargain; compared to everyone else they get robbed.
    fully aware. and I have played Kensii before and after the EP and Kensii not only got a bargain but, a huge buff.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's as if you aren't aware that every other class got a much bigger bargain than kensei did by virtue of only needing 5 class levels to take tier 5 enhancements. Which means that kensei doesn't get a bargain; compared to everyone else they get robbed.
    Lol. I am palying kensai split and I planned that kensai split (with different levels) before enchantement change. I remade it after the change and I am NOT robbed in any way. I am in fact much more powerfull in every way, except for DC on tacticals and even that was my choice for MOAR dakka from other sources. Kensai got so massivelly buffed by ench pass that it is not even funny. Cant imagine getting a better bargain without breaking the game :-D

    Seriously, expanded crirical AND One with the Blade are so much powerfull abilities, that they deserve higher level limitation. Ftr 5 would be just... wrong. If ya dont like it and think that kensei got robbed, I highly suggest using non-kensei build that you dont consider robbed.

  9. #49
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Lol. I am palying kensai split and I planned that kensai split (with different levels) before enchantement change. I remade it after the change and I am NOT robbed in any way. I am in fact much more powerfull in every way, except for DC on tacticals and even that was my choice for MOAR dakka from other sources. Kensai got so massivelly buffed by ench pass that it is not even funny. Cant imagine getting a better bargain without breaking the game :-D

    Seriously, expanded crirical AND One with the Blade are so much powerfull abilities, that they deserve higher level limitation. Ftr 5 would be just... wrong. If ya dont like it and think that kensei got robbed, I highly suggest using non-kensei build that you dont consider robbed.
    this

    Kensii would be getting robbed if anyone could take 5 lvls of fighter spend no feats and get tier 5

    you want to be a Kensii you've got to put in the effort

  10. #50
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    It would seem to me that simply lowering the level requirements on the needed feats would solve the inconsistency issue.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    And for the record, you need level around 8 levels worth of AP to get Tier 5 abilities, so there is no single class that can have a Tier 5 abilities at lvl 5.
    For the record, ALL tier 5 abilities require 12 character levels. Nobody can take any tier 5s for any class before level 12.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    For the record, ALL tier 5 abilities require 12 character levels. Nobody can take any tier 5s for any class before level 12.
    I thought it was 8 to have the 30 needed AP.

  13. #53
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    this one caught me by surprise also when i was trying to LR my paladin. i don't so much mind that the feat requirement is there, i mind that it's misleading that it says i can take it at 5th level, when i cannot because of the feat requirement.

    i'd rather be be changed, one way or the other... either remove the feat requirement/change the level you need to be to take that particular feat, OR change the text of the item in the kensai tree so it says you can't take it till 8th level... i don't personally care which, as long as it makes sense and is no longer misleading.

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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I thought it was 8 to have the 30 needed AP.
    Nope, it's level 12. All tier 5 enhancements in all trees say "Character Level 12" in their requirements.

    In the original alpha version you used to be able to take them as soon as you'd spent 40 AP in the tree, meaning level 11 was the earliest you could get them. When they scaled back the point in tree costs to 30 AP for a tier 5, they added the lockout mechanism to tier 5s (preventing you from taking tier 5s in more than one tree) and added a hard ML12 to all of them.

    This isn't class level, mind you, but character level. So a 6/6 build can take tier 5s if they want. Except kensei, of course, because kensei is special and unlike every other tree, tier 5 kensei enhancements are powerful.

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