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  1. #21
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    Those are all the same two handed related enhancements that basically expand on the feats, a monk enhancement that requires a path chosen not an actual feat, and another ability that expands on a feat, thus requiring the feat is not out of place. Oh and of course the fighter line that's the subject of the thread.

    If anything that list does a Nice job of highlighting how out of place the fighter feat requirements are. Any class can take THF feats and that list contains no examples where all the tier 5's of a PrE are locked out without 8 levels of a specific class.

    The people who say its fine are not paying attention to the other PrE's every other class can access its tier 5's with 5 class levels, and again MOST of them without feats. fighter is the only one locked out until 8 and forced to take a rather sub optimal feat tax as well.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Those are all the same two handed related enhancements that basically expand on the feats, a monk enhancement that requires a path chosen not an actual feat, and another ability that expands on a feat, thus requiring the feat is not out of place. Oh and of course the fighter line that's the subject of the thread.

    If anything that list does a Nice job of highlighting how out of place the fighter feat requirements are. Any class can take THF feats and that list contains no examples where all the tier 5's of a PrE are locked out without 8 levels of a specific class.

    The people who say its fine are not paying attention to the other PrE's every other class can access its tier 5's with 5 class levels, and again MOST of them without feats. fighter is the only one locked out until 8 and forced to take a rather sub optimal feat tax as well.
    these (so called) sub optimal feats has always been a prerequisite for Kensii and are well worth the investment /not signed
    Last edited by Tanngiostr; 08-31-2013 at 09:30 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfhild View Post
    I believe the restriction is put in place for one very important reason.
    The Devs may not want Quivering Balizardes and Quivering Nightmares that a 15 monk\5 fighter build would allow.
    This is the true reason. They'd either have to change the fighter tree to be completely different than other trees or do what they did, control the situation using factors that were already in place pre EP.

  4. #24
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    It's not like fighters are exactly feat starved. Perhaps if someone whines loudly enough, the devs will balance things out by raising the level requirements for the other trees' tier 5 features.
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  5. #25
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    I would be in favor of moving it up to tier 5. Regardless of being available to someone with only 5 fighter levels, tier 5 pre-req is 30 ap spent, so you would already be level 8 when reaching it. Fighters have enough feats to spare and this one does make sense fluff wise and keeps it similar to the old enhancements. The only other change I might suggest is improving weapon focus as a feat. Weapon specialization pre-req from the old enhancements at least offered a minor boost to damage, making the feat tax less onerous. Weapon focus bonus to hit is far less significant, if even noticeable.
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  6. #26
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Quite a few trees have Feat pre-req's that are higher than the ML of the enhancement itself:

    Human Tier 2 Fighting Style: Great Weapon 2: Improved Two Handed Fighting, ML 6
    ...
    These are all general feats, and don't require more class levels than the number of class levels specified.

    They're also good feats that people interested in THF are going to take anyway.

    Ninja Spy Tier 1 Ninjutsu: Monk Path, ML 3
    Shintao Monk Tier 1 Elemental Curatives: Monk Path, ML 3
    Thief Acrobat Tier 4 Improved Defensive Roll: Defensive Roll, ML 10
    These technically do, but there are obvious reasons why they are the way they are. And the Monk ones are free. They're also not the centerpieces of their trees. Kensei is basically pointless beyond a splash without 8 Fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    I guess no one noticed the FB tree. What Barb is going to get 13 intell and waste two feats for one weak tier V attack?
    Yeah, that's silly. But since the important stuff in that tree isn't gated behind that, it's less of an impact.

    Improved Trip really should just drop the Combat Expertise prereq.

  7. #27
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    I would be in favor of moving it up to tier 5. Regardless of being available to someone with only 5 fighter levels, tier 5 pre-req is 30 ap spent, so you would already be level 8 when reaching it. Fighters have enough feats to spare and this one does make sense fluff wise and keeps it similar to the old enhancements. The only other change I might suggest is improving weapon focus as a feat. Weapon specialization pre-req from the old enhancements at least offered a minor boost to damage, making the feat tax less onerous. Weapon focus bonus to hit is far less significant, if even noticeable.
    its not about being a lvl 8 Charicter its about having 8 fighter levels to unluck a tier 5 which is fine given that in the past to unlock Kensii 3 you needed fighter levels in the high teens.

  8. #28
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    LOL LOL LOL! That is the immediate reaction to all who are complaining as if it was some super secret hidden req. Of all the changes I liked the changes and synergy for kensai monk the most. Those even considering pure fighter kensai at this point are not even deserving of being called skilled warriors. The monk class actually incorporates much of what the old Kensai class from the Oriental Handbook was about, including not wearing armor, and being more about agility and understanding the way of battle on a instinctual level mere fighters can never be capable of.

    My only thought is I feel greater weapon focus is a rather redundant feat, and perhaps changing it for Improved Critical with your weapon is a fair compromise for those who are feeling so perturbed. As its a feat with a comparable lvl range to GWF but hopefully appealing enough it wont bother so many to have to take.

    The fact it allows synergy with monk with only 8 lvls of fighter is imo still a great thing Id hate to have it change to need more lvls of fighter by it being moved to the lvl 12 core ability as one in this thread suggested with no thought to how much of a negative it could be to others.

    I am currently working on a 8/7/5 kensai/ninja/assassin drow who will be able to use everything from daggers to rapiers while being centered and using a largely dex/wis based build with just enough str for the cleave great cleave sstuff, while also having whirldwind, Fighters and monks get so many bonus feats QQing about a single feat req and a slightly higher lvl gate for what will in my mind become a FOTM standard as more drow fans see the possibility of being a very deadly weapon user who with GMOF as a truly viable option for their main ED will allow tons of ranged DPS in emergencies via ki, great added survival boosts, and so many twist options to further take them up its scary. Or one can drop out those rogue lvls for pallie lvls, getting huge saves if they can spare for charisma if they are using a higher point build base. And some easy spell points, turns which can be used to deal solid dmg to undead if nothing else with a little AP in the right line.

    My point is anything that requires more then 8 lvls in a fighter to still balance is a NERF and a totally needless one. Likewise those playing pure fighters and even considering themselves kensai are outright doing it WRONG and there is no argument you can make to counter that as the very spirit of what a Kensai should be requires one be more of a monk then a fighter. A kensai is a master of his weapon so perfected using things like armor are beneath him, often even using a real weapon over a practice weapon is beneath them as the real world Icon that inspired the D&D kensai was Musashi Miyomoto. A man who is on record for beating dozens of men in fair duels, using nothing more then a bokken while his opponents would be armed with real swords.

    It has nothing to do with "Fluff" as so many put it and more about showing a little respect to a real man who was so amazing that even all these generations later he sets a standard for how a real swordsmaster should be. Characters throughout fantasy not just anime but all sword based adventurers often have a character who is little more then a musashi wannabe he has that deep of an impact on sword fan culture.

    So while I can understand how those lacking abit of reading comprehension might of been blind sided during character rebuilding and ignored that feat prereq and finding their LR 20 wasted do to their own inability. I absolutely do not feel the first real attempted at a multi class intended PRE should be altered to benefit purists more then the core ability capstones for many classes already do. If one wants to be a pure class melee DPS focus go play an assassin they are about as straightforward and thoughtless a play style as can exist these days. Roll rogue, go pure dex/int, stay rogue or neuter assassinate into uselessness, and then go pure shadow dancer for more DC and carry one Emidnight always no matter what for more DC, its litterally a FOTM that will never end because its literally the only way to do it. At least a 8 fighter req allows one plenty of class flexibility to work out what kind of weapon master and unique flavor you may want to be from the drow i suggested to some kind of dwarven axe kensai ranger monk etc

    Stop hating on something that actually is giving tons of options that the shortsighted simply cant see, and hate on the lack of changes in other PRE that make teir 5 abilities like assassinate totally pointless to take unless your a PURIST. They might as well of merged assinated with the lvl 20 capstone for assassins because without that full 20 lvls that ability becomes worthless in higher lvl difs.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Those are all the same two handed related enhancements that basically expand on the feats, a monk enhancement that requires a path chosen not an actual feat, and another ability that expands on a feat, thus requiring the feat is not out of place. Oh and of course the fighter line that's the subject of the thread.
    Nearly. They're enhancements where you can't take the enhancement at level on a pure build until you take a higher level feat.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    These are all general feats, and don't require more class levels than the number of class levels specified.
    See answer above.

  11. #31
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    If you don't have room for F8 in your weapon-monk build you could always just, you know, use centering weapons....Shortswords and Longswords are both fine choices that are available as Ki weapons without taking One With the Blade.

    Fig 5 still gets full benefit of Kensei tree with Centering weapons. The extra 3 Fig levels let you extend that to ANYthing, and I don't think that's an unfair prereq for that. It'd be like a skill that removes all ASF from armor and shields; it completely circumvents a major limitation on a class. The whole point of Centering is that it justifies giving Monks more power, because they're limited in their weapon selections.

  12. #32
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    At some point people have to accept balancing factors. And such are feats, which do not give a significant power increase. There should be even more prerq.s like these.

    The problem are epic elite features of mobs, which make everything as fluffy as the Kensai prereq.s kind of a wanted obstacle. And looking at endgame every dead feat is tedious.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Nearly. They're enhancements where you can't take the enhancement at level on a pure build until you take a higher level feat.
    But that's still not really comparable to Kensai.

    With those feats, you will eventually be able to take those feats and take the Enhancements. You just have to level your character more.

    With Kensai, if you take the Enhancement description at face value, and plan to take 5 or 6 Fighter levels, you're screwed. You can't ever take those top level Enhancements without doing a respec.

    The impact is much more significant.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    The people who say its fine are not paying attention to the other PrE's every other class can access its tier 5's with 5 class levels, and again MOST of them without feats. fighter is the only one locked out until 8 and forced to take a rather sub optimal feat tax as well.
    Not true. Examples:
    Acrobat Improved Defence Roll lvl4 (Requires Defence Dice - Rogue lvl 10 feat)
    KotC Divine Might lvl2 (can be taken with 2lvls but requires Turn Undead - Paladin lvl4 autogrant in order to actually be used)
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  15. #35
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    Oh good grief... defensive roll is literally a extension of a feat. It is not a tier 5, not having defensive roll does not lock a rogue out of all its best tier 5's.

    THF feats are not class specific and the abilities they are required for are not tier 5, are also enhancements of the feats and the lack of those feats does not lock anyone out of all the good tier 5's in their tree.

    I don't know how else to put it but there are rather obvious and substantial differences.

    No other class is forced to take 8 levels or be locked out of all the best tier 5's none, 5 sorc gets wind dance, 5 rogue gets almost the same bonuses as Kensei, 5 Wiz gets full Archmage SLA, etc etc etc etc etc. Please look over the PrE's and stop pretending that being excluded from a single tier 2 or 3 ability that is hardly vital, is the same as being excluded from all the good tier 5 in the only good fighter tree.

    Again if centered monk weapon is considered that powerful gate it by itself. Don't put all the good 5's behind the same gate. It just means that fighter is the only class that is effectively required to take 3 more levels than any other class.
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  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    these (so called) sub optimal feats has always been a prerequisite for Kensii
    That's a wholly invalid, irrelevant justification with zero merit.

  17. #37
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    Just clearly state in the enhancement's description... requires Greater Weapon Focus: <type> FTR8


    and problem is solved and no one will be misled... you'll know you need 8 levels of Fighter to get Greater Weapon Specialization enhancement at tier 4.
    You know I had been using the Superior Sarcasm font exclusively but it seems in a unannounced hotfix they slipped in the Sovereign Sarcasm font... keep up the good work guys!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Oh good grief... defensive roll is literally a extension of a feat. It is not a tier 5, not having defensive roll does not lock a rogue out of all its best tier 5's.

    THF feats are not class specific and the abilities they are required for are not tier 5, are also enhancements of the feats and the lack of those feats does not lock anyone out of all the good tier 5's in their tree.

    I don't know how else to put it but there are rather obvious and substantial differences.

    No other class is forced to take 8 levels or be locked out of all the best tier 5's none, 5 sorc gets wind dance, 5 rogue gets almost the same bonuses as Kensei, 5 Wiz gets full Archmage SLA, etc etc etc etc etc. Please look over the PrE's and stop pretending that being excluded from a single tier 2 or 3 ability that is hardly vital, is the same as being excluded from all the good tier 5 in the only good fighter tree.

    Again if centered monk weapon is considered that powerful gate it by itself. Don't put all the good 5's behind the same gate. It just means that fighter is the only class that is effectively required to take 3 more levels than any other class.
    LOL again. SLAs are based on caster lvl so trying to say one doesnt have to focus to enjoy them is BS. Any SLA is in reality more locked behind specific class lvls for them to function then anything else. For example since you brought up wind dance, that is not the main ability of a areomancer. The lightning bolt SL is. And last I checked anything short of 10 caster lvls leaves that gimped. So at least up until EDs and their ability to increase caster lvls, its pretty clear to any and all that inspite of what you keep trying to say, not all teir 5s take just 5 lvls in a class to enjoy.

    Nor is kensai the best fighter ED. Warriors in PnP by high lvl are not DPS they are meat shields, distractions, sacrifical fools to throw at big bads while the magic users do all the real heavy lifting. That is the way of the D&D universe. Epic lvl pure fighters are nothing but that and any who want to see them be otherwise want to hurt the game and take it further away from PnP then any chance turbine has made to date. So while a monk fighter super hero deserves a chance to thrive in end game, as monks are the only warrior centric class in the core books meant to be really bad ass in epic content on their own right, a pure fighter, a grunt, a mere mortal sword swinger, has only the right to expect to be cannon fodder and trying to QQ about it only shows how unfit they are to even be on this game over WoW.

  19. #39
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Warriors in PnP
    This isn't PnP.

    And even in PnP that's a terrible way to approach the game.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by inventoryisfull View Post
    Why does it need a level 8 fighter feat 'greater weapon focus' lower down in the tree, when it only requires fighter level 5 for the top tier? why?


    ---____________________---
    Because the level 5 requirement is a general requirement for all top tier enhancements and level 8 is the requirement for that specific prerequisite.

    Kind of sloppy sure, but not hard to figure out.

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