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  1. #41
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    "trust me im a paladin"....."im lawful good"
    That is what every blackgaurd I have ever met said.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimulos View Post
    Then we should a) have something to protect us from light damage, as you do have deathward and b) have some evil spells or something (we can't read the dead girls evil spellbook, we can't use duality, to give an example what could/should be fixed) that is not blocked by deathward and does notable damage to you or any other way to make up for the advantages you have. Also, how would you put that ingame? a pvp mode where anyone else that has pvp mode on can battle you right in the city without arena or anything, and without harming the others? Or just that every Paladin can attack any Pale master and some higher trolls go push themselves by killing noobs and killing their joy.

    Maybe an evil aligned part of the game would be possible too, with a completely different city where you arrive, you would have to unlock it ingame first through a certain questline or favor with a faction or some total favor step or something. Inside each others city you can't battle, but there is an open pvp area somewehre in between, where your spells only affect evil aligned (or good/neutral aligned if on the other side). Though that would be a HUGE deal of work, having to rework questlines or more likely make new ones that fit for an evil char.

    As of now, neither does exist and only a way for Pallys to kill PM and not the other way round is unfair and any battle options unbalanced, thus it needs to be fixed.



    Seeing as my PM is a rather uncommon type of Undying Court follower (rolewise) and the Flame practically can't stand the thought of any other faith playing a role (The quest with the sovereign host followers that apparently insulted a flame priest and need to be killed under the banner "Purge the Heretics", I don't know wether there are more), they would despise me anyways, too bad one can't work for an other religion and against the flame (I guess that would be evil, and evil is absolute here and the devs are biased towards the flame).



    Then I should be able to at least hold you off by some means, if I can't convince you that I am on your side. (In game lore the suggestion spell should allow me to convince you to leave me be, but that's not possible in the actual game)



    That does help with keeping the shippies, but until I actually get to a shrine it might be destroyed already. I know no quests that are in the level range where death ward mass get's problematic and have a shrine right away at the beginning, aside from the fact that this technique also removes any other buffs the buffers had cast on it.
    While I personally would be happy to have a real open world pvp enviroment more akin to real D&D my real point was if they dont allow us to even pick evil alignments, why did they ever add the option to be undead, something inherently evil by its very nature in the greater view of the meta physical rules that govern the system. Granted eberron had an exception in the Undying Court, and I vehemently feel to this day its wrong for any but high elves to have an undead option in the game world we are given. Having a undying racial PRE for them would of been the best way to ever give undead as an option for us and not clashed with lore and tradition. They could of even made it a benefit of TRing an elf. Due to the obvious power of an undead arcane or dvine, it would of beena fair way to balance it rather then just give undead as a standard way for all wizards to persue, when in PnP vampire is something anyone can become, and lich is something any caster arcane or divine can choose to persue( if evil ofcourse)

  3. #43
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    While I personally would be happy to have a real open world pvp enviroment more akin to real D&D my real point was if they dont allow us to even pick evil alignments, why did they ever add the option to be undead, something inherently evil by its very nature in the greater view of the meta physical rules that govern the system. Granted eberron had an exception in the Undying Court, and I vehemently feel to this day its wrong for any but high elves to have an undead option in the game world we are given. Having a undying racial PRE for them would of been the best way to ever give undead as an option for us and not clashed with lore and tradition. They could of even made it a benefit of TRing an elf. Due to the obvious power of an undead arcane or dvine, it would of beena fair way to balance it rather then just give undead as a standard way for all wizards to persue, when in PnP vampire is something anyone can become, and lich is something any caster arcane or divine can choose to persue( if evil ofcourse)
    Amazing!

    A Karavek Post that I can fully agree with!

    Well...Except for the first Line that is - D&D is and always has been a co-operative game - You want PvP this is NOT the Game for You!


    We seem to be getting more and more Evil Options in the game while the Devs insist on NO Evil Alignments!

    This is Hypocrisy of the Highest Order from Turbine!


    The Necromancy = Evil thing is something I've always been opposed to - Necromancy can be used for good too!

    Giving us the Pale Master Prestige and then allowing it to become the Favored Prestige of the Elitists to the point where Archmages have been looked down on for as long as I've been playing DDO is Wrong!

    I've already been told in game that my Archmage {who I wasn't even on at the time!} is Gimp for Not taking Zombie Form!
    Archmage is a great secondary tree for PMs but PM gives almost nothing to an Archmage in my opinion!

    Sorry - It does give Self Healing - Wherein lies the Problem!
    WF are Inherently the top choice for Arcanes because of Reconstruct!
    Pale Masters are Inherently ahead of Archmages because of Self-Healing!

    BUT I don't want to be forced into either WF or PM!

    I also don't want to keep seeing Evil Options give more than Good Options in Game!
    True Neutral and Stability was Bad Enough - At one point pretty much everyone was telling Newbies in General Chat to go True Neutral!

    Oh and Now Pure Good's gone hasn't it...Just tiers of Holy so no need to be Good to avoid the Insanely High UMD requirements any more!
    Yet Another Nail in the Coffin of Good in DDO!

  4. #44
    Community Member Arnez's Avatar
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    WAITAMINUTE.


    If a PM types /death- what happens?!?!?


    (or more importantly- what *should* happen?)

  5. #45
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Don't the elves have liches who are actually good or even at least neutral who help look after and guard their communities and or mythals or whatever?

    Though I can see how necromancy can be bad with raising unwilling undead and creating monsters, thinking undead like vampires and gouls for example.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Amazing!

    A Karavek Post that I can fully agree with!

    Well...Except for the first Line that is - D&D is and always has been a co-operative game - You want PvP this is NOT the Game for You!


    We seem to be getting more and more Evil Options in the game while the Devs insist on NO Evil Alignments!

    This is Hypocrisy of the Highest Order from Turbine!


    The Necromancy = Evil thing is something I've always been opposed to - Necromancy can be used for good too!

    Giving us the Pale Master Prestige and then allowing it to become the Favored Prestige of the Elitists to the point where Archmages have been looked down on for as long as I've been playing DDO is Wrong!

    I've already been told in game that my Archmage {who I wasn't even on at the time!} is Gimp for Not taking Zombie Form!
    Archmage is a great secondary tree for PMs but PM gives almost nothing to an Archmage in my opinion!

    Sorry - It does give Self Healing - Wherein lies the Problem!
    WF are Inherently the top choice for Arcanes because of Reconstruct!
    Pale Masters are Inherently ahead of Archmages because of Self-Healing!

    BUT I don't want to be forced into either WF or PM!

    I also don't want to keep seeing Evil Options give more than Good Options in Game!
    True Neutral and Stability was Bad Enough - At one point pretty much everyone was telling Newbies in General Chat to go True Neutral!

    Oh and Now Pure Good's gone hasn't it...Just tiers of Holy so no need to be Good to avoid the Insanely High UMD requirements any more!
    Yet Another Nail in the Coffin of Good in DDO!
    Actually D&D at its core is PvP. What you like so many here have a mistaken view of is seeing the term PvP as player vs player when it fact it originally meant person vs person, and was a setting found on things like old electronic chess boards longs before the age of the internet. Every session of D&D around the table top is just that a living thinking mind working against another. using game mechanics to create scenerios and bring about situations meant to confuse, and outright defeat your opponents. Sometimes the DM will be many beings at once, sometimes he will be trying to dumb down his own tactical mind to better RP unthinking foes, or doing his damndest to get inside the role or a super genius 40,000 year old elder wyrm. But D&D is and always has been about the best quality PVP to be found in any game.

    Likewise the main thing people want when asking for more and better challenges in the PVE game is limited by AI, and sadly DDO AI is a true laughing stock among MMOdom and always has. Even cheap fly by night korean grinder MMO AI usually is smart enough to avoid persistance dmg aoe effects as much as possible to the point laying them down is usually more of a CC tactic then a DPS one and feels like a smarter game design for it.

    While some care bears loathe the idea of PvP, the closest thing I have ever had to true RP character immersion in an MMO was in the open world pvp RP server of age of conan. Only when everyone player and npc is seen as the same do you become one with the world, when every person who walks down the road may choose to be a bandit intent on taking your life do you find yourself actually being in the role of your character.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    There is no such thing as a good undead in PnP. The ONE exception I can recall found in an official published module and was from the realms, was a wizard who was also a devout follower of deneir the god of knowledge, He apparently was so engrossed in study that after he died from old age, deneir himself made the man a form of lich to keep on studying and keeping watch over his vast library.
    You might want to look up Baelnorn, they have been around since at least AD&D 2nd edition.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Don't the elves have liches who are actually good or even at least neutral who help look after and guard their communities and or mythals or whatever?

    Though I can see how necromancy can be bad with raising unwilling undead and creating monsters, thinking undead like vampires and gouls for example.
    I actually metnioned above about the undying court and how high elves should have a racial undead PRE to follow if they so choose despite class. Likeiwse as another poster noted a major issue is found in the fact that so long as warforged and PM have a strong self healing advantage they will remain the superior choices for viable survivable builds for play, and those who dont bow to this will likely find themselves exiled from groups as most will not want to let them be a waste of a slot as some put it.

    The fact is forged should not be capable of being any kind of caster as the only construct I ever recall seeing rules for why they can even cast magic and learn it are arcane constructs who absorb magic from wizards to refuel

    Likewise the only option for non evil undead in our games setting are the undying elves. Considering how much elves have been insulted and called inherently gimp for years over things as simple as their con loss for dex etc.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    You might want to look up Baelnorn, they have been around since at least AD&D 2nd edition.
    Oh I am, they frequently get used by GMs as a form of guardian for tombs. I believe they where originally from a FR module and printed in its compendium pages then later reprinted in one of the MMC series books. While they are not technically evil or good, in general they tend to be very hostile to those who encounter them if they are not elves and aware of the undead being and its reasons for being their.

  10. #50
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Also the only necromancy spells that are inherently evil, are the ones that have the evil descriptor. If it doesn't have that, then it isn't evil. The person wielding it might be, but the spell itself isn't.
    Matt Walsh:
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  11. #51
    Self-Appointed Coin Lord of the Seas ForgettableNPC's Avatar
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    Whelp, time to look for Pale Masters and turn them before patch 2, I guess.

    And before anyone asks, no, not that kind of turning.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight13 View Post
    Whelp, time to look for Pale Masters and turn them before patch 2, I guess.And before anyone asks, no, not that kind of turning.
    Ugh and here I am without a paladin... oh wait what is this? a +20 heart of wood? Muhhahaha!
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  13. #53
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Already stopped 2 vile undead from wandering freely among the streets of the Reach. Finally we lawful good paladins can take battle to the streets against the abominations who litter our fair city. No undead will walk here as long as warriors of the silver flame stand strong.

    On a side note until they let me play an evil assassin or PM and makes content to cater to both spectrums of the alignment I will not tolerate so called good undead when on my own good characters. Followers of good dieties DO NOT TOLERATE UNDEAD EVER!
    /Like
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  14. #54
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    I blame the twilight series for all this undead griefing.

  15. #55
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    Well to date Ive put to rest around 2 dozen vile abominations wandering around my fair Reach. Some take it hard, some are taken totally by surprise, some take it as a funny joke to laugh about. I always give fair warning when I step into a zone, declaring it under the protection of the silver flame and any undead best beware my light.

    Now on a serious note, while I know it must come off as me sounding like a royal griefer but its actually the exact opposite. I am doing my part in game to spread the awareness of this bug so people dont get abused by it during far more critical situations then just standing around a public zone.

    Ive already heard of it being used to outright threaten and abuse PM players in game into passing named loot or putting it up for a roll even when they have real need for the item themselves. I had a friend who hadnt heard of this bug in a raid recently get a rather nice bit of named loot drop for him( specifically the much coveted ring of spell storing) when a unusal sorc blend with 4 rather then 2 typical lvls of paladin told him to pass to him or be killed. My friend thought he was just being some wise ass joker and said it was his, boom put down before he had a chance to claim his loot, and no one was willing to rez him( serious sign of the lvl of apathy being found in pugs on Gland these days if you ask me when all would rather laugh at such abuse rather then take a stand) So my friend feeling utterly disgusted logged off, and then deleted DDO from his pc. He just has that little desire to look at the game for the forseeable future.

    So while what I am doing, hunting the undead who wander the streets, may seem cruel and unkind, it is far better a place to learn of this then inside a quest with some divine splash who has it just to try and brow beat others.

  16. #56
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Well to date Ive put to rest around 2 dozen vile abominations wandering around my fair Reach. Some take it hard, some are taken totally by surprise, some take it as a funny joke to laugh about. I always give fair warning when I step into a zone, declaring it under the protection of the silver flame and any undead best beware my light.

    Now on a serious note, while I know it must come off as me sounding like a royal griefer but its actually the exact opposite. I am doing my part in game to spread the awareness of this bug so people dont get abused by it during far more critical situations then just standing around a public zone.

    Ive already heard of it being used to outright threaten and abuse PM players in game into passing named loot or putting it up for a roll even when they have real need for the item themselves. I had a friend who hadnt heard of this bug in a raid recently get a rather nice bit of named loot drop for him( specifically the much coveted ring of spell storing) when a unusal sorc blend with 4 rather then 2 typical lvls of paladin told him to pass to him or be killed. My friend thought he was just being some wise ass joker and said it was his, boom put down before he had a chance to claim his loot, and no one was willing to rez him( serious sign of the lvl of apathy being found in pugs on Gland these days if you ask me when all would rather laugh at such abuse rather then take a stand) So my friend feeling utterly disgusted logged off, and then deleted DDO from his pc. He just has that little desire to look at the game for the forseeable future.

    So while what I am doing, hunting the undead who wander the streets, may seem cruel and unkind, it is far better a place to learn of this then inside a quest with some divine splash who has it just to try and brow beat others.
    wow sorry for your friend I didnt realise people could be such ******/bags............is one way of countering this dropping form at end chests? But you shouldn't need to. That kind of behaviour deserves a lengthy bann, or a perma bann, anyone I see doing anything like this will be blacklisted and their name passed around that is NW type behaviour not really use to seeing stuff like that in DDO.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Actually D&D at its core is PvP. What you like so many here have a mistaken view of is seeing the term PvP as player vs player when it fact it originally meant person vs person, and was a setting found on things like old electronic chess boards longs before the age of the internet. Every session of D&D around the table top is just that a living thinking mind working against another. using game mechanics to create scenerios and bring about situations meant to confuse, and outright defeat your opponents. Sometimes the DM will be many beings at once, sometimes he will be trying to dumb down his own tactical mind to better RP unthinking foes, or doing his damndest to get inside the role or a super genius 40,000 year old elder wyrm. But D&D is and always has been about the best quality PVP to be found in any game.

    Likewise the main thing people want when asking for more and better challenges in the PVE game is limited by AI, and sadly DDO AI is a true laughing stock among MMOdom and always has. Even cheap fly by night korean grinder MMO AI usually is smart enough to avoid persistance dmg aoe effects as much as possible to the point laying them down is usually more of a CC tactic then a DPS one and feels like a smarter game design for it.

    While some care bears loathe the idea of PvP, the closest thing I have ever had to true RP character immersion in an MMO was in the open world pvp RP server of age of conan. Only when everyone player and npc is seen as the same do you become one with the world, when every person who walks down the road may choose to be a bandit intent on taking your life do you find yourself actually being in the role of your character.
    Erm... electronic chessboards arrived some time AFTER the internet. Just sayin'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG
    Well, that MIGHT be fair IF our spells affected you too, have some fun with polar ray for 2500 damage. You have 2500 hp right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG
    Well, that MIGHT be fair IF our spells affected you too, have some fun with polar ray for 2500 damage. You have 2500 hp right?

  20. #60
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Nope, old article in an issue of dragon clearly outlines that a DM may not punish a player of faith for being a true zealot ...

    There is no such thing as a good undead in PnP. The ONE exception I can recall found in an official published module and was from the realms, was a wizard who was also a devout follower of deneir the god of knowledge, He apparently was so engrossed in study that after he died from old age, deneir himself made the man a form of lich to keep on studying and keeping watch over his vast library. ...
    Don't forget Revenants.

    http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Revenant

    I am not familier with this version (that doesn't look evil) but do remember one from AD&D that I didn't remember being evil either...

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