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  1. #101
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    Oh just a FYI Diyon, I noticed you were using the negative level bug to get things to fail saves:

    ------------------------
    /'However I am VERY sceptical that you would have the DC to get Storm of Vengeance to hit for full damage and even moreso having Earthquake hitting reliably on EE contents.

    The save only applies to the lightning strikes in it. The acid portion has no save against it. As to earthquake hitting reliably in EEs? No it doesn't, I never claimed to do so, however I do have something like a 35+ish DC, that in combo with the rate that I neg level stuff I can get stuff to fall to it on EE, I just can't make a room instantly fall over. Same neg lvling also lets me get stuff frozen with Jaws of Winter. So no its not reliable, but still good enough to be useful with the neg lvling I do./'

    --------------------------

    The bug is that lifestealing proc is going off on every crit instead of only a few crits like the description says. The patch notes for update 20 specifically say they are fixing this, so you will be playing without any DC abilities again shortly...

    Negative levels are currently the fastest way to kill EE Eveningstar content. So when you say your druid without TWF is fine, but use a different bug that is definitely more powerful and being patched out, I definitely 100% believe you, but don't know if it will hold true in the future. The last post in my Natural Evolution wolf build breaks down how to use negative leveling to trivially kill mobs and links the patch notes.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-15-2013 at 05:47 AM.

  2. #102
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Oh just a FYI Diyon, I noticed you were using the negative level bug to get things to fail saves:

    ------------------------
    /'However I am VERY sceptical that you would have the DC to get Storm of Vengeance to hit for full damage and even moreso having Earthquake hitting reliably on EE contents.

    The save only applies to the lightning strikes in it. The acid portion has no save against it. As to earthquake hitting reliably in EEs? No it doesn't, I never claimed to do so, however I do have something like a 35+ish DC, that in combo with the rate that I neg level stuff I can get stuff to fall to it on EE, I just can't make a room instantly fall over. Same neg lvling also lets me get stuff frozen with Jaws of Winter. So no its not reliable, but still good enough to be useful with the neg lvling I do./'

    --------------------------

    The bug is that lifestealing proc is going off on every crit instead of only a few crits like the description says. The patch notes for update 20 specifically say they are fixing this, so you will be playing without any DC abilities again shortly...

    Negative levels are currently the fastest way to kill EE Eveningstar content. So when you say your druid without TWF is fine, but use a different bug that is definitely more powerful and being patched out, I definitely 100% believe you, but don't know if it will hold true in the future. The last post in my Natural Evolution wolf build breaks down how to use negative leveling to trivially kill mobs and links the patch notes.
    I've seen those notes, however I was never aware that it is 100% a bug. And still not in fact, as those notes are not 100% clear. Have you confirmed this is indeed what the notes are doing in practice on Lamannia? I haven't been there to check. In any case, if this change goes through as something like that, the effect will be entirely dependent on what exactly said "chance" is.

    Either way, I don't expect to unable to perform with this build after the update.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  3. #103
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    The problem with twf is not for a deep level druid build but splashing 2 druid to monk heavy build.

    This give the unarmed die from monk to druid form.

    16 monk gives 3[w] to dire wolf die of 1d8
    Shintao empty handed mastery gives d2 to wolf weapon die. dire wolf goes to 1d10
    Monk can equip 2 weapons and is considered unarmed. can use stunning fist with 2 weapons.
    improved martial art feat for 1[w]
    reinforced fist for 0.5[w]
    A dance of flower for 1.5[w] twist
    Dancing with flame for 0.75[w]
    past life monk 0.5[w]
    Power attack 0.5[w] twist

    3 + 1 + .5 +1.5 +.75 +.5 +.5 = 7.75[1d10]

    I probably forgot other things to beef up the weapon die.

    One solution is to changed animal form unarmed weapon type to something else but still benefit from being centered weapon monk.
    Last edited by IBCrabin; 10-15-2013 at 02:13 PM.

  4. #104
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    The real coup is to combine monk die steps with a weapon with a high crit profile as a monk/fighter/Wand+Scroll mastery combo. This lets you use dance of flower and improved power attack +2W with LD and class weapon crit effects, so you end up with 5d10 +50 doubled to 10d10+100.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-15-2013 at 02:18 PM.

  5. #105
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    This is just to say you can get a high weapon die using monk and the crazy damage with twf and unarmed. I did not add strength modifier or deadly item to the damage calculation.

    The Crit profile is easily boosted with over whelming critical feat, dreadnaught critical multiplier and master earth stance, bumping it up to 6x at a cost of .75[w] dancing with flame being in gmof.

    If you go wisdom build, the stunning fist will land quite a bit for an extra 50% helpless damage.

    Crit profile from weapon doesn't get added to animal form. The multiplier always stay at 19-20/x3 . only IC/bludgeon make the dice go to 17-20/3
    Last edited by IBCrabin; 10-15-2013 at 02:26 PM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBCrabin View Post
    This is just to say you can get a high weapon die using monk and the crazy damage with twf and unarmed.
    My idea of crazy damage is taking the 10d10 +100 centered fighter/monk and multiplying it by blitz, then doubling it with Mornh stunning blow and sense weakness twist, ending up with a 4 digit number per hit, and killing an 18k health target in 5 seconds. Its dps described with a k, kdps, or krazydps. But I'm sorta biased, since I have a 28 sorc.

    TY all, these discussions have helped me really understand mechanics of what is going on. I'm good to go now.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-15-2013 at 03:43 PM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBCrabin View Post
    The problem with twf is not for a deep level druid build but splashing 2 druid to monk heavy build.

    This give the unarmed die from monk to druid form.

    16 monk gives 3[w] to dire wolf die of 1d8
    Shintao empty handed mastery gives d2 to wolf weapon die. dire wolf goes to 1d10
    Monk can equip 2 weapons and is considered unarmed. can use stunning fist with 2 weapons.
    improved martial art feat for 1[w]
    reinforced fist for 0.5[w]
    A dance of flower for 1.5[w] twist
    Dancing with flame for 0.75[w]
    past life monk 0.5[w]
    Power attack 0.5[w] twist

    3 + 1 + .5 +1.5 +.75 +.5 +.5 = 7.75[1d10]

    I probably forgot other things to beef up the weapon die.

    One solution is to changed animal form unarmed weapon type to something else but still benefit from being centered weapon monk.
    This is not an entirely correct comparison. While wolf form does get the benefit of die steps plus high crit range. Is also should lose the off-hand attack bonus.

    Wolf vs monk melee has always basically been about big hits vs more hits. Notwithstanding any bugs at the moment.
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  8. #108
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    I've been able to look at all the discussions and then take a step back and look at animal form damage and different approaches. It's been really helpful. People are talking about adding some 1d10's, or even 1d2's, or some crit multiplier from earth stance. Some are talking about stunning, interactions with ED, double strike, level drain mechanics, etc.

    I have a 28 sorc. This gives me an outside perspective on damage. My sorc has a 13d6 fireball SLA and uses it at around 700 spell power, for ~100d6, AoE, so 300d6 when I hit 3 targets. If anyone were to try to suggest how a few 1d10s, or 1d2s or a small amount of crit from earth stance was significant to that 300d6 total damage fireball, I'd find it pretty funny. Honestly, that 300d6 fireball is just a regular solid attack, and I would never even consider anything that added a few more damage die to it seriously. That's why sorcs are generally shiradi instead of draconic.

    A good damage attack is a 470 spell power energy burst twist cast at level 37 (7 enhancement + 2 twilight levels), for 4745 base damage, multiplied by 1.5 for the mobs I made helpless with shiradi, and multiplied by 1.3 for crit for 9k AoE damage, or 27k damage for 3 targets. Again, if anyone were to try to suggest to add a few 1d10s, or 1d2s, or a small amount of crit from earth stance if they even worked to that 27k total damage energy burst, I would be busting at the seams. Imagine if EE knuckles and monk splash added a few die 10's (even if multiplied by spell power/spell crit/helplessness) to that 27k energy burst or fireball. Would it be viable to do so? If the answer is no, why then does it suddenly become viable to base your druid around adding a few die 10's to your druid attacks? An insignificant amount multiplied by a decent attack speed (or spell mechanics, if it worked) is still, in the grand scheme, insignificant.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    In the grand scheme, I think we've been too focused, simply because we didn't know better or are unwilling to accept what it takes to do animal form dps. We have been optimizing how to best add more or less insignificant amounts of damage on top of base druid damage and missing the big picture. The big picture is that we already know how top of the line weapon melee damage is done. We just need to adapt it.

    Step 1) Solid weapon melee damage involves a decent damage bonus from a stat, deadly, PA, some spells, enhancements, and abilities. This ones easy. Have decent strength and gear, PA, and some enhancements.

    Step 2) Solid weapon melee damage involves extra attacks from TWF or THF. This ones easy, TWF works with animal forms. You can also boost this with lots of different effects.

    Step 3) Solid weapon melee damage involves beating on a helpless mob with bonus damage to helpless mobs. This ones also easy. Stunning blow and/or fist, and ED abilities that involve helplessness (Sense Weakness, Anvil of Thunder), Enhancement abilities that involve helplessness (Bully, No Mercy, Ear Smash, etc.)

    Step 4) Solid weapon melee damage involves a good critical profile. This ones also easy. IC:B, Monk Earth Stance, Barb critical rage, LD Headman's Chop, Devastating Critical (Fighter Kensai doesn't work in forms, it boosts the weapon instead).

    Step 5) Solid weapon melee damage involves a good ED. We know you want Fury or LD for raw melee damage. Fury is out since animal form doesn't get crit from adrenaline. So we have LD. Which leaves us with Blitz, +250% damage.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    So how good is simply abandoning any pretense of adding die steps and simply copying how other melee do good dps? How about a 5 barb 9 druid 6 fighter, LD TWF.

    I'm going to assume the build and enhancements from the last Natural Evolution level drain build, since it is being nerfed in update 20. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...32#post5134232

    Step 1) Assume you end up with 55 damage/hit. Approximate, a tad low, incorporates seeker.

    Step 2) 4.85 hits/second, since you miss on 1s. Math is in Natural Evolution post. Can get more if you want.

    Step 3) Ear Smash, Stunning blow, Anvil of Thunder to apply helpless. Sense Weakness twist plus Bully is 95% bonus damage to helpless. I'm thinking level drain mabar gem in an axe to help land stunning blow, or maybe 3, or a drow axe with stunning blow ... hmm so many options ...

    Step 4) 15-18x3, 19-20x5 profile with axe equipped and berserked. 16 bonus hits worth of damage per 19 hits, or 84% bonus damage (1's are a miss).

    Step 5) Blitz 250% bonus damage.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    So multiply this out:
    55 damage/hit x 4.855 hits/second x 1.95 x 1.84 x 3.5 = 3.35 kdps.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes, that is dps described with a k, kdps, or krazydps.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyone know if limbchopping from sever works in animal form? Every other really unique proc I've tried doesn't.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Sever
    Last edited by Tilomere; 03-11-2014 at 03:27 PM.

  9. #109
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    Now that I know what TWF actually can do for a druid, I think it needs to stay.

    The first reason is every other class with a melee aspect can fill in one or more steps to allow a strong multiclass character that hits kdps, or epic level dps. The only step that druid brings is attacks, since wolf crit profile is worse than gear currently available, druid damage of 1d10 base is worse than gear currently available, and druids bring nothing to the table to help make a mob helpless or beat on a helpless mob. All a druid brings is attacks. If that is removed, druid multiclass combos are dead.

    The second reason is that if it is removed, not only are multiclass combos dead, but there will be nothing to use the TWF feats on other than maximize, empower, and quicken. This will cause bear form to dissappear, and collapse all the different wolf crit, sneak attack, spell fueling, and other misc. builds all down to a single spell fueling build. It won't be a choice on what you play or pick 1-24 if there are only 9 viable animal form feats. (3xNF, 2xshield, 3xmeta, IC:B). While some prefer this simplicity, I don't think this is why a lot of players pick DDO.

    The last is that while it does allow kdps builds, other more powerful builds (centered PDK 2x Nightmare ftr/monk/palis spring to mind) have kdps plus no-fail saving throws, evasion, knockdown resistance due to higher than average strength, and no-fail scroll healing x HAMP, while also maintaining high health, armor, and PRR. So it isn't fundamentally offering something not offered by other combos, but it is adding to variety by offering it in a different way. At least the druid version has weaknesses built in of having lower saving throws, feats, health, berserking to prevent use of UMD, etc. So it is really powerful unless things don't go your way, like a sorc.

    Does it need tweaking as to power level? I don't know. The kdps scenarios are being partially addressed in U20 with the lifestealing nerf. I'm just beginning to grasp what real melee dps is. But I think it would diminish variety by removing it.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-15-2013 at 10:10 PM.

  10. #110
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    stuff... more stuff...
    I think you have some miss-information on wolf crits and attack speed. First off, as far as i know base wolf attack rate follows the sword and board speed (then multiplied by the 30%). I have no evidence other then I read that somewhere.

    You can not get increased crit multipler in fighter for wolf attacks. I have tested this on lamaland and was never able to manage it. If you have do give the details please. I don't know if barb crit rage increases it but it seams likely.

    Many of the attacks that require weapons from LD might not work, but some might. When dealing with what works with wolf weapons its important to test out every thing. For example, the poison stance that monks get in nija spy which applies poison damage on crits does not work when wielding a handwrap (in wolf form) but does work when wielding shortswords (in wolf form).

    My guess on the highest attacks/sec you could get would be 9 druid/3 ranger/fighter? sword and board, ranger 20% attack boost, shield double strike, 18% natural fighting, killer and fatal harrier. But once again, that would have to be tested. I know you cant be in a fighter stance that requires a shield in animal form.

    Stunning fist is amazing tool but to get it viable in anything past the high road you need serious gear and slot investment as well as fighter/dwarf/wf/PL.

    If you have mannyshot then you can still be very viable in fury of the wild but that again takes a serious feet investment. LD is great on paper but getting it charged up fast really requires the cleave line, again more feats.

    Master blitz: when it works it absolutely wrecks everything. Once again its a iffy thing. It can be hard to charge, you have 15 seconds to get it running if your not cairfull it can slip away, zone through an instance and its gone! Another melee toon blitzing? good luck getting yours rolling. A raid? no mobs to charge up on. What I'm saying is that in many quests LD becomes a destiny with only action boosts for a druid.

    I currently have a 13 druid/6monk/1fvs. I have some experience with melee druids but more with caster druids.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    I think you have some miss-information on wolf crits and attack speed. First off, as far as i know base wolf attack rate follows the sword and board speed (then multiplied by the 30%). I have no evidence other then I read that somewhere. --- I used hasted TWF speed, instead of unarmed, based on very last calculation in other thread. No one knows what it is exactly.

    You can not get increased crit multipler in fighter for wolf attacks. I have tested this on lamaland and was never able to manage it. --- Barb crit rage works. I would assume that kensai martial arts focus should work for a fighter/monk/druid for critical range (and multiplier through earth stance) for much the same effect.

    Many of the attacks that require weapons from LD might not work, but some might. When dealing with what works with wolf weapons its important to test out every thing. For example, the poison stance that monks get in nija spy which applies poison damage on crits does not work when wielding a handwrap (in wolf form) but does work when wielding shortswords (in wolf form). --- I've tested most things. Read up on things I haven't tested. It is also why I have been simplifying my builds. When your auto attack hits for kdps, the details on everything else aren't important.

    Stunning fist is amazing tool but to get it viable in anything past the high road you need serious gear and slot investment as well as fighter/dwarf/wf/PL. --- This is what is bugged on live. On live, you can just use a life stealing affix for a few seconds. It may be feasible to make it work with mabar gems in the future. Or you could use barb or LD attacks to make the mob helpless. It may be possible to get a triple mabar level drain socketed axe in the future...and use ear smash and LD axe attack first to get some time to debuff the mob for a stunning attack. Or life stealing may not be nerfed that much. Not really a concern to me, since it's not like they are going to make core components of the game not work.

    LD is great on paper but getting it charged up fast really requires the cleave line, again more feats. --- Not really a concern. I wanted to show what was possible if you stepped away from concentrating at a few die steps and looked at the big picture. There's always a few more feats available from switching to human, taking out sap, switching to fighter/monk, dropping a shield or NF feat, etc. Some enhancement moves may work as well. Details beyond why I made the build.

    Master blitz: when it works it absolutely wrecks everything. Once again its a iffy thing. -- I should hope a build that can do kdps doesn't work that well on everything. You don't have to charge blitz in animal form, but those are details that are beyond why I made the build.
    I didn't make the build to actually use it. The build is an illustration so I could understand what TWF actually meant to a druid, and to show the importance of die steps everyone seems focused on. From playing my sorc I know that good damage is described with kdps. That's why I stepped back to see what was going on because the talk here confused me. That being said, the build will wreck face, and will clear most quests far faster than any die step monk splash, because even if it isn't optimized perfectly, it has all the components of what goes into kdps.

    What I was more interested in was a model for how elements for good damage work together to form that dps. The model shows that TWF allows bonus attacks to satisfy one of the elements. If it is removed, druid multi-classing and druid splash variety will be greatly diminished. I derive enjoyment out of picking TWF feats over three metamagics since it makes my druid more unique, but also recognize it can be a tad unbalanced in extreme cases.

    Not so bad though to make up a build on the fly against conventional wisdom on druid animal form and to end up over 3k dps on a first try. You may have already known how to make melee and animal form damage work, but for me it was a huge breakthrough. You can see from my Natural Evolution post I started out far lower, evolved a bit with the level drain, but digesting and adding everything in this and other posts together just put it all into perspective for me.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-16-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  12. #112
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Something to keep in mind: Turbine is almost certainly NOT going to let this TWF bug stand. If they do anything, they may change how something already intended for animal form works or add something new, but I do not find it likely for this bug to live past U20 at the latest.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  13. #113
    Community Member elyssaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Something to keep in mind: Turbine is almost certainly NOT going to let this TWF bug stand. If they do anything, they may change how something already intended for animal form works or add something new, but I do not find it likely for this bug to live past U20 at the latest.
    First off all - You say its a bug, nothing official has been stated regarding this and I refuse to believe that turbine have missed this and other threads with questions regarding twf being wai and this leads me to think they are not sure about the status of this thing. Since if they knew for sure then then would have said so. Also the patchnotes for Lamannia concerning U20 has not so called "buggfixes" regarding this which again leads to me thinking that they are not sure about how it will be.

    Also I again say I totally agree with Tilomere... see the big picture. As I have tried to explain and even more Tilomere has explained there are many builds out there the does the job better then a wolf druid do, and THAT is part of the problem! Remove TWF and you just sink the Wolf/Bear druid to even worse status. Sure go ahead and waste your feats to become somewhat durable but the losses imo are too great.

    I have a druid that I TRed into a caster druid instead since that is viable imo whereas my first prototype of melee druid were not.

    My next concept will be a palemaster variant which has much better options of being a durable melee build then the wolf one.

    My stance as well as Tilomere seems to be, remove TWF and then you make the situation worse, and something else needs to compensate if that is removed. Personally I feel it being plain stupid that you are forced into using shields to be able to get your attacks up to do somewhat ok dps (5 feats that most other classes only needs 3 feats for). If TWF is removed then give an option to people not fancying the shields to have their attack speed increased since right now it's mandatory to take the shield feats and also somewhat mandatory to take the ED shield enhancement too... worthless setup imo.

    /E
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    First off all - You say its a bug, nothing official has been stated regarding this and I refuse to believe that turbine have missed this and other threads with questions regarding twf being wai and this leads me to think they are not sure about the status of this thing. Since if they knew for sure then then would have said so. Also the patchnotes for Lamannia concerning U20 has not so called "buggfixes" regarding this which again leads to me thinking that they are not sure about how it will be.

    Also I again say I totally agree with Tilomere... see the big picture. As I have tried to explain and even more Tilomere has explained there are many builds out there the does the job better then a wolf druid do, and THAT is part of the problem! Remove TWF and you just sink the Wolf/Bear druid to even worse status. Sure go ahead and waste your feats to become somewhat durable but the losses imo are too great.

    I have a druid that I TRed into a caster druid instead since that is viable imo whereas my first prototype of melee druid were not.

    My next concept will be a palemaster variant which has much better options of being a durable melee build then the wolf one.

    My stance as well as Tilomere seems to be, remove TWF and then you make the situation worse, and something else needs to compensate if that is removed. Personally I feel it being plain stupid that you are forced into using shields to be able to get your attacks up to do somewhat ok dps (5 feats that most other classes only needs 3 feats for). If TWF is removed then give an option to people not fancying the shields to have their attack speed increased since right now it's mandatory to take the shield feats and also somewhat mandatory to take the ED shield enhancement too... worthless setup imo.

    /E
    On the very first page of this post

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!
    Keep the twf feats and change the unarmed type die to a different weapon type die so monks will not be the big winner with 2 druid to take advantage of the 30% attack speed and critical threat range of 17-20/x3 using IC/bludgeon.

    The 30% attack speed in wolf form does stack with monk unarmed speed. Go try a 12 monk 2 druid splash vs a 12 druid 2 monk splash. You will noticed the ki charges a lot faster with the 12 monk.

  15. #115
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    Personally I feel it being plain stupid that you are forced into using shields to be able to get your attacks up to do somewhat ok dps (5 feats that most other classes only needs 3 feats for). If TWF is removed then give an option to people not fancying the shields to have their attack speed increased since right now it's mandatory to take the shield feats and also somewhat mandatory to take the ED shield enhancement too... worthless setup imo.

    /E
    This I can agree with. Having a shield shouldn't be the only viable option. An option for non shield fanciers would be great.

    Also as IBCrabin pointed out, there has already been a Turbine response in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBCrabin View Post
    The 30% attack speed in wolf form does stack with monk unarmed speed. Go try a 12 monk 2 druid splash vs a 12 druid 2 monk splash. You will noticed the ki charges a lot faster with the 12 monk.
    I want to see actual properly tested numbers for that.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  16. #116
    Community Member elyssaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    This I can agree with. Having a shield shouldn't be the only viable option. An option for non shield fanciers would be great.

    Also as IBCrabin pointed out, there has already been a Turbine response in this thread.
    My apologies, I have totally missed that... Weird since I have really been looking for an official statement regarding this and it has all the time been under my nose Thank for pointing it out..

    Thought he said " It's too early to say when <B>or if it will change</b>". So what this says is that it isn't what they thought it would be, but he doesn't either say it will not remain as it is either. So basically a pending investigation regarding this seems to be what they are up to.

    Personally I either want to see the Natural Fighting feats removed and have TWF feats work as normal, or buff the natural fighting feats so you don't need to have shield feats to be viable (I withdraw this statement since when I wrote the sentence below I realized that the natural fighting feats are needed as well as the TWF feats)

    Normally you get penalized when it comes to the amount of attacks when using shield and board instead of TWF and thus they get compensated with more double strike with the shield feats. The problem here is that since (we say TWF won't work in the future) you have no benefits whatsoever by using two weapons instead of shield and board since you don't get any extra attacks (from the TWF feats) and you don't get the extra double strike from the shield feats. So a druid that chooses not to be shield and board gets heavily shafted here. With TWF feats they do not, they have an option to use it and of course they can't use the shield feats to get extra double strike. So I think TWF should remain working AS long you are using two weapons, it should of course not work if you are shield and board user to avoid 80% offhands attack along with 50% doublestrike (static). There needs to be an option to either choose to be dual wielder (you loose the defence AC, DR, Block etc, but gain DPS) or shield and board (better defence, a bit less dps).

    /E
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

  17. #117
    Community Member elyssaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBCrabin View Post
    On the very first page of this post



    Keep the twf feats and change the unarmed type die to a different weapon type die so monks will not be the big winner with 2 druid to take advantage of the 30% attack speed and critical threat range of 17-20/x3 using IC/bludgeon.

    The 30% attack speed in wolf form does stack with monk unarmed speed. Go try a 12 monk 2 druid splash vs a 12 druid 2 monk splash. You will noticed the ki charges a lot faster with the 12 monk.
    A monk with 2 splash druid will not get 17-20/x3. Since the first base form is only 1d6 17-20/x2 (with IC:B)

    "Wolf: Transform into a wolf. While in Wolf form, your base attack speed is 30% faster, you gain a +3 bonus to attack while flanking, +1d6 sneak attack damage, and a +10% enhancement bonus to movement speed. While in wolf form, you gain access to a number of spells and enhancements that require Wolf form, but the cooldowns on your non-animal form spells are increased to 2.5 times their normal length.
    Your natural attacks do 1d6 damage, do both piercing and slashing damage, and Critically hit for double damage on a roll of 19-20."

    So to get to the x3 you need at least 8 lvls of druid.


    Those few +W that we are talking about isn't that much of an issue if you look more into it. Compare this to a TWF Kensei 18 Fighter / 2 Monk using dual Mornhs (Warhammers)

    The stats of Mornh: Mornh, Hammer of the Mountains - +7 Warhammer: 2.5[1d10], Expanded Threat: 19-20/x3, Fracturing, Magma Surge, Stunning +10, Seeker +10, Adamantine

    So the that fighter has 2.5W 1d10 and will have 15-20 x3. A 8 Druid (winterwolf) 12 monk will have 2.5W 1d10 17-20 x3. So the fighter has already here a steady advantage. Then the fighter can utilize Legendary Dreadnought to the fullest since he can use Momentum Swing and Lay Waste. He can use Anvil of Fire. He can ALSO use Pulverizer which increases the threat range with another +1 so he will get 13-20 x3, then add Devastating Critical +1 multiplier on 19-20 (this the druid can have too if choosing LD). The fighter in contrast to the druid doesn't have any problems with feats so he of course has cleave and greater cleave and overwhelming critical +1 multiplier on 19-20. So Now we have a fighter with 2.5W 1d10 13-20 x3 and 19-20 x5 to compare with the Druid 8/ Monk 12 that has 2.5W 1d10 17-20 x3. Then you can add all extra W's to the fighter that you can add to the druid.

    So it's quite clear that the wolf is not even close to compete in this department... and here people are looking at the possible +W that a monk+druid can come up with when it's nothing spectacular compare to what other melees can get.

    Or you can check out the popular barbarian/fighter eSoS builds too and see how your melee druid compares to that

    OR

    Simply check what Tilomere said about his sorcerer

    /E
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

  18. #118
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    Normally you get penalized when it comes to the amount of attacks when using shield and board instead of TWF and thus they get compensated with more double strike with the shield feats. The problem here is that since (we say TWF won't work in the future) you have no benefits whatsoever by using two weapons instead of shield and board since you don't get any extra attacks (from the TWF feats) and you don't get the extra double strike from the shield feats. So a druid that chooses not to be shield and board gets heavily shafted here. With TWF feats they do not, they have an option to use it and of course they can't use the shield feats to get extra double strike. So I think TWF should remain working AS long you are using two weapons, it should of course not work if you are shield and board user to avoid 80% offhands attack along with 50% doublestrike (static). There needs to be an option to either choose to be dual wielder (you loose the defence AC, DR, Block etc, but gain DPS) or shield and board (better defence, a bit less dps).

    /E
    Ah, here we can come to agree again. That would be an acceptable situation, although personally I think they should address what you have here in a different way of some sort.


    On another note, I still don't think people give enough credit to the +W on animal form attacks. (Although yes, a Mornh fighter does go to craziness, not saying it out does that. But people seem to like to forget that they exist in entirety)
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    The stats of Mornh: Mornh, Hammer of the Mountains - +7 Warhammer: 2.5[1d10], Expanded Threat: 19-20/x3, Fracturing, Magma Surge, Stunning +10, Seeker +10, Adamantine

    So the that fighter has 2.5W 1d10 and will have 15-20 x3. A 8 Druid (winterwolf) 12 monk will have 2.5W 1d10 17-20 x3. So the fighter has already here a steady advantage. Then the fighter can utilize Legendary Dreadnought to the fullest since he can use Momentum Swing and Lay Waste. He can use Anvil of Fire. He can ALSO use Pulverizer which increases the threat range with another +1 so he will get 13-20 x3, then add Devastating Critical +1 multiplier on 19-20 (this the druid can have too if choosing LD). The fighter in contrast to the druid doesn't have any problems with feats so he of course has cleave and greater cleave and overwhelming critical +1 multiplier on 19-20. So Now we have a fighter with 2.5W 1d10 13-20 x3 and 19-20 x5 to compare with the Druid 8/ Monk 12 that has 2.5W 1d10 17-20 x3. Then you can add all extra W's to the fighter that you can add to the druid.

    So it's quite clear that the wolf is not even close to compete in this department... and here people are looking at the possible +W that a monk+druid can come up with when it's nothing spectacular compare to what other melees can get.
    While a centered Kensei will also get bonuses like +1.5W Dance of Flowers, Fist of Iron, etc. A center melee drunk wolf with wraps will get the base monk die step bonus and plus various sneak attack bonuses. The biggest nerf to drunk builds is the AP cost of Half Elf.

    Note 8 Druid/12 Monk leaves 18% double strike at the door. A melee wolf will want at least 9 druid levels.
    Varz
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    @elyssaria

    Centered Kensai dual wielding mornhs leaves the poor druid with TWF feats in the dust even with its faster attack speed and extra damage in animal form we got in the newest update patch, on ld they can also charge blits much faster, its no contest really.

    Monks are probably the best instant killers in the game with quivering palm changes in EE's, its pretty insane. They also have insane durability, higher crit multiplier, higher unarmed die that can be upgrade to 1d8 from 1d6. My rogue is very jealous of quivering palm right now.

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