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  1. #81
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    Not completely sure that this is a bug tbh, then had to do something to the melee druids. We will see what happens though.. If they change this then they again have to change something with the melee druids. Time will tell I guess.
    It's almost 100% certain its a bug. All you have to do is go look at the original design discussions on animal forms. The devs very clearly state you are not supposed to get offhand attacks in animal form. When something like this changes suddenly without any notification, that's a bug. Unless of course it was something they were planning to do (doubt it) and it slipped in early (If this was the plan they'd almost certainly have it in the release notes), in which case it would still be a bug because it would be supposed to be here yet. Also I will state again: Druids don't need this. At least not wolf druids. Bear druids maybe need some more help (although recent changes moved some in that direction), but this isn't the way to do it.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  2. #82
    Community Member elyssaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    It's almost 100% certain its a bug. All you have to do is go look at the original design discussions on animal forms. The devs very clearly state you are not supposed to get offhand attacks in animal form. When something like this changes suddenly without any notification, that's a bug. Unless of course it was something they were planning to do (doubt it) and it slipped in early (If this was the plan they'd almost certainly have it in the release notes), in which case it would still be a bug because it would be supposed to be here yet. Also I will state again: Druids don't need this. At least not wolf druids. Bear druids maybe need some more help (although recent changes moved some in that direction), but this isn't the way to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    It's almost 100% certain its a bug. All you have to do is go look at the original design discussions on animal forms. The devs very clearly state you are not supposed to get offhand attacks in animal form. When something like this changes suddenly without any notification, that's a bug. Unless of course it was something they were planning to do (doubt it) and it slipped in early (If this was the plan they'd almost certainly have it in the release notes), in which case it would still be a bug because it would be supposed to be here yet. Also I will state again: Druids don't need this. At least not wolf druids. Bear druids maybe need some more help (although recent changes moved some in that direction), but this isn't the way to do it.
    Ok then I think I need more education in this matter....

    Scenario 1.) Lvl 20 Druid, Using dual +5 Holy Burst Scimitar of Pure Good (easy to calculate on these) and having TWF,ITWF and GTWF for a total of 80% chance off offhandattacks (not counting in any rangers splits which would increase this). For damage comparisation let's say the strength is of a score of 30 (+10 damage) and +1W damage from epic scimitar . No PA. Using IC. We are making 20 attacks.

    Attack 1: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 2: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 3: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 4: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 5: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 6: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 7: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 8: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 9: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 10: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 11: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 12: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 13: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 14: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 15: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 16: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 17: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 18: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 19: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 20: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage

    Total damage with mainhand: 897

    Then we have the offhands attacks that adds. This character has 80% chance to make an offhand attacks. Which means 16 attacks of 20 generate an extra attack. I will count it against this character by using only 4 crits on the off hands opposed to the normal 4.8 (6 crits (out of 20 attacks) x 0.8 = 4.8.

    Attack 1: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 2: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 3: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 4: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 5: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 6: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 7: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 8: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 9: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 10: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 11: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 12: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 13: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
    Attack 14: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
    Attack 15: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
    Attack 16: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage

    Total Damage with offhands: 590

    Total damage with mainhand and offhand attacks: 1487

    Scenario 2.) Lvl20 Druid in Winter Wolf form (gives 30% faster attack speed). Using +5 Holy Club of Pure Good. He has Natural Fighting feat x3 which gives a total chance of doublestrike of +18% For damage comparisation let's say the strenght is of a score of 30 (+10 damage). No extra +1 since that doesn't carry over from the weapon you use when entering wolf form. No PA Using IC. We are making 20 attacks.

    To make this fair I will count the total amount of attacks the wolf will do during the same time the other druid does 20 which is 26 (20 x 1.3 wolf attack speed boost).

    Attack 1: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 2: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 3: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 4: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 5: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 6: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 7: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 8: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 9: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 10: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 11: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 12: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 13: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 14: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 15: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 16: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 17: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
    Attack 18: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
    Attack 19: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
    Attack 20: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

    Damage: 840

    Extra attacks due to 30% extra attack speed from wolf (normal amount of crits on 6 attacks for wolf would be 6*0,2 = 1.2) but I am giving it only 1 calculated crit (he will be compensated when it comes to double strike attacks):

    Attack 21: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 22: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 23: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 24: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 25: 10,5Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 26: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

    Damage: 241

    Total Damage main hand attacks: 1081


    Double Strike attacks:

    Out of 20 attacks then 18% of these will be doublestrikes (20*0,18 = 3,6) but I will calculate with 4 attacks, compensating from the rounding down on crits with the extra attacks above, I will even give one extra crit which normally out of 4 attacks would yield 0,8 crits (4x0,2)

    Attack 21: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 22: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 23: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 24: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

    Total Damage Double Strikes: 179

    Total Damage Mainhands, Extra attacks + Doublestrike attacks = 1260


    Sofar the druid NOT in wolf form deals more damage even when I penalize him and adds extra advantage to the wolf. 1487 for the scimitar druid vs 1260 for the wolf druid.

    There are some things we have not yet calculated...

    # Wolf Druid gets sneak attack damage in wolf form (8d6= 28 per hit) if the target is allowed to take damage from sneak attacks. So with a total amount of attacks of 20 normal + 6 extra attack speed + 4 doublestrike which equals to 30 hits then the total amount of damage would be 30*28= 840 which is a good deal extra damage. Also the Wolf Druid gets 9 extra damage per hit from enhancements which is an extra of 270 damage


    # The Scimitar druid don't get the penalty to the cooldowns on spells, he can can also use 2.5W weapons like Balizarde which would give him 6,75 damage extra per attack which from 1,5W extra damage = 36*6,75 = 243 and it had x3 multiplier which would 57,75 extra damage on mainhand crits is 6 times so 346,5 extra damage there then the off hand crits yields 42,75 extra per hit which is 4x 42,75 = 171 damage. So by this weapon only it gets 760,5 damage which works ALL the time since it's not sneak attack damage. You also don't suffer from the cooldown penalty that animal forms gives you. If you want to add more dps then you can multiclass and take 2 monk lvls and being half elf and end up with 5d6 sneak attack damage (17.5 per hit x 36 hits = 630 damage). All this using a full specced caster druid with all the hot stuffs in Season's Herald 42 points and 22 points into Natures Warrior for the Wis bonuses, Fatal harrier and DoubleStrike boost.

    I guess you can see my point here...being a full specced caster with the exception that I took PA, IC and TWF feats + Maximise + EV Focus + Empower Healing & Empower then I dare to say that I can deal out better DPS (if not at least equal). This makes me question your remark saying that the wolf DPS is fine. Also this doesn't need to be any druid it can be a Fvs, Wiz, Ranger, Fighter, Rogie or pick your choice. The more melee heavy the more dps will you have and going caster the more utility and caster dps you will have... and in most cases you should easily keep up with the wolf dps as long you are dual wielding. This is the reason why I am saying that the wolf needs something to compensate if the TWF feats won't work anymore. Of course as wolf you can go with the shield and shield feats, which will give you a bit more dps too, but still not compensating the weapons you can choose as a weapon wielder or the sacrifices you have to do to your spells ie bye bye EV focus (=-3 DC to Evocation spells) and one of the metamagics.
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

  3. #83
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    Ok then I think I need more education in this matter....

    Scenario 1.) Lvl 20 Druid, Using dual +5 Holy Burst Scimitar of Pure Good (easy to calculate on these) and having TWF,ITWF and GTWF for a total of 80% chance off offhandattacks (not counting in any rangers splits which would increase this). For damage comparisation let's say the strength is of a score of 30 (+10 damage) and +1W damage from epic scimitar . No PA. Using IC. We are making 20 attacks.

    Attack 1: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 2: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 3: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 4: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 5: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 6: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 7: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 8: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 9: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 10: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 11: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 12: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 13: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 14: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
    Attack 15: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 16: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 17: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 18: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 19: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
    Attack 20: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage

    Total damage with mainhand: 897

    Then we have the offhands attacks that adds. This character has 80% chance to make an offhand attacks. Which means 16 attacks of 20 generate an extra attack. I will count it against this character by using only 4 crits on the off hands opposed to the normal 4.8 (6 crits (out of 20 attacks) x 0.8 = 4.8.

    Attack 1: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 2: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 3: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 4: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 5: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 6: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 7: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 8: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 9: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 10: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 11: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 12: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
    Attack 13: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
    Attack 14: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
    Attack 15: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
    Attack 16: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage

    Total Damage with offhands: 590

    Total damage with mainhand and offhand attacks: 1487

    Scenario 2.) Lvl20 Druid in Winter Wolf form (gives 30% faster attack speed). Using +5 Holy Club of Pure Good. He has Natural Fighting feat x3 which gives a total chance of doublestrike of +18% For damage comparisation let's say the strenght is of a score of 30 (+10 damage). No extra +1 since that doesn't carry over from the weapon you use when entering wolf form. No PA Using IC. We are making 20 attacks.

    To make this fair I will count the total amount of attacks the wolf will do during the same time the other druid does 20 which is 26 (20 x 1.3 wolf attack speed boost).

    Attack 1: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 2: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 3: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 4: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 5: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 6: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 7: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 8: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 9: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 10: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 11: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 12: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 13: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 14: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 15: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 16: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 17: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
    Attack 18: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
    Attack 19: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
    Attack 20: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

    Damage: 840

    Extra attacks due to 30% extra attack speed from wolf (normal amount of crits on 6 attacks for wolf would be 6*0,2 = 1.2) but I am giving it only 1 calculated crit (he will be compensated when it comes to double strike attacks):

    Attack 21: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 22: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 23: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 24: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 25: 10,5Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 26: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

    Damage: 241

    Total Damage main hand attacks: 1081


    Double Strike attacks:

    Out of 20 attacks then 18% of these will be doublestrikes (20*0,18 = 3,6) but I will calculate with 4 attacks, compensating from the rounding down on crits with the extra attacks above, I will even give one extra crit which normally out of 4 attacks would yield 0,8 crits (4x0,2)

    Attack 21: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 22: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 23: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
    Attack 24: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

    Total Damage Double Strikes: 179

    Total Damage Mainhands, Extra attacks + Doublestrike attacks = 1260


    Sofar the druid NOT in wolf form deals more damage even when I penalize him and adds extra advantage to the wolf. 1487 for the scimitar druid vs 1260 for the wolf druid.

    There are some things we have not yet calculated...

    # Wolf Druid gets sneak attack damage in wolf form (8d6= 28 per hit) if the target is allowed to take damage from sneak attacks. So with a total amount of attacks of 20 normal + 6 extra attack speed + 4 doublestrike which equals to 30 hits then the total amount of damage would be 30*28= 840 which is a good deal extra damage. Also the Wolf Druid gets 9 extra damage per hit from enhancements which is an extra of 270 damage


    # The Scimitar druid don't get the penalty to the cooldowns on spells, he can can also use 2.5W weapons like Balizarde which would give him 6,75 damage extra per attack which from 1,5W extra damage = 36*6,75 = 243 and it had x3 multiplier which would 57,75 extra damage on mainhand crits is 6 times so 346,5 extra damage there then the off hand crits yields 42,75 extra per hit which is 4x 42,75 = 171 damage. So by this weapon only it gets 760,5 damage which works ALL the time since it's not sneak attack damage. You also don't suffer from the cooldown penalty that animal forms gives you. If you want to add more dps then you can multiclass and take 2 monk lvls and being half elf and end up with 5d6 sneak attack damage (17.5 per hit x 36 hits = 630 damage). All this using a full specced caster druid with all the hot stuffs in Season's Herald 42 points and 22 points into Natures Warrior for the Wis bonuses, Fatal harrier and DoubleStrike boost.

    I guess you can see my point here...being a full specced caster with the exception that I took PA, IC and TWF feats + Maximise + EV Focus + Empower Healing & Empower then I dare to say that I can deal out better DPS (if not at least equal). This makes me question your remark saying that the wolf DPS is fine. Also this doesn't need to be any druid it can be a Fvs, Wiz, Ranger, Fighter, Rogie or pick your choice. The more melee heavy the more dps will you have and going caster the more utility and caster dps you will have... and in most cases you should easily keep up with the wolf dps as long you are dual wielding. This is the reason why I am saying that the wolf needs something to compensate if the TWF feats won't work anymore. Of course as wolf you can go with the shield and shield feats, which will give you a bit more dps too, but still not compensating the weapons you can choose as a weapon wielder or the sacrifices you have to do to your spells ie bye bye EV focus (=-3 DC to Evocation spells) and one of the metamagics.
    DId you count the 50% doublestrike from the wolf? Note this is before the boosts which put it at over 100% for the duration of the boost and spell combination. Looks like you accounted for 18%. The other 32% non boosted and 82% (or higher) boosted puts the wolf well over anyone who isnt built to use special weapons.

    I think PURE wolf builds need some love, but when multiclassed, they also get monk damage dice coefficient - ive got one thats 7.5(1d10) after feats, twists, and a TR. It plays more like a melee ranger than a druid though.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-09-2013 at 05:58 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #84
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    snip--
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    DId you count the 50% doublestrike from the wolf? Note this is before the boosts which put it at over 100% for the duration of the boost and spell combination. Looks like you accounted for 18%. The other 32% non boosted and 82% (or higher) boosted puts the wolf well over anyone who isnt built to use special weapons.

    I think PURE wolf builds need some love, but when multiclassed, they also get monk damage dice coefficient - ive got one thats 7.5(1d10) after feats, twists, and a TR. It plays more like a melee ranger than a druid though.
    Pretty much what Chai here said. A pure wolf form druid with shield stuff can get a flat out extra 15% double strike. Then you can get up to 50% with another twist and gear (6% and 3% black armor). Sure, you're non-wolf TWF could get that 32% also but all but 10% total would apply to offhand attacks. So wolf is getting more mileage out of any doublestrike. Plus you get a bunch of extra PRR and AC from the shield stuff. Every five minutes I bring my double strike up to 94% for 15 seconds, and the doublestrike boost brings it up to 80% for 20 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.

    You also did not include anything from the wolf attack spells. Those add lots of +W. I'm not saying a humanoid form druid can't do good melee dps either. But I'm saying wolf is fine, I get decent spell dps from storm of vengeance and creeping cold on the side. Sleet storm means I can get SA whenever I want just about. Also wolf form gets 20 temp SP on 17-20 and doesn't need to use a lot of castery spells to kill stuff. My wolfs SP can last way way longer than a non wolf druid's, or for that matter, most other casters.

    As to the cooldowns, with natural adept I rarely need even notice the slightly longer cooldowns except when buffing. I just almost never spam cast anything, I never need to.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  5. #85
    Community Member elyssaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Pretty much what Chai here said. A pure wolf form druid with shield stuff can get a flat out extra 15% double strike. Then you can get up to 50% with another twist and gear (6% and 3% black armor). Sure, you're non-wolf TWF could get that 32% also but all but 10% total would apply to offhand attacks. So wolf is getting more mileage out of any doublestrike. Plus you get a bunch of extra PRR and AC from the shield stuff. Every five minutes I bring my double strike up to 94% for 15 seconds, and the doublestrike boost brings it up to 80% for 20 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.

    You also did not include anything from the wolf attack spells. Those add lots of +W. I'm not saying a humanoid form druid can't do good melee dps either. But I'm saying wolf is fine, I get decent spell dps from storm of vengeance and creeping cold on the side. Sleet storm means I can get SA whenever I want just about. Also wolf form gets 20 temp SP on 17-20 and doesn't need to use a lot of castery spells to kill stuff. My wolfs SP can last way way longer than a non wolf druid's, or for that matter, most other casters.

    As to the cooldowns, with natural adept I rarely need even notice the slightly longer cooldowns except when buffing. I just almost never spam cast anything, I never need to.
    Hi again

    Well as I mentioned in my conclusion I said you could get up to 50% permanent double strike, but that also cost you 2 feats and twists as you mentioned. Also I didn't count the boosts since they are very situational... and also the caster I mentioned above has the +20% Doublestrike boost taken from the Natures Warrior tree.. obviously he doesnt have the 5 min cooldown ability which imo is way to long cooldown since it isn't that great.

    I intentionally didn't mention the wolf attack spells since in their current incarnation with the totally borked DC they are fubar and not worth the hazzle imo. Once that is fixed then I might reevaluate. Sleet storm is a clear use for a humanoid druid meleeing too.. even more in a caster spec since quicken helps the really long cast time on Sleetstorm. The temp SP is imo the ONLY thing I miss from the natures warrior tree since it would let me use spells a bit more, especially the wolf attacks spells when they are fixed. I should say though with the SLA's its not really a concern to me that much since I rarely run out of sp's completely, but as said the 20 temp SP is nice. However I am VERY sceptical that you would have the DC to get Storm of Vengeance to hit for full damage and even moreso having Earthquake hitting reliably on EE contents.

    I am not saying that the wolf is totally borked by any means, I am saying that I think it's suffering when you have alot of different builds not build to be melees doing the same or close to the same damage then a melee build wolf. Also with all those specific weapons out there today I think that gap gets wider too.

    Also I saw a notice from another poster regarding the +W from monks and yes thats completely true, but then you are sacrificing even more of the imo good utility that the wolf has. Personally I simply want to see more distinction and difference with a melee build and a non melee build when it comes to melee dps. In my world a non specific melee should never ever even be close to the damage of a fully specified wolf. The sacrifices that you have to do with a feat starved druid to get the wolf to be decent in melee are quite heavy, but doesn't give you any super advantage over other builds that doesn't have to do the same.

    This is of course my personal view and doesn't mean that everyone have to agree with it, but it react when I see some people praising it so much when there are alot better builds out. Also the natures warrior enhancement tree is really dull still imo:

    For example:

    Enhancements that I would consider pretty worthless:


    Tier1:

    Aggravate
    Shifting Rake
    Athletic

    Tier2:

    Hide of the Crocodile - Way to long cooldown to be worth it
    Bloodmoon Frenzy - Pets and summons are not much to have in EE content, only use I somewhat can appreciate is that a cleric hireling can run faster and not slacking behind as much

    Tier3:

    Reaving Roar - The damage is ridiculus at higher lvls and especially EE contents. Useful in the very beginning

    Tier4:

    Essence of the Turtle - Way worse ability compared to the wolf one. A wolf will have at least 20% per hit to gain his 20 SP. A Bear 5% each time he gets hit.

    Tier 5:

    Celerity - The cooldown says it all.


    Then we have the somewhat useful abilities: Beastial nature, Four legs Good.. I would really like them if it wasn't that they are competing with Fatal Harrier

    So out of the whole tree there are a few I find really good:

    Action Boost: Double Strike
    Both Wis increases
    Fatal Harrier
    Vengeful Hunter
    Fight
    Alpha Strike
    Essence of the Shrike
    Natural Adept

    Thats 9 out of 23 enhancements... to compare that to Season's Herald 18 (eventually 19 if you are very much into decreasing the cost of metamagics, I usually settle with Maximise) of 25.

    So there are for sure room for improvements to the wolfs. I would say:

    # Fix wolf attack spells DC's, they don't work a **** in the higher contents
    # If TWF is taken away then they need to have some other kind of boost that not require them to spend 5 feats out of the normal 7 you get during lvling up (Nat. Atk x3 + Shield feats x2)to even come close to be comparable
    # Fix most of the useless or close to useless enhancements in the wolf tree

    Not to much to ask for imo

    **edit ** Something I haven't tried yet... when in wolf form do you get the effects of the mainhand weapon only or do both weapons effects come along to wolf attacks if you are dual wielding ie two clubs instead of 1 club and a shield??

    /E
    Last edited by elyssaria; 10-09-2013 at 08:19 PM.
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

  6. #86
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    Hi again

    Well as I mentioned in my conclusion I said you could get up to 50% permanent double strike, but that also cost you 2 feats and twists as you mentioned. Also I didn't count the boosts since they are very situational... and also the caster I mentioned above has the +20% Doublestrike boost taken from the Natures Warrior tree.. obviously he doesnt have the 5 min cooldown ability which imo is way to long cooldown since it isn't that great.

    I saw, I was just pointing out that doublestrike point for point adds more to wolves than TWFers. Also yes two more feats but it is worth it for the PRR, 15% doublestrike, and AC IMO. I completely agree that the 5 minute cooldown is overkill, lower the cooldown, increase the duration, something.

    I intentionally didn't mention the wolf attack spells since in their current incarnation with the totally borked DC they are fubar and not worth the hazzle imo. Once that is fixed then I might reevaluate.

    Yes the DCs are not useful but they are attacks dealing +2W, +4W, +6W, and +10W(if you include Alpha Strike). And since they come free most of the time, I consider them worth it, I spam them constantly.

    Sleet storm is a clear use for a humanoid druid meleeing too.. even more in a caster spec since quicken helps the really long cast time on Sleetstorm.

    I have quicken on my wolf (and maximize). But I mainly brought up this because you mentioned not being able to get SA all the time. I also use Precision and black dragon armor for those fortified things. Possibly twist in grim precision once I get 2 more fate points (the other two would be L.shield mastery and hail of blows). The point being the SA damage is pretty reliable if I want it to be.

    However I am VERY sceptical that you would have the DC to get Storm of Vengeance to hit for full damage and even moreso having Earthquake hitting reliably on EE contents.

    The save only applies to the lightning strikes in it. The acid portion has no save against it. As to earthquake hitting reliably in EEs? No it doesn't, I never claimed to do so, however I do have something like a 35+ish DC, that in combo with the rate that I neg level stuff I can get stuff to fall to it on EE, I just can't make a room instantly fall over. Same neg lvling also lets me get stuff frozen with Jaws of Winter. So no its not reliable, but still good enough to be useful with the neg lvling I do.


    I am not saying that the wolf is totally borked by any means, I am saying that I think it's suffering when you have alot of different builds not build to be melees doing the same or close to the same damage then a melee build wolf. Also with all those specific weapons out there today I think that gap gets wider too.

    I don't think this is as close as you think at least not to one well built.

    Also I saw a notice from another poster regarding the +W from monks and yes thats completely true, but then you are sacrificing even more of the imo good utility that the wolf has. Personally I simply want to see more distinction and difference with a melee build and a non melee build when it comes to melee dps. In my world a non specific melee should never ever even be close to the damage of a fully specified wolf. The sacrifices that you have to do with a feat starved druid to get the wolf to be decent in melee are quite heavy, but doesn't give you any super advantage over other builds that doesn't have to do the same.

    Generally agree with the monk stuff. I love the defensive perks of going with a shield build.

    This is of course my personal view and doesn't mean that everyone have to agree with it, but it react when I see some people praising it so much when there are alot better builds out. Also the natures warrior enhancement tree is really dull still imo:

    For example:

    Enhancements that I would consider pretty worthless:


    Tier1:

    Aggravate
    Shifting Rake
    Athletic

    Agree, although aggravate can be nice with the right build. Whether that build is nice is another story.

    Tier2:

    Hide of the Crocodile - Way to long cooldown to be worth it
    Bloodmoon Frenzy - Pets and summons are not much to have in EE content, only use I somewhat can appreciate is that a cleric hireling can run faster and not slacking behind as much

    Agree again. Bloodmoon Frenzy I would maybe have interest for a completely insane but awesome build. However this requires multiple copies of a very hard to make item so will probably never happen (but it would be awesome!).

    Tier3:

    Reaving Roar - The damage is ridiculus at higher lvls and especially EE contents. Useful in the very beginning

    Agreed.

    Tier4:

    Essence of the Turtle - Way worse ability compared to the wolf one. A wolf will have at least 20% per hit to gain his 20 SP. A Bear 5% each time he gets hit.

    Agreed, still nice to take if you ever use bear though.

    Tier 5:

    Celerity - The cooldown says it all.

    What I said above on it. Still worth taking though, as I do like the other T5 stuff, and its only a couple points at that point.

    Then we have the somewhat useful abilities: Beastial nature, Four legs Good.. I would really like them if it wasn't that they are competing with Fatal Harrier

    Bestial Nature doesn't stack with parrying items and stuff like that so I don't like it very much. Four Good Legs I love. Fatal harrier they nerfed the duration, so I don't find it worth it anymore, not compared to knockdown immunity.

    So out of the whole tree there are a few I find really good:

    Action Boost: Double Strike
    Both Wis increases
    Fatal Harrier
    Vengeful Hunter
    Fight
    Alpha Strike
    Essence of the Shrike
    Natural Adept

    Thats 9 out of 23 enhancements... to compare that to Season's Herald 18 (eventually 19 if you are very much into decreasing the cost of metamagics, I usually settle with Maximise) of 25.

    Something to note, I DO have most of the season's herald enhancements as well.

    So there are for sure room for improvements to the wolfs. I would say:

    # Fix wolf attack spells DC's, they don't work a **** in the higher contents Yes agreed.
    # If TWF is taken away then they need to have some other kind of boost that not require them to spend 5 feats out of the normal 7 you get during lvling up (Nat. Atk x3 + Shield feats x2)to even come close to be comparable I agree this could use some work because you are right, it IS expensive. There's a reason I went human. I just don't think they need to throw TWF in there. Perhaps make natural fighting two feats "natural fighting (8%)" and "Improved Natural Fighting (10%).
    # Fix most of the useless or close to useless enhancements in the wolf tree

    Not to much to ask for imo

    **edit ** Something I haven't tried yet... when in wolf form do you get the effects of the mainhand weapon only or do both weapons effects come along to wolf attacks if you are dual wielding ie two clubs instead of 1 club and a shield??

    If you are talking about offhands with the bug, I have no clue. Normally the offhand applies no weapon effects.

    /E
    Comments in green.

    I'm not saying that wolf can't use some tweaking. The intense feat tax is kind of out there. I just don't think that TWF feats are the answer, and had to point out that wolf druids aren't as far behind as people here are saying, as long as it is built well.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  7. #87
    Community Member elyssaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Comments in green.

    I'm not saying that wolf can't use some tweaking. The intense feat tax is kind of out there. I just don't think that TWF feats are the answer, and had to point out that wolf druids aren't as far behind as people here are saying, as long as it is built well.
    It appears that we agree to quite many things after all I am not the advocate that says TWF has to be there, but I am the one saying Wolf needs some fixes and if they remove TWF then there needs to be something else. I also agree with you that raising the natural fighting feats to maybe 10% each would be a decent solution along with the fixes of the natures warrior tree

    Just removing the TWF working with Wolfs would simply make it worse for the wolves when they still need some tweaking, also we have to remember that the TWF line is not coming for free. You have to invest 3 feats to get there and that along with 3 natural fighting feats and 2 shield feats... then oooooooooooooooppss we are out of feats even being a human.. Where did the other good stuff go that we need to have like IC, PA, Maximise, Quicken, Precision etc etc.

    /E
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

  8. #88
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    Just removing the TWF working with Wolfs would simply make it worse for the wolves when they still need some tweaking, also we have to remember that the TWF line is not coming for free. You have to invest 3 feats to get there and that along with 3 natural fighting feats and 2 shield feats... then oooooooooooooooppss we are out of feats even being a human.. Where did the other good stuff go that we need to have like IC, PA, Maximise, Quicken, Precision etc etc.

    /E
    This is one of the reasons why I don't want to see TWF left in. They become a no brainer and just utterly break an already heavily stretched feat list. Its a very low choice situation with feats for a melee focused pure wolf druid as it is, but it can work. Toss TWF into the mix and it just screws everything up. More feats is not the answer to anything here no matter what degree the situation is.

    EDIT: This would be EXACTLY like, if they decided to make quarterstaffs usable as double weapons and use TWF, but still allowed you to count it as THF at the same time with 1.5x str bonus and glancing blows (in PnP if you choose to TWF you don't treat it as using a 1.5x str mod, but normal 1x and .5x for offhand. Don't recall if PA works the same way there). It's getting too much and potentially overstraining feat taxing.
    Last edited by Diyon; 10-10-2013 at 09:19 AM.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    This is one of the reasons why I don't want to see TWF left in. They become a no brainer and just utterly break an already heavily stretched feat list. Its a very low choice situation with feats for a melee focused pure wolf druid as it is, but it can work. Toss TWF into the mix and it just screws everything up. More feats is not the answer to anything here no matter what degree the situation is.

    EDIT: This would be EXACTLY like, if they decided to make quarterstaffs usable as double weapons and use TWF, but still allowed you to count it as THF at the same time with 1.5x str bonus and glancing blows (in PnP if you choose to TWF you don't treat it as using a 1.5x str mod, but normal 1x and .5x for offhand. Don't recall if PA works the same way there). It's getting too much and potentially overstraining feat taxing.
    Any other character using a shield is using a bastard sword or dwarven axe or other weapon that allows glancing blows while using a shield and using THF + Shield Feats. The THF feats give them glancing blows on top of normal attacks, and the shield feats give them the same doublestrike they give druids.

    TWF + shield feats is not dissimilar in ultimate effect to existing use of THF + shield feats. It is superior against a single mob, and inferior against a group of mobs. This was one of the primary reason bear druids failed up to now. They simply could not take advantage of additional AoE attacks a THF + shield character could, so they couldn't deal respectable dps, couldn't hold aggro against multiple targets, and couldn't hit fast enough. If you take TWF away from animal form, it is going to break bear again. In addition, a non-druid gets shield bashes as well.

    The game is designed and requires a shield using tank getting additional attacks above and beyond shield double strike in order to function. You do realize when a dwarven fighter sword and board swings through a 5 attack animation that 1, 3, and 4 get cleaving glancing blows, and 1-5 all may double strike and shield bash.

    Wolf can always be converted to fueling spells. If memory serves an essence of the shrike 3 monk/17 druid using light finishers gets an 18 mana mass regen, and access to tons of SLAs now.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-11-2013 at 09:02 PM.

  10. #90
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Any other character using a shield is using a bastard sword or dwarven axe or other weapon that allows glancing blows while using a shield and using THF + Shield Feats. The THF feats give them glancing blows on top of normal attacks, and the shield feats give them the same doublestrike they give druids.

    TWF + shield feats is not dissimilar in ultimate effect to existing use of THF + shield feats. It is superior against a single mob, and inferior against a group of mobs. This was one of the primary reason bear druids failed up to now. They simply could not take advantage of additional AoE attacks a THF + shield character could, so they couldn't deal respectable dps, couldn't hold aggro against multiple targets, and couldn't hit fast enough. If you take TWF away from animal form, it is going to break bear again. In addition, a non-druid gets shield bashes as well.

    The game is designed and requires a shield using tank getting additional attacks above and beyond shield double strike in order to function. You do realize when a dwarven fighter sword and board swings through a 5 attack animation that 1, 3, and 4 get cleaving glancing blows, and 1-5 all may double strike and shield bash.

    Wolf can always be converted to fueling spells. If memory serves an essence of the shrike 3 monk/17 druid using light finishers gets an 18 mana mass regen, and access to tons of SLAs now.
    As I said, somewhere in one of my posts here. Bears are probably still in the hurt. I have been primarily referring to wolf druids. Essence of the turtle barely ever gives you SP in tanking mode (I was recently in EE Belly of the beast and was tanking the big arena waves. They could barely touch me in my setup, so I never go the temp SP, and thus my SP drained out much faster than usual). They did give pure builds a 15% attack speed buff, which helps, but still feels lacking.

    As to normal shield users and THF and glancing blows, the animal for doesn't get glancing blows, but doublestrikes another 18%. That may not make up tanking, but on a wolf with 30% faster attack it goes a long way.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  11. #91
    Community Member elyssaria's Avatar
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    Ok, since we are discussing attacks quite alot...

    Could someone of you explain to me exactly how many attacks per minute the following setups yield:

    1.) A monk using wraps (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

    2.) A druid using two scimitars (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

    3.) A Wolf Druid using two clubs (no stances, using Natural Fighting x 3)

    4.) A Wolf Druid using a club and a shield (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF + Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery)

    Really looking forward to see the results of this!

    Thanks in advance!

    /E
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    Ok, since we are discussing attacks quite alot...

    Could someone of you explain to me exactly how many attacks per minute the following setups yield:

    1.) A monk using wraps (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

    2.) A druid using two scimitars (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

    3.) A Wolf Druid using two clubs (no stances, using Natural Fighting x 3)

    4.) A Wolf Druid using a club and a shield (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF + Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery)

    Really looking forward to see the results of this!

    Thanks in advance!

    /E
    go wiki, look for attack sequence, do ur calcs
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  13. #93
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    Ok, since we are discussing attacks quite alot...

    Could someone of you explain to me exactly how many attacks per minute the following setups yield:

    1.) A monk using wraps (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

    2.) A druid using two scimitars (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

    3.) A Wolf Druid using two clubs (no stances, using Natural Fighting x 3)

    4.) A Wolf Druid using a club and a shield (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF + Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery)

    Really looking forward to see the results of this!

    Thanks in advance!

    /E
    Going off of this https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-and-Formulae/

    Keep in mind doublestrike doesn't apply to offhand except from PTWF and not all these attacks are equal on each (TWF 1/2 STR offhand on druid). Also no haste. Numbers will be very slightly off for druids since these are calculated on 20 BAB, but it is a small difference (It's about 1% faster than BAB15). Number three is also assuming there is a 20% offhand attack with no TWF feats as of this bug.

    1.) 93.2*1.05+93.2*.8*1.1=
    179.876

    2.) 86.7*1.05+86.7*.8*1.1=
    167.331

    3.) 86.5*1.3*1.18+86.5*.2=
    149.991

    4.) 86.5*1.3*1.13+86.5*.8*1.1=
    203.1885

    Now for some additional ones. We can get much higher doublestrike. I'm going to show number of attacks with 50% doublestike WITH all the TWF feats working (So shield masteries, TWF, etc). And also what my druid gets without TWF at all (50% doublestrike still).

    Everything) 86.5*1.3*1.5+86.5*.8*1.1=
    244.795

    Mine without bug) 86.5*1.3*1.5=
    168.675

    Finally, to be fair lets compare a nonmonk TWF with the 12% extra doublestrike I get from gear and nonshield destiny stuff (17%).

    86.7*1.17+86.7*.8*1.1=
    177.735

    EDIT: I would have gone included haste, but as the number of attacks you actually get with speed bonuses like that (wolf is different, its an animation base mod) scale differently, and I don't no where one-handed/sword and board fall on that chart and whether wolf could be extrapolated off of that, I didn't include it. The base numbers other than twitching or monk unarmed are all almost the same at base speed anyways, so I just used fTHF for the wolf (It starts off the slowest by .1-.2 less).
    Last edited by Diyon; 10-13-2013 at 01:57 PM.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

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    A 20 fighter using bastard sword/shield will have 19% double strike from kensai enhancements, and an average of 12% double strike from StD enhancements. Added to 18% double strike for new bastard sword, and 15% double strike from shield effects, this fighter will end up with 64% double strike.

    With 86.6 base attacks/minute (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-and-Formulae) this fighter will go through 17.32 5 attack rotations/min

    Each 5 attack rotation will make 3 glancing blow attacks on attacks 1, 3, and 4, (weaker but AoE cleave), so it really counts as an 8 attack rotation.
    Double strike on the 5 attack rotation will cause double glancing blow attacks on 1, 3 and 4, so has effectively full effect. So each 8 attack rotation will effectively hit 13.12 attacks/rotation.
    A dwarven fighter will also receive 12 shield bashes while attacking for 1 minute.

    13.12 attacks/rotation x 17.32 rotations/min + 12 shield bashes = 239.24 attacks/minute

    Also without haste.

    -----------------

    I thought wolf was unarmed table at 30% base enhancement bonus to attack speed. So 129 attacks/min at full BaB?
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-13-2013 at 04:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    A 20 fighter using bastard sword/shield will have 19% double strike from kensai enhancements, and an average of 12% double strike from StD enhancements. Added to 18% double strike for new bastard sword, and 15% double strike from shield effects, this fighter will end up with 64% double strike.

    With 86.6 base attacks/minute (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-and-Formulae) this fighter will go through 17.32 5 attack rotations/min

    Each 5 attack rotation will make 3 glancing blow attacks on attacks 1, 3, and 4, (weaker but AoE cleave), so it really counts as an 8 attack rotation.
    Double strike on the 5 attack rotation will cause double glancing blow attacks on 1, 3 and 4, so has effectively full effect. So each 8 attack rotation will effectively hit 13.12 attacks/rotation.
    A dwarven fighter will also receive 12 shield bashes while attacking for 1 minute.

    13.12 attacks/rotation x 17.32 rotations/min + 12 shield bashes = 239.24 attacks/minute

    Also without haste.

    -----------------

    I thought wolf was unarmed table at 30% base enhancement bonus to attack speed. So 129 attacks/min at full BaB?
    Hmmm interesting... yea the wolf really looks competetive.. Still confirms the what I have thought from the beginning. It needs some tunings. Also the fighter has like a trillion of feats to take where the druid is very feat starving. Then a fighter have alot more good damage boosting abilities from kensai, and since staying pure it should have quite a few enhancement points to use for a good race that can boost the specific weapon you are using. For example a Dwarf with Dwarven Axe, alot of damage boosts with that combo. So not only more attacks in base, a lot more damage and even more important alot more damage of the glancing blows too..

    I think unarmed table requires you to have unarmed strike (ie from monks)...

    This thread is good... it truly brings up issues and ideas to be taken further
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I thought wolf was unarmed table at 30% base enhancement bonus to attack speed. So 129 attacks/min at full BaB?
    Wolf does not use the unarmed portion of the table. That is specifically for monk unarmed animation. Also, the speed bonuses on that table reflect how those speed bonuses effect different styles. A 20% speed bonus doesn't give precisely the same increase across all styles in practice. The wolf speed increase doesn't apply to that table because it's not a speed bonus to any of those animations; it is a different animation that is 30% faster than the typical ones. So as long as we're using the first line of numbers on the table, we're pretty safe taking one of the nontwitch, nonmonk ones and multiplying it by 1.3. Beyond that is uncertain without going through the careful testing that Vanshilar has been so good at.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Mine without bug) 86.5*1.3*1.5=
    168.675

    Finally, to be fair lets compare a nonmonk TWF with the 12% extra doublestrike I get from gear and nonshield destiny stuff (17%).

    86.7*1.17+86.7*.8*1.1=
    177.735
    Something to note here. My druid is only inflicting about 9 attacks less per minute that my example TWFer here, and all of those attacks have full STR bonus to them (numbers at zero speed bonuses, with no temporary doublestrikes or anything of that sort).

    That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially considering the defensive bonuses I get out of that as well.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Something to note here. My druid is only inflicting about 9 attacks less per minute that my example TWFer here, and all of those attacks have full STR bonus to them (numbers at zero speed bonuses, with no temporary doublestrikes or anything of that sort).

    That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially considering the defensive bonuses I get out of that as well.
    I think a flaw in your analysis is that you are comparing your full druid setup against a hypothetical TWF without any enhancements or a gear setup for that TWF. When you do the full analysis, like what I did for the fighter above, the numbers change greatly. Until I did the math I myself didn't have any idea that a simple 86 base attack/minute sword and board fighter actually ended up with 239 attacks/minute.

    And my number may be low since I don't understand shield bash mechanics.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-14-2013 at 04:43 AM.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Something to note here. My druid is only inflicting about 9 attacks less per minute that my example TWFer here, and all of those attacks have full STR bonus to them (numbers at zero speed bonuses, with no temporary doublestrikes or anything of that sort).

    That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially considering the defensive bonuses I get out of that as well.
    That's true, but a person using weapons can have better chance to crit, he can cast spells without any extra cooldown, he doesn't get the -2 int/cha, he can get access to the good stuff in the in the juggernaut ED like Momentum Swing, Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, Anvil of Thunder, Pulverizer or Headmans Chop depending on what weapon you are using.

    Also you have the option of unarmed monk splash that also get the full strength on all hits. Without the limitations of the wolf.
    Cannith - Characters: Khierra - Former The Dominator (U7) (TR 12Mnk/7rog/1ftr) now becoming 13 Rogue/6 Monk/ 1 Druid Staff Orc # Tisseltass - The Prodigy (10rgr/2rog/1mnk) # Smallpoxx (14 pure shintao monk, healing amp) # Azatooth (12ftr/5rog/1mnk) # Eleona (15fvs/2mnk) # Heliga Birgitta (7cleric/3monk, Healing Amp)

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I think a flaw in your analysis is that you are comparing your full druid setup against a hypothetical TWF without any enhancements or a gear setup for that TWF. When you do the full analysis, like what I did for the fighter above, the numbers change greatly. Until I did the math I myself didn't have any idea that a simple 86 base attack/minute sword and board fighter actually ended up with 239 attacks/minute.

    And my number may be low since I don't understand shield bash mechanics.
    That analysis isn't flawed because the goal of that those particular posts were intended to demonstrate amount of attacks, not demonstrate dps viability. Note I didn't include anything but stuff relevant to attack speed in that analysis, that was intended. I can come out with more detailed damage notes later. Also, remember my build is not supposed to be a dps king. It is good dps + healing + various support + survivability.

    Quote Originally Posted by elyssaria View Post
    That's true, but a person using weapons can have better chance to crit, he can cast spells without any extra cooldown, he doesn't get the -2 int/cha, he can get access to the good stuff in the in the juggernaut ED like Momentum Swing, Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, Anvil of Thunder, Pulverizer or Headmans Chop depending on what weapon you are using.

    Also you have the option of unarmed monk splash that also get the full strength on all hits. Without the limitations of the wolf.
    I do have a 17-20/x3 19-20/x4 crit. While not amazing is still a good profile. I've mentioned before that I very, very rarely every need to cast a spell on cooldown. One exception is storm of vengeance but generally I save that for where it will be efficient (not one or two monsters typically) so generally have it when it's needed. So the cooldown thing with the capstone reducing the penalty is pretty much unnoticeable to me. I don't use int or cha for anything except NPC diplomacy dialogues. While that's true about the dreadnought ED, unarmed monks are in the exact same boat in that regard.

    As to the monk unarmed, well that applies to every TWFer that isn't an unarmed monk (or I suppose an unarmed grandmaster without monk but who does that?) or perhaps a Tempest (I think that's way up in the tree somewhere). If I was looking for a pure super DPS, then I'd make one of these things, but that's not typically what druid is about.

    -It's fully self-reliant as far as healing goes and can extend it to others.
    -Incredibly durable for dps spec.
    -Provides decent CC to good CC (situation dependent)
    -Is extremely versatile. I adjusted destinies and tanked the entire arena portion of EE In the Belly of the Beast while self healing. I've tanked SR in EH FoT with my own healing. I've healed numerous raids and groups. I've kited where stuff needs kiting. I've CC'd for groups and raids (doesn't mean I can handle every scenario, but I generally know my limits).
    -Extremely SP efficient caster. As long as I'm not required to do heavy healing my lower SP pool will typically outlast any other caster because of how often I get temporary SP.

    These are the benefits I have that not every DPS spec character has.

    When I get up to it I'll pull out some specific damage calculations, although trying to account for activated attacks is very difficult. I'll probably calculate without them and list them along side.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

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