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  1. #41
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    It seems you should just leave it in and change it to WAI.
    I'd add to this announce it when you change it to wai, some of us aren't altering builds to take advantage of it since you'll probably fix it soon, but since it shouldn't be fixed like the poster I quoted said please don't and announce that you've changed your mind to it being wai.

  2. #42
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    I have not played a druid yet.

    But honestly this does seem silly.

    Monks get bonus's for TWF feats using their hands.

    But druids are not suppose to get bonus using the TWF for using their hands, even if their hands are claws?

    That really does not make sense.

    It seems you should just leave it in and change it to WAI.
    Honestly, it does make sense if you go by pnp paper standards (you can do it in PnP, can also do it with staffs). HOWEVER, all that stuff melds into your form and becomes inactive, so if we get this, we get no equipment unless it is specifically designed, which just won't work for DDO. The only prestige that would do something like this is daggerspell shaper. Which I actually wouldn't mind seeing for a PrE.

    I know pretty much everyone here seems to disagree, but this should NOT be made WAI. It would be overpowered. The only way this might be a good idea as WAI is if the TWF is made exclusive from the natural attack line, which would really only make it better significantly for the monk multiclasses that can't make use of the awesome use of a shield in form, which by the posts in this thread may make everyone happy anyways. But I'm still of the opinion it shouldn't be WAI.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Honestly, it does make sense if you go by pnp paper standards (you can do it in PnP, can also do it with staffs). HOWEVER, all that stuff melds into your form and becomes inactive, so if we get this, we get no equipment unless it is specifically designed, which just won't work for DDO. The only prestige that would do something like this is daggerspell shaper. Which I actually wouldn't mind seeing for a PrE.

    I know pretty much everyone here seems to disagree, but this should NOT be made WAI. It would be overpowered. The only way this might be a good idea as WAI is if the TWF is made exclusive from the natural attack line, which would really only make it better significantly for the monk multiclasses that can't make use of the awesome use of a shield in form, which by the posts in this thread may make everyone happy anyways. But I'm still of the opinion it shouldn't be WAI.
    I notice you don't actually play a druid.
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  4. #44
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    I don't understand where the pro-power for druid players are coming from here. Druid melee isn't weak without the 2wf feats working. Is it as strong as a focused fighter/barb? No. Can a fighter/barb take 1 second of their time to drop a 1 click full health heal on themselves? No. That's the way this game works and everyone here knows the definition of balance.

    Saw the same thing a while back when people were talking about the supposed paladin dps nerf after the enhancement change. Everyone was up in arms because paladins STILL couldn't do as much dps as a fighter or barb. Yet the fighters and barbs STILL had **** saves and no self healing.

    Gotta take a step back and really think about what's being asked for here. If druid forms had melee ability comparable to a fighter would it be balanced? If Kensai got +50 spell points and ascending Cure Wound spells added to it's core abilities would it be balanced?

  5. #45
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I agree that stacking TWF + Natural Fighting + 30% base atk speed - on top of everything else a wolf druid can do - is / would be OP. But shifter druids definitely needed a DPS buff. The biggest mistake Turbine made is the lack of +[W] modifiers for druids, since weapon mods don't carry over. A simple solution would be to add +0.5[W] for each Natural Fighting feat (in addition to the doublestrike bonuses), with maybe another +0.5 or 1[W] from the capstone. This would help them keep up with other melees and scale with level to keep pace with the Paragon weapons.
    Last edited by unbongwah; 09-27-2013 at 02:58 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    I don't understand where the pro-power for druid players are coming from here. Druid melee isn't weak without the 2wf feats working. Is it as strong as a focused fighter/barb? No. Can a fighter/barb take 1 second of their time to drop a 1 click full health heal on themselves? No. That's the way this game works and everyone here knows the definition of balance.

    Saw the same thing a while back when people were talking about the supposed paladin dps nerf after the enhancement change. Everyone was up in arms because paladins STILL couldn't do as much dps as a fighter or barb. Yet the fighters and barbs STILL had **** saves and no self healing.

    Gotta take a step back and really think about what's being asked for here. If druid forms had melee ability comparable to a fighter would it be balanced? If Kensai got +50 spell points and ascending Cure Wound spells added to it's core abilities would it be balanced?
    Can you please quote the person that said that Druids should do as much DPS as a fighter or barb? Did you actually read what anyone said, or do you just enjoy the challenge of kicking the straw men of your imagination?

    The problem isn't that druids don't do fighter DPS, the problem is that they loose dps by going into animal form instead of swinging a cleaver/esos/eag/skybreaker.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 09-27-2013 at 03:30 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I agree that stacking TWF + Natural Fighting + 30% base atk speed - on top of everything else a wolf druid can do - is / would be OP. But shifter druids definitely needed a DPS buff. The biggest mistake Turbine made is the lack of +[W] modifiers for druids, since weapon mods don't carry over. A simple solution would be to add +0.5[W] for each Natural Fighting feat (in addition to the doublestrike bonuses), with maybe another +0.5 or 1[W] from the capstone. This would help them keep up with other melees and scale with level to keep pace with the Paragon weapons.
    Agreed that the natural fighting feats would need to go. The "+30% base attack speed" thing is overstated. Wolves don't get 30% more attacks than other toons most of the time. Their first two attacks in the sequence are slow, and these animations are used a lot more than the back end ones. And other toons get nice animations also: monks attack at +10%, 2hf toons that autocleave or twitch attack ~20% faster, etc. The basic wolf animation is pretty nice, but it's no where near 30% better than others.

    Animals should just work like a monk where the main hand weapon transforms into wraps. On top of the weakness of the current system it's intuitive and byzantine. New players always struggle with it and gimp their toons in the process. That reason alone is enough to ditch it.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Agreed that the natural fighting feats would need to go. The "+30% base attack speed" thing is overstated. Wolves don't get 30% more attacks than other toons most of the time. Their first two attacks in the sequence are slow, and these animations are used a lot more than the back end ones. And other toons get nice animations also: monks attack at +10%, 2hf toons that autocleave or twitch attack ~20% faster, etc. The basic wolf animation is pretty nice, but it's no where near 30% better than others.

    Animals should just work like a monk where the main hand weapon transforms into wraps. On top of the weakness of the current system it's intuitive and byzantine. New players always struggle with it and gimp their toons in the process. That reason alone is enough to ditch it.
    The 30% also doesn't stack with haste.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    The 30% also doesn't stack with haste.
    To what extent there is a 30% boost (see above) it does stack with haste. The 30% is just a faster animation, not an actual bonus. You definitely attack faster when hasted as a wolf...

    I just logged on to double check this since you're usually so reliable, and haste definitely works.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    To what extent there is a 30% boost (see above) it does stack with haste. The 30% is just a faster animation, not an actual bonus. You definitely attack faster when hasted as a wolf...

    I just logged on to double check this since you're usually so reliable, and haste definitely works.
    my mistake, yeah I know what I was thinking of now, but you are right I had things confused. I'm blaming it on the cold medicine today, umm yeah....

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Can you please quote the person that said that Druids should do as much DPS as a fighter or barb? Did you actually read what anyone said, or do you just enjoy the challenge of kicking the straw men of your imagination?

    The problem isn't that druids don't do fighter DPS, the problem is that they loose dps by going into animal form instead of swinging a cleaver/esos/eag/skybreaker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Well good to know!

    I'm not sure how NF feats alone compensates for 100% offhand TWF with kensai centered mountain stance fighter/monk/X using Axe of Adaxus in LD with 18x4 19-20x8 base crit profiles though...

    Wolves used to be able to supplement their melee damage with ice breaths, reaving roar, decent spells, and decent healing (hybrid nature), but that all went away in update 19. I used to run a wonderful ice-cleave-reaving AoE build.
    Quote Originally Posted by IBCrabin View Post
    I was stating the issue with the current U19 with twf feats and proposed a solution to make druid animal more competitive with other melee builds.
    Not to mention the few other posters who seem to think that 90% offhand attacks with 50% (sometimes 100) doubletrike using the equivalent of an improved epic khopesh on an already improved attack speed rate.

    Get real.

    *edit*

    Oh and by the way...

    If I could hit level 8 Druid and suddenly shift into the dps equivalent of cleaver/esos/eag/skybreaker then I'd be playing by myself. This game would be irrevocably broken.

    Like I said before, think about what you're asking for.
    Last edited by Emerge2012; 09-27-2013 at 04:52 PM.

  12. #52
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    The "+30% base attack speed" thing is overstated. Wolves don't get 30% more attacks than other toons most of the time. Their first two attacks in the sequence are slow, and these animations are used a lot more than the back end ones. And other toons get nice animations also: monks attack at +10%, 2hf toons that autocleave or twitch attack ~20% faster, etc. The basic wolf animation is pretty nice, but it's no where near 30% better than others.
    In which case they should fix the animation / atk sequence so wolves actually attack 30% faster like they're supposed to. I'm sure they'll get right on that, along with all the other atk speed bonuses which aren't WAI - or at least don't match their descriptions.

    "Hi, AA rangers just called from 2009, want to know when capstone will be WAI kthxbye"


    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    The 30% also doesn't stack with haste.
    You might be confusing it with wolf run speed, which is enhancement-based so it doesn't stack w/Haste, Striding, etc.

  13. #53
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    You might be confusing it with wolf run speed, which is enhancement-based so it doesn't stack w/Haste, Striding, etc.
    That is exactly what I did.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    Not to mention the few other posters who seem to think that 90% offhand attacks with 50% (sometimes 100) doubletrike using the equivalent of an improved epic khopesh on an already improved attack speed rate.
    Khopesh? you mean that gimp weapon nobody uses? And when did 1d10 become better than 3d8 anyway? Remember no +w for wolves.

    Why shouldn't druids get the same off-hand strike that *every other class gets* not just "fighters and barb." Natural fighting and S&B doublestrike probably should go if wolves can 2wf, but it's not nearly as big a deal as you make out. Those stats include: 2wf x3, shield mastery x2, nat fighting x3 (along with a lot of other BS that no real build could fit to get to 50-100% doublestrike). You'll never fit all that in anyway. Oh, and by the way fighters and barbarians can self heal just fine in all content. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Flawless-Solo

    As far as the quotes go, the first guy is talking about the forms with a mind towards deep splashes that use wolf. Adding in the Kensai bonuses is unreasonable, but the basic point about 2wf vs. wolf is valid. The second guy just says "melee" which includes bards and clerics not just ftr/bbn. No one is saying a druid 20 should do the DPS of a ftr or bbn, just that you shouldn't be miles behind bards, clerics, favored souls, and artificers.

    Oh and by the way...

    If I could hit level 8 Druid and suddenly shift into the dps equivalent of cleaver/esos/eag/skybreaker then I'd be playing by myself. This game would be irrevocably broken.

    Like I said before, think about what you're asking for.
    What are you talking about? You want to compare at lvl 8, fine. Wolf still does less DPS than swinging a decent weapon as a druid out of wolf form. You don't even have natural fighting at lvl8. You do the DPS of a S&B cleric as a wolf, but with gimped spell cooldowns. And that is the absolute high point for wolf fighting vs. weapon fighting, It's all down hill from there.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 09-27-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Khopesh? you mean that gimp weapon nobody uses? And when did 1d10 become better than 3d8 anyway? Remember no +w for wolves.

    Why shouldn't druids get the same off-hand strike that *every other class gets* not just "fighters and barb." Natural fighting and S&B doublestrike probably should go if wolves can 2wf, but it's not nearly as big a deal as you make out. Those stats include: 2wf x3, shield mastery x2, nat fighting x3 (along with a lot of other BS that no real build could fit to get to 50-100% doublestrike). You'll never fit all that in anyway. Oh, and by the way fighters and barbarians can self heal just fine in all content. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Flawless-Solo

    As far as the quotes go, the first guy is talking about the forms with a mind towards deep splashes that use wolf. Adding in the Kensai bonuses is unreasonable, but the basic point about 2wf vs. wolf is valid. The second guy just says "melee" which includes bards and clerics not just ftr/bbn. No one is saying a druid 20 should do the DPS of a ftr or bbn, just that you shouldn't be miles behind bards, clerics, favored souls, and artificers.

    What are you talking about? You want to compare at lvl 8, fine. Wolf still does less DPS than swinging a decent weapon as a druid out of wolf form. You don't even have natural fighting at lvl8. You do the DPS of a S&B cleric as a wolf, but with gimped spell cooldowns. And that is the absolute high point for wolf fighting vs. weapon fighting, It's all down hill from there.
    Scroll healing is not one click, it's not the same, not even remotely the same. Done.

    Plenty of people in this thread (yes I read it, did you?) recount how to get better than base damage on a wolf. Done.

    Getting insanely high static doublestrike on a wolf is quite easy. Is it static 80-100% like some of the 2wf builds? No. Does getting static full str bonus on the 2nd attack make up for it. Yes.

    Weapons properties do in fact merge into wolf form. Which means that you aren't limited to the junk khopeshes in the game. As I said before, you get an improved khopesh that uses the properties of the weapon of your choice.

    The following quote is the one that I think you really need to read again. Druid melees aren't gimp at all and like most problems with most builds it usually comes down to the player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Ok, for one thing look at the recent changes today. My wolf druid just got from the changes: 3 AC, 10 PRR, 65 positive spell power, +6 Base damage, +1 STR, +1 DEX, +1 CON, +2 Bluff, +2 intimidate.

    That aside, my melee wolf druid (pure build) is easily my best character right now and they have all lvl ups in WIS. I can solo some epic elites with it, epic hard is generally a cake walk. Me and guildy went and duo'd the Druid's Deep chain on EE today. I have 80+ AC, 80 PRR, 8d6+13 sneak attack, and 50% doublestrike without using doublestrike boost or celerity. I gather up large groups of monsters and systematically destroy them. Since this update, I have 297 positive spell power not including maximize (a little more if summer kicks in). This is easily the hardest of my characters to kill.

    The only reason I can think of as to why all of you are thinking melee animal form is junk is that you are either doing it wrong, or have been watching others do it wrong.

    (btw someone said use wraps because of the die step. This is not true, you get that regardless of weapon in animal form. Pretty much anything that affects unarmed affects animal form attacks, from reinforced fists, using stunning fist, and tod burst rings. I use a holy burst ring. So use kamas or shortswords and use the offhand slot for more stats like seeker or stunning or whatever. **Another edit** unless you are not a monk, in which case use a shield.)

  16. #56
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    Plenty of people in this thread (yes I read it, did you?) recount how to get better than base damage on a wolf. Done.
    Getting that high of a base weapon mod requires a very large monk splash at which point your healing is not much better than a ranger or pally, and they will do more dps with a esos or cleaver.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    Scroll healing is not one click, it's not the same, not even remotely the same. Done.
    How is it not "remotely" the same? It's healing. It works in EE. A bit less convenient, sure, but not a big deal. And if you're dying for one-click healing twist cocoon.

    Plenty of people in this thread (yes I read it, did you?) recount how to get better than base damage on a wolf. Done.
    They are mostly wrong, as is the guy you quoted. You do not get +w from weapons.

    Charon's build is fine, but that's a 9/9/2, it's not so much a druid as a monk that uses winter wolf. That's a build that really should be compared DPS wise to true melees. He's not dropping earthquakes or mass regen.

    Getting insanely high static doublestrike on a wolf is quite easy. Is it static 80-100% like some of the 2wf builds? No. Does getting static full str bonus on the 2nd attack make up for it. Yes.
    No, it doesn't. You're just wrong, wolf is still way behind.

    Weapons properties do in fact merge into wolf form. Which means that you aren't limited to the junk khopeshes in the game. As I said before, you get an improved khopesh that uses the properties of the weapon of your choice.
    crappy proc effects are only a minor part of the problem with peshes. The real "problem" is that they're competing against weapons with even better crit ranges like balazarde, esos, sireth, mornh (with pulverizor), etc.

    The following quote is the one that I think you really need to read again. Druid melees aren't gimp at all and like most problems with most builds it usually comes down to the player.
    That guy was wrong, as I'm sure you knew as you read the thread. And "I do fine in EE with my guild group" means jack, Albus the hireling does fine in EE with my guild groups. As are out of context numbers (80 PRR? where's that coming from? same with 50% static doublestrike, what are you giving up for that?). Wolf DPS is way behind 2wf and 2hf, and requires more feats (shield feats +nat fighting). Throw around out-of-context numbers all you want, it's still unreasonable that you take a melee nerf by using a form that nerfs your spellcasting.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    How is it not "remotely" the same? It's healing. It works in EE. A bit less convenient, sure, but not a big deal. And if you're dying for one-click healing twist cocoon.

    They are mostly wrong, as is the guy you quoted. You do not get +w from weapons.

    Charon's build is fine, but that's a 9/9/2, it's not so much a druid as a monk that uses winter wolf. That's a build that really should be compared DPS wise to true melees. He's not dropping earthquakes or mass regen.

    No, it doesn't. You're just wrong, wolf is still way behind.

    crappy proc effects are only a minor part of the problem with peshes. The real "problem" is that they're competing against weapons with even better crit ranges like balazarde, esos, sireth, mornh (with pulverizor), etc.


    That guy was wrong, as I'm sure you knew as you read the thread. And "I do fine in EE with my guild group" means jack, Albus the hireling does fine in EE with my guild groups. As are out of context numbers (80 PRR? where's that coming from? same with 50% static doublestrike, what are you giving up for that?). Wolf DPS is way behind 2wf and 2hf, and requires more feats (shield feats +nat fighting). Throw around out-of-context numbers all you want, it's still unreasonable that you take a melee nerf by using a form that nerfs your spellcasting.
    I'm just gonna make 3 simple points, from least important to most.

    1 - 4 monk levels and a + die step item equates to an extra 1[w] on a 1d10 base. Add in weapon effects of your choice and there's no comparison to any khopesh in the game other than range/mod. By the way range/mod are a pretty big deal and yet you still keep talking about casting ability as a consequence to dps. You think you should get full heals without a gear swap and top tier dps? Maybe your wolf should equal a eSoS Kensai that can cast full fledged earthquakes and raid heal. Maybe you're sleeping.

    2 - Scroll healing is not remotely the same as one click full heals because it's not one click and it's not full. This alone should be /thread for you.

    3 - 80 prr and 50% doublestrike are attainable. Just because you don't know how to build for them doesn't mean it's not possible.

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    I know for a fact that the highest sustained TWF+NF group dps druids tops out around 1100 dps. I did the math here:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...78#post5106678

    In addition, I made my now lvl 26 1 ranger 2 monk 17 druid with EE knuckles a TWF + NF druid, so I know for a fact that I do less than 1k dps in reality, probably closer to 700, as my gear isn't perfect yet. My druid has 5.5d10.

    In contrast, my 400 spell power lvl 27 sorc. with 32% crit casts energy burst as follows:

    15+1d15 x lvl base = 22.5x33 = 742.5 base (27 sorc. lvls + 6 caster lvl).
    400 spell power = 3712.5
    32% crit = 4900/hit

    ~5 mobs/group = 24,502 damage, or 1.1k dps for pushing 1 button, once every twenty-ish seconds.

    Bugged, using a min/maxed build and optimal gear, a perfectly synergized TWF + NF + ED druid does do as much total damage in 20 seconds that my Sorc does in 2 pushing one button. In reality, a well geared TWF + NF + ED druid is out-dpsed by only using energy burst twist on any decently geared caster.

    Bugged or not, animal druids are not even close to good dps, or even druid caster form dps. One is always better served using energy burst in a spell power setup, unless you find animal form fun.

    We are just having fun with TWF since animal form druids at high levels are merely bad dps, which is viable.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 09-28-2013 at 01:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    I'm just gonna make 3 simple points, from least important to most.

    1 - 4 monk levels and a + die step item equates to an extra 1[w] on a 1d10 base. Add in weapon effects of your choice and there's no comparison to any khopesh in the game other than range/mod. By the way range/mod are a pretty big deal and yet you still keep talking about casting ability as a consequence to dps. You think you should get full heals without a gear swap and top tier dps? Maybe your wolf should equal a eSoS Kensai that can cast full fledged earthquakes and raid heal. Maybe you're sleeping.

    2 - Scroll healing is not remotely the same as one click full heals because it's not one click and it's not full. This alone should be /thread for you.

    3 - 80 prr and 50% doublestrike are attainable. Just because you don't know how to build for them doesn't mean it's not possible.
    1. As as been mentioned a dozen times to your deaf ears *weapon die steps do not work in animal form with weapons other than wraps* so you can't get die step and a *weapon of your choice.* And that goes no mater how many times you repeat yourself.

    And again, *Khopeshes*? Who cares, peshes suck. The right comparison is to actual good weapons that people use.

    2. Scroll healing very much can be a full heal.

    3. There are all kinds of things that are attainable, far fewer that are attainable without gimping another aspect of the toon. Nat fighting gives 18% double strike for three feats, 2wf gives 80%. That's the correct comparison, not 3 2wf feats vs. 5 feats, a bunch of gear slots, multiple twists, and your main destiny.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 09-28-2013 at 10:46 AM.
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