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  1. #1
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    Default Frustration Setting in, DCs and EE

    Im getting really frustrated right now. After a long time of TRing i piled up 28 lifes on my main, a wizard.
    I took every PL that provided any sort of bonus for my PM build to be able to cast efficiently in EE content.
    All that i need right now, to max out my dc (currently at 66) is a blue helmet and the nether orb, which would be effectively 2 dcs (carrying a +4 nec focus item right now).

    EH is working easily with this dc, on EE on the other hand i cant do **** with it, discos, beeing saved (+4 focus, no feats though) webs get ripped appart and landing insta death spells on anything but casters (which is also saved regulary) is rather senseless, given the fact they need several neg lvls before they work. Kiting through a SOD may help, but then again they hit like a truck, piling up to 200-400 per hit, which leaves me with my 800 hp kind of vulnable.

    My overall conclusion: dcs for EE need an adjustment, or the wizard (PM) is technicly dead and useless in there.
    This is what i would call a flawed and bad design, as it forces me to pick Schiradi over Magister and leaves me a mm monkey.
    Next to that, the elemental dmg of wizards (PM) arent that great, compared to a possible AM/Sorc. The insanly high hps of the mobs is therefore another grain of salt in the wound. Even the SLAs, which recieved a long needed boost get totally countered by a simple deathward spell, which seems to be undispellable, even with mordekins, leaving me with the simple option to waste a lot of sp on medicore dmg or to have a time out when facing dw rednamed.

    The arcane Spellsurge is helping, but a) also not always, b) 20 secs can be a rather short time, given the ammount of mobs appearing, spreading appeart, casting times and cooldowns (not to forget the 3 min cooldown on spellsurge ).

    I start wondering if the last 2 dcs will make the difference, but in general im disappointed, as i hoped that high work would result into high gain.

    Then again, im not counting me as a casual player, and im wondering what will they do once they get the desire to try EE and try to find the items, instead of buying them for tons of A$. If i, as a lvl28 Completionist Drow PM with a nearly maxed out gear and maxed out ED (one of the mystical 8) cant get onto them, anything more casual than me will just be a stone on in the inventory, or an afk till q is finished.

    I am not voting for an IWIN and all dies button here, but im concerned this will drive a lot of players away, either killing thier fun or thier ambition to play at all. A friend of mine, currently playing a midllvl PM alreraddy stated he will drop the idea to play a wizard, as he wouldnt be able to get even close to the stuff i have. I recognize EE isnt for evryone, and its meant to be challenging, but i think right now it is over the top and needs adjusment.

    For my Setup: (~800hp/3.6k sp)
    Drow: max int, max con +4 tomes to all, +5 tome for int, all lvlups into Int
    Featlist: Max, Emp, Hight, Quick, Mental Toughness, Imp Mental Toughness, Completionist, PL Wiz, Necrofocus I,II,III, Spellpen, gretaer Spellpen, Epic Spellpen, Insightfull ref, /Ebonus: spellpower neg, efocus spellcraft
    Pastlives: each 3 times exept 1 times only: Fgt, Mnk, Paly, Rng, Rog, Bard.
    Twists: Endless faith, echoes Magister, 1lvl3 slot for adjusting to current q/1 int to even out if uneven
    Current gear:
    Master Illusionist gloves EE, Sage's Cuffs, Boots open for adjustmnent (erock, FOM, Propulsion)
    Tablecloth T2, con10 dodge 10 belt, litany, conc opp sp googs, eblue robe, torc, minII hp helm, Abbot quiver, tod ring +6int exept1 int exept 2 int, Tod ring +6 str exept 1 con exept2 con
    Weapons: En nether orb +4 enchant, scepter +4 necro
    Int ring gonna be swapped for 50hp ring once i get blue helm +3 int, torc will move for conc opp hp necky, bracers prob gonna be edq
    Current augments: 200 sp, 35hp, impr Mental toughness, + necro focus will be swapped for 2x greater int feat.
    Using Yugo pots INT

    Any advice, besides cookies and store potions and having a bard at swordpoint, how to make things work for me (and evenly important for people that cant pile up what i have)?
    Dev answer appreciated
    Thelanis: Errtu-1, Cherubael, Nararian, Seyria, Yarrrkk, Apothecarius, Tarcus-1, Kheradruakh, Evesor, Experimentum

  2. #2
    Community Member mistalley's Avatar
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    It seems you are quite good geared and past lifed wizard, I feel your pain with such efforts, you dc is still not high enough for ee.

    I suggest you use energy drain more often and try to cc with no save spells, such as solid fog/ice storm to lower the speed of mobs.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistalley View Post
    It seems you are quite good geared and past lifed wizard, I feel your pain with such efforts, you dc is still not high enough for ee.

    I suggest you use energy drain more often and try to cc with no save spells, such as solid fog/ice storm to lower the speed of mobs.
    already doing, + use of ck for misschance and con drain
    Thelanis: Errtu-1, Cherubael, Nararian, Seyria, Yarrrkk, Apothecarius, Tarcus-1, Kheradruakh, Evesor, Experimentum

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    And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
    NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

    No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshei View Post
    And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
    NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

    No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.
    And i feel this is basicly wrong, and thats why i try to bring attention to the topic, if you invest a lot, you should gain a lot
    Thelanis: Errtu-1, Cherubael, Nararian, Seyria, Yarrrkk, Apothecarius, Tarcus-1, Kheradruakh, Evesor, Experimentum

  6. #6
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimethiefXVI View Post
    And i feel this is basicly wrong, and thats why i try to bring attention to the topic, if you invest a lot, you should gain a lot
    I disagree. The gains of TR'ing should be minor at best. You can't expect a new player or new toon to TR 10 times before becoming effective.

    That said, I don't want to see the insta-kill fest that started with the removal of epic ward returning. Making DCs of non insta-kill spells work is perfectly fine with me, but please, no more of that insta-kill pale master nonsense that ruins teamplay.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    I disagree. The gains of TR'ing should be minor at best. You can't expect a new player or new toon to TR 10 times before becoming effective.
    pls read my post, it is one of my major concerns. i know that i have nearly reached the maximum aviable, and if i fail there, where will less experienced, less geared chars fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    That said, I don't want to see the insta-kill fest that started with the removal of epic ward returning. Making DCs of non insta-kill spells work is perfectly fine with me, but please, no more of that insta-kill pale master nonsense that ruins teamplay.
    point of view here. I cant instakill all mobs in the dungeon, im aware of, and wether it should be an option or not is a different discussion. You can see it a different way for teamplay: i open the way for my party to go for the boss and keep trash away.
    But if you define Teamplay aka bohoo, i cant reach the highest killcount and all casters should work for MY melee to deal the most and the best dmg you are mistaken.
    Teamplay means for me to combine the best advantages each one has to offer and get the best gain from it.

    Overall, i think u mistook me on a lot of points, pls tell where i can clarify my statements.
    Thelanis: Errtu-1, Cherubael, Nararian, Seyria, Yarrrkk, Apothecarius, Tarcus-1, Kheradruakh, Evesor, Experimentum

  8. #8
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimethiefXVI View Post
    pls read my post, it is one of my major concerns. i know that i have nearly reached the maximum aviable, and if i fail there, where will less experienced, less geared chars fail.
    I was referring to the point "if you invest a lot, you should gain a lot", which I disagree with. I do, however, agree with you that DC casting should be more effective on EE for anyone that does his best to maximize his viability.

    Quote Originally Posted by TimethiefXVI View Post
    point of view here. I cant instakill all mobs in the dungeon, im aware of, and wether it should be an option or not is a different discussion. You can see it a different way for teamplay: i open the way for my party to go for the boss and keep trash away.
    But if you define Teamplay aka bohoo, i cant reach the highest killcount and all casters should work for MY melee to deal the most and the best dmg you are mistaken.
    Teamplay means for me to combine the best advantages each one has to offer and get the best gain from it.

    Overall, i think u mistook me on a lot of points, pls tell where i can clarify my statements.
    I understand your post and your concerns. I just wanted to make a point about which spells should be viable on EE and which shouldn't, because making DCs better across the board seems like an unbalanced idea to me. Imo, everybody should be able to contribute to kills made in the dungeon. It's boring if one toon can do all of the work without help of others. Therefore I would like enchantment DCs to be effective, while instakills should require significantly more effort to work.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimethiefXVI View Post
    Teamplay means for me to combine the best advantages each one has to offer and get the best gain from it.
    Best advantages in instakills can offer monks.

    Teamplay in current state of the game is when a PM takes enchantment focus feats instead of going all necro stubornly fighting against the windmills. Turbine made fortitude saves deliberately insanely high in EE to prevent what you were expecting to acheive with this build.
    NESALOMLJIVI, Thelanis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    That said, I don't want to see the insta-kill fest that started with the removal of epic ward returning. Making DCs of non insta-kill spells work is perfectly fine with me, but please, no more of that insta-kill pale master nonsense that ruins teamplay.
    And Master blitzer's who hog all the action aren't killjoys too?

    Divines should get more spell points, melee should get more action boost/clickies, and the shrines be spread further apart to test out us necro types.

    OP, I'm in a similar position. 22 lives and a 61 necro dc at Level 21 (missing a Spell Focus mastery at the moment), I am hoping that there will be some fun still in the game when I reach the higher levels.
    Last edited by kwyjibo_lol; 08-30-2013 at 07:10 AM.

  11. #11
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyjibo_lol View Post
    And Master blitzer's who hog all the action aren't killjoys too?

    Divines should get more spell points, melee should get more action boost/clickies, and the shrines be spread further apart to test out us necro types.

    OP, I'm in a similar position. 22 lives and a 61 necro dc at Level 21 (missing a Spell Focus mastery at the moment), I am hoping that there will be some fun still in the game when I reach the higher levels.
    Ridiculous abilities like masters blitz, adrenaline, and shiradi should too be nerfed. In addition monster HP on EE should be reduced significantly. This makes other epic destinies relatively more powerful and reduces the power creep in the game.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    I disagree. The gains of TR'ing should be minor at best. You can't expect a new player or new toon to TR 10 times before becoming effective.
    I disagree here.
    Grinding out gear /TR levels/ whatever... these all need to show significant improvements over rolling up a basic character stoning to cap and being effective with basic off the shelf gear, a mediocre geared player should only be 50% effective if that..

    Someone who is fully geared and past life loaded should be 90% effective solo and better with party buffs.

    Every tweak piece of geat needs to make the player a little bit better otherwise there is no point or challenge or reason to grind out those obscure and unusal bonusses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    That said, I don't want to see the insta-kill fest that started with the removal of epic ward returning. Making DCs of non insta-kill spells work is perfectly fine with me, but please, no more of that insta-kill pale master nonsense that ruins teamplay.
    I can agree with this, Insta-kills need to be balanced, aka not all mobs easily insta-killable, others however should be very easily insta-killable... like a pack of wolves..

    More personal attention to specific mobs is required, the blanket protections that the devs have a habit of doing is sloppy and lazy.
    Epic Wards were one of the worst thing ever introduced into the game.

    Every mob is supposed to have strengths and exploitable weaknesses, not 400,000hp and mass cleaving beyond the visible weapon range for 400 points of damage.... or cast flesh to stone with a save DC of 73 that only splash Paladins can achieve.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 08-30-2013 at 09:36 AM.
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200 (Former Guilds: ChaosKnights, Big Damn Heroes, Shadowfiends, Order of the Drow, Unusual Suspects, Raided R)
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 12/12), Jotmonheals(Clr17/Rog2/Mnk1-EC 32/36), Whatthetruck(Raid farmer-2nd life).. and many many more alts..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    I disagree. The gains of TR'ing should be minor at best. You can't expect a new player or new toon to TR 10 times before becoming effective.

    That said, I don't want to see the insta-kill fest that started with the removal of epic ward returning. Making DCs of non insta-kill spells work is perfectly fine with me, but please, no more of that insta-kill pale master nonsense that ruins teamplay.
    Yes.... because Install-Kill Casters is so terrible. But Insta-Killing Monks with DCs entirely unreachable by Casters is great. -.-

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimethiefXVI View Post
    And i feel this is basicly wrong, and thats why i try to bring attention to the topic, if you invest a lot, you should gain a lot
    I agree, the one who max out potential DC should also land a majority of what they're trying to do (not 99 percent, but a comfortable 80). Otherwise DPS will always reign over tactical and DC.

  15. #15
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshei View Post
    And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
    NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

    No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.
    I too have stopped playing my wizard for this reason.
    /sigh

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    Community Member AuraAten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshei View Post
    And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
    NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

    No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.
    Yep, after four years playing this game and really having a good time, I didnt anymore. My wizard isnt a completionist, but she is quite geared out. She also has three of each of the DC and Spell Pen PLF. Actually the entire reason I commenced this long and grinding journey with her was so that I could make a HMM or FoD land on EE. This was shouted by many and it all fell on deaf ears. I dont want to play a Shiradi, nor do I wish to play as a "buff bot". Its a sad, sad day to read that a DC of 66+ ISNT good enough! Just my two cents and yea O.P. I feel your pain.
    Lizzrdd - Pale-Master, Optymis - Battle Engineer

  17. #17
    Community Member soloist12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshei View Post
    And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
    NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

    No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.
    This is why I haven't logged in since October and let my annual ViP sub tick out - no matter how many PLs you stack or gear you attain, a first life, utterly boring, alternate spec is more effective because any sense of character balance was thrown out a long time ago.

    You can't have a game like this with half your focus on character generation without maintaining some sort of balance (ie. master's blitz compared to the other 5-6 joke ultimates such as the shadowdancer one that have gone untouched in nearly 2 years).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshei View Post
    And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
    NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

    No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.
    Maybe you need to get out and play more and not let the forum doom sayers cloud what you see. I have seen EE quests dominated by light based divines, pure sorcs, instakills, archers, assassins, druid casters, xbow builds, blitzers and many other builds. Inside the game, it isn't anywhere near as bad as it sounds in the forums.

  19. #19
    Community Member Janisis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Maybe you need to get out and play more and not let the forum doom sayers cloud what you see. I have seen EE quests dominated by light based divines, pure sorcs, instakills, archers, assassins, druid casters, xbow builds, blitzers and many other builds. Inside the game, it isn't anywhere near as bad as it sounds in the forums.
    I completely agree with Ancient. Early today I pugged most of the GH quests on EE, we had a rogue heavy archer, a spellsinging bard, a pure draconic fire specced sorc, an evoker fvs and a melee monk. Everyone pulled their weight, it was fun, fast and smooth. The sorc was in my guild, the bard I didn't realize was another friend of mine, the rest were random pugs!

    EE requires some gear, some clue, decent amount of ED and often a few lives (yes completionist might make a huge difference). Other than the monk and I, everyone was somewhere between 1st and 3rd life I have to guess, average geared, maxed out two or three ED.

    I am not sure what the complaint is about blitz, I have played several of them and its solid, but nowhere absurd, takes lots of focus and is fairly group unfriendly, unless everyone is playing assist. Try it before you put it on a pillar. Yes its one of the better ED abilities, no its not game breaking. Yes other EDs are not balanced - I personally feel bad for fatesinger and shadowdancer, but I have seen plenty of amazing rogues in Shadowdancer do amazing in EE.

    When my wife plays, she takes six months breaks frequently (and she humors me occasionally), she has a shiradi shuri-cannon build currently before a barb/fighter elf, she is as flower picking as it gets, slayer zones are her favorite and she has gone on less than a dozen raids in the three years she has played and with rare exception only when I begged her to. With a patient group she survives and handles EE Stormhorns just fine. ITS NOT HARD PEOPLE. ---- on a side note, I suggest you don't turn off the chat boxes so you can see the pretty graphics like she does.


    EE is for people who have done the quest at least once before, know where it is and basically know the quest. When I do LFMs its always for EE, I rarely am picky. I only want to cry and pull out my hair when they ask how to get to the quest! (Seriously, don't join an EE if you can't get there on your own). Know how to heal yourself. Primal Avatar has an ability called cocoon, twist it. Silver flame with enough favor has big heal pots, grind it if needed. UMD can be used to cast heal on yourself, invest in it. If you haven't had the time, energy or will to setup self healing, stick to EH or EN until you do it. Try the quest a few times on EH or EN first. Cant find a group and don't know the quest? Take a hireling and go do it on EN.

    Play the game - Like Ancient says.
    Official Wearer of Purple Proud Member of Renowned Not Afraid to PUG
    Main: Janisis - Completionist currently Shiradi Tank. Alts: Janarch: Someday Divine Archer, Byeshk: Someday Swashbuckle Thrower (or not - alt damage interrupts daze effects )
    Long Live Cult of the Dragon

  20. #20
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    Exactly how I feel about the game, my PM is very similar to the OP (except I have nether orb +5 necro and +3 insightful int item but no EE gloves), just capped him last night, tried some EEs, not to complete more to see how they feel and today I am that close to quit the game altogether, casters are so far behind the melee on EE it's not even funny, almost as far as they are behind arcane classes abusing the completely broken ranged ED. It just ruins my game experience, I have zero incentive to level up my FvS now cause his DCs can't even touch the ones of the PM (and the PM is useless in EE), so what are my options? TR to healbot cleric? Or use shiradi? Very frustrating experience. Probably not the place here but if they do not fix shiradi I am leaving (by that I mean - add DC to venom, primal stat based maybe, make it proc on each spell not each projectile, lower the random damage, or completely remove it from spells), choices is what hooked me up on this game and being forced to do what everybody else does is gonna drive me away.

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