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  1. #1
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Default Silly Idea - Talk me out of it (maybe)

    So, I'm in a TR thing right now. I slowed down for a bit and then took a real break a while back (3 updates?) Before I really stopped I had about a dozen characters sitting at cap. Several of them were first lifers, so I've started TRing them.

    One that I haven't yet is my old-reliable wizard. For the longest time he was my go-to guy - even as a first lifer I had decent enough kit and was comfortable enough with him that I could solo farm **** for all my other toons easily. He was my "explore new content" default guy. His DCs are sub-par now, and the idea of doing the LR on him, then hunting new gear and capping at 28 kinda drains me.

    There are tons of things I'd like to play around with - he's always been steady but he's been a first lifer since I started playing when F2P came out - the first toon I ever capped.

    Now I'm not against trying out new things - and lord knows I've got plenty of character slots but I'd honestly rather not farm too much gear on new characters. Just looking considering it irritates me, so I'd rather use whatever junk he has.

    So, thinking about trying out something new and fun and likely stupid. What I have is loads of old-school PM "tanky" gear - DQ bracers, Torcs (2 actually), etc. One +5 tome on him, rest 3s and 4s though I probably have +4s to even him out. He's got about half his ED's maxed, and honestly I wouldn't mind getting the rest on his next life instead of trying to save the stupid miller's family again.


    The King Six-Feet Under the Mountain

    Dwarf Fighter 2 / Wizard 18 or Wizard 20 ... CON-melee guy

    Seriously. Wielding some combination of Deathnip(s) and Warhammers.

    STR 14 probably to start
    DEX - 14 + tome for TWF
    CON 18
    INT 14
    CHA 10

    CON would nominally be 18 + 2 dwarf + 7 levels + 2 boat + 10 from items (at least) + 2 rage + 4 lich + 2 PM + 4 tensers + 5 primal scream = 56



    Talk me out of it before I TR this guy. I could drop DEX a bit and go Shield Mastery / THF instead of the TWF tree and swap between mauls and S&B. I have all of the shields up until U17 or so (including EE Skyvault + EE Bulwark - Bulwark is slotted w/ -ASF already). If I dropped DEX I could probably put in the STR for Overwhelming crit. This would give me the ability to bounce between a number of EDs (including Fury, LD) as well as Shiradi if I take the Evocation SLAs from AM (which I will).

    Advantage to the 2 fighter levels is Haste Boost / extra Action boost + BAB 11 so I could fit in ITxF as a heroic feat.

    Wizard feats would be Quicken, Maximize, Empower, Extend ... Enlarge if I go 20 wizard and not fighter.

    Normal feats could be something like PA, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved Crit, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen ... using the Spell Pen / Greater for things like OID, Power Word Stun/Kill, Energy Drain, blah blah blah

    Fighter levels would give 2 more feats; unsure what to move around. Cleave / Great Cleave always options. Could rearrange and fit in Toughness. Could drop Spell Pen for MT / IMT.



    So - convince me this is silly and not worth it.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  2. #2

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    Well, right now you get a free pass on trying silly ideas thanks to the free LR+20. If you're committed to TRing him, you could try out the 18/2 fighter splash now by LRing into it and if it seems viable TR into it. If not, TR back into a caster wizard build, no harm no foul.

  3. #3
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    The main problem with dwarves Throw Your Weight Around enhancements is To-Hit. Tensor's gives you full BAB but you still need to pump up STR to get a decent to-hit which then begs the question "why bother?" Especially the steep AP requirements in the racial tree.
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  4. #4
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    The main problem with dwarves Throw Your Weight Around enhancements is To-Hit. Tensor's gives you full BAB but you still need to pump up STR to get a decent to-hit which then begs the question "why bother?" Especially the steep AP requirements in the racial tree.
    I did say it was silly ;-)

    Though I would ask if you really think to-hit is a problem for folks these days? Sure, raising STR raises both (and I can do that, but CON amuses me more). I'm sure I'll have a STR close to the same value - again just with gear I have.

    STR say 16 to start (his +5 tome appears to be in STR) ... then + 4 tensers + 2 rage + 5 primal scream + 2 boat + 10 nominal items ... thats 39, let's call it 40
    - Titan's Grip (have)
    - Inspire Excellence (could happen)
    - Better items

    20 BAB + 15 str + 4 GH + 2 luck + 5 competence from an item + 4 dwarf to-hit = 50 ish base ... dunno around level 20 ... doesn't seem horrid ... then 7 or 8 from the weapon itself ... maybe some sneak adders ... etc.
    Last edited by voodoogroves; 08-29-2013 at 08:05 AM.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  5. #5
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I'm sure I'll have a STR close to the same value
    And that pretty much sums up my point. You can get STR to equal or better mod than CON while also opening up overwhelming critical as epic feat and saving alot of AP from the racial tree. With the new enhancement trees, AP are much more valuable especially in a multiclass build.
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  6. #6
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    And that pretty much sums up my point. You can get STR to equal or better mod than CON while also opening up overwhelming critical as epic feat and saving alot of AP from the racial tree. With the new enhancement trees, AP are much more valuable especially in a multiclass build.
    Keep talking. I'm still somewhat amused and entranced by what I know is a foolish idea ;-)

    If I went STR I'd go Half Orc anyway ;-)
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  7. #7
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    The main problem with dwarves Throw Your Weight Around enhancements is To-Hit. Tensor's gives you full BAB but you still need to pump up STR to get a decent to-hit which then begs the question "why bother?" Especially the steep AP requirements in the racial tree.
    I really wish there was more of an incentive to go CON-based, other than extra HPs, higher Fort saves, and...er...higher Earthgrab DC from Greater DM?
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  8. #8
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Be careful about TRing a toon you really enjoy playing into one you might not enjoy playing.

    I usually make alts to experiment with.

    And I have no plans to TR my main.



    I also tend to TR the toons I don't like and not TR the ones I do like.

    (although a Wizard has much to gain from past life feats)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  9. #9
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Be careful about TRing a toon you really enjoy playing into one you might not enjoy playing.

    I usually make alts to experiment with.

    And I have no plans to TR my main.



    I also tend to TR the toons I don't like and not TR the ones I do like.

    (although a Wizard has much to gain from past life feats)
    Yeah, I've totally done that before. I have a toon with some nifty gear who's essentially parked at 12 or 14 because I hated playing him.

    For this toon I'm thinking about - he's a first-life wizard. He struggles now w/ the new content and honestly could use a TR or two anyway. Besides, with only 2 fighter levels a +3 heart can turn whatever he is into a pure wizard if I want, and frankly a third TR on him wouldn't kill me.

    This isn't one of my 5+ TRs - those are on set plans and move around, etc. I'm much more careful with those.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  10. #10
    Community Member Emizand's Avatar
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    If you have access to iconics why not roll one of them to play with? Start at lvl 15. Could go PDK, try 2 fighter rest sorc. You get:-

    Cormyrean Knight Training: You now use Charisma or Strength, whichever is higher, for attack and damage with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, and greatswords. IN addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats euqal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.

    Would give you a feel of what you want, although wouldnt give you the HP pool. Start at 15 play, not happy wipe. Just a thought.

  11. #11
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I did say it was silly ;-)

    Though I would ask if you really think to-hit is a problem for folks these days?...
    With a 50 to hit 9 in 23 cases of AC up to 100, 1 to hit difference means you need to roll higher on your D20 which is a 5% extra miss chance.

    Thats roughly 2% extra hit chance over all on every +1 over 50 you can gain (Fighter mobs in EE seem to have around 120ac, some bosses roughly 130~150) Going up to +70 to hit is 20% in the low AC ranges and 13% in the higher AC ranges in DPS difference. Around 40str is about 60 to hit with epic weapons, 30str is in that case around 50 to hit, I go up to 56str with all the nice buffs and things ontop and dummy etc I can reach 70 to hit and yes I miss on a 4 on some mobs in EE which would mean a 30 str needs a 9 or higher to hit against fighter class mobs in EE.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Loromir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Yeah, I've totally done that before. I have a toon with some nifty gear who's essentially parked at 12 or 14 because I hated playing him.

    .
    Sounds like this toon is tailor made for the +20 heart.

  13. #13
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emizand View Post
    If you have access to iconics why not roll one of them to play with? Start at lvl 15. Could go PDK, try 2 fighter rest sorc. You get:-

    Cormyrean Knight Training: You now use Charisma or Strength, whichever is higher, for attack and damage with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, and greatswords. IN addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats euqal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.

    Would give you a feel of what you want, although wouldnt give you the HP pool. Start at 15 play, not happy wipe. Just a thought.
    While this may be an interesting idea to some, I'm not sure it is relevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconShadow View Post
    With a 50 to hit 9 in 23 cases of AC up to 100, 1 to hit difference means you need to roll higher on your D20 which is a 5% extra miss chance.

    Thats roughly 2% extra hit chance over all on every +1 over 50 you can gain (Fighter mobs in EE seem to have around 120ac, some bosses roughly 130~150) Going up to +70 to hit is 20% in the low AC ranges and 13% in the higher AC ranges in DPS difference. Around 40str is about 60 to hit with epic weapons, 30str is in that case around 50 to hit, I go up to 56str with all the nice buffs and things ontop and dummy etc I can reach 70 to hit and yes I miss on a 4 on some mobs in EE which would mean a 30 str needs a 9 or higher to hit against fighter class mobs in EE.
    Yeah, exactly. I don't think to-hit will be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinggartk View Post
    Sounds like this toon is tailor made for the +20 heart.
    Unfortunately, that toon is tailor made for a +20 heart, an alignment change and another +20 heart. Not going to happen for him - he's stuck.

    Kinda hate leaving a Torc like that, but it's easy enough to get these days.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  14. #14
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I really wish there was more of an incentive to go CON-based, other than extra HPs, higher Fort saves, and...er...higher Earthgrab DC from Greater DM?
    There are incentives to go CON-based and yea, HP and Fort saves are the biggest bonuses. There are however little synergy with said CON-based melee. Lack of anyway to use CON to-hit means you need to invest and slot STR anyway, potentially skipping on Overwhelming Critical (STR 23 requirement), and a steep AP investment (although Dwarf racial tree isn't too bad).

    Hands of Stone: Requires a feat, more AP investment, SLA so tactic enhancements don't apply, 30s cooldown. For the same feat requirement you could get Stunning Blow with a 12s cooldown.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    Hands of Stone: Requires a feat, more AP investment, SLA so tactic enhancements don't apply, 30s cooldown. For the same feat requirement you could get Stunning Blow with a 12s cooldown.
    Even given the above, on some builds Hands of Stone would be attractive - the real killer is you only get at most 4 uses per rest. If they'd at least tied it to action boosts, or regen uses... dragonmarks are still pretty useless for dwarves.

  16. #16
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    Yeah, exactly. I don't think to-hit will be a problem
    He. Said you would need to roll more than 9 to hi something !!!
    How's that's not. A problem?
    I get upset when I miss with my 80ish str barbarian rolling a 3 and you are ok to miss rolling a 9 ? Lol
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  17. #17
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    He. Said you would need to roll more than 9 to hi something !!!
    How's that's not. A problem?
    Did you read the rest of what he said and I said? LIke the basic to-hit info I was doing math on the napkin for WAS AT LEVEL 20? Thus his reply about how to scale that up for the other 8 levels?

    I get upset when I miss with my 80ish str barbarian rolling a 3
    You and I get upset by different things, clearly.

    and you are ok to miss rolling a 9 ? Lol
    See above.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #18
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    20 BAB + 15 str + 4 GH + 2 luck + 5 competence from an item + 4 dwarf to-hit = 50 ish base ... dunno around level 20 ... doesn't seem horrid ... then 7 or 8 from the weapon itself ... maybe some sneak adders ... etc.
    Don't forget -4 for TWF, and -5 from Power Attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Keep talking. I'm still somewhat amused and entranced by what I know is a foolish idea ;-)

    If I went STR I'd go Half Orc anyway ;-)
    Dwarf still good idea because the bonus with picks outweighs any benefit from orc. How about WF since you are goin 18 wizard anyways? You can self heal, get imp PA, free racial HPs and fort and WF tactics.

    Melee wise, I would go sorc over wizard although and smites on deathnips with adrenaline at end game are really nice....look at something like WF Sorc 12, pally 5 and monk 3. This has a lot of synergy and would do similar to what you want to do I think but the CHA to saves and evasion will make you much more indestructible.

  20. #20
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Dwarf still good idea because the bonus with picks outweighs any benefit from orc. How about WF since you are goin 18 wizard anyways? You can self heal, get imp PA, free racial HPs and fort and WF tactics.
    Done a Tukaw and a melee-WF-wizard already.

    Melee wise, I would go sorc over wizard although and smites on deathnips with adrenaline at end game are really nice....look at something like WF Sorc 12, pally 5 and monk 3. This has a lot of synergy and would do similar to what you want to do I think but the CHA to saves and evasion will make you much more indestructible.
    Completely different idea. Plus, been there, done that. I've not smacked someone with a CON-pick yet though.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

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