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  1. #1
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
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    Default Is The Toughness Feat Dead?

    I know I must be the slowest learner in the game but it's finally occurred to me as I am setting up all my characters with the new stuff that almost all the extra toughness enhancements are gone, and the ones that remain (i.e. for Dwarves, Barbs) don't require the toughness feat.

    The primary benefit of the Toughness Feat was access to the enhancements. Is the general consensus now that the Toughness feat is no longer a presumption on almost every build? 27 hit points are nice if they are free, but I have a lot of feat starved characters who could do a lot more with that feat than 27hp.

    Am I missing something that is making Toughness attractive still? Sorry I know this must have been discussed ad nauseum on the Lammania forums but I'm just catching up.
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  2. #2
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Toughness is Dead - Long Live Toughness

  3. #3
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Still a prereq for epic toughness. Some builds have that as a goal. Its not as "needed" as it used to be though.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #4
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    That it gives HP (should) makes it attractive enough, and removing it as a requirement for HP enhancements makes it no longer mandatory.

  5. #5
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    At this point, until I plan TR's for my chars, I used the Toughness Feat as I had designed it for my existing chars when resetting enhancements for the new system.

    Will I continue to use it in the future? Bloody good question, to which I have no answer at this time.
    There is no free lunch.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery
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    I have no idea what other feat I should take instead of toughness so I'm sticking with toughness on some characters.

    But it's very optional now.

  7. #7
    Community Member Mithis's Avatar
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    For me it depends on the character.

    Some classes have so many feats available that taking Toughness falls under 'why not?'.

    For others (ie feat starved) it is actually somewhat of a relief to be able to leave it out of a build.

    Its not dead but it is actually an optional feat now, which is good IMO.

  8. #8
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    It's still 30 HP at cap, i.e. more HP than granted through +2 Con. If that's worth a feat slot depends on the build.
    Usually, I'd say yes, especially on classes which depend on multiple abilities and can't afford to start with 18 Con. On casters with a low hit dice, this seems to be a valuable investment as well. Imho, on U19 Barbarians it will matter the least if you have it or not, unless they aim for Epic Toughness.
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  9. #9

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    I view toughness as a level 26/28 feat, no longer for leveling. (Or using up a selected feat slot.)

  10. #10
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
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    It's certainly not dead - 30 stacking hp (at level 28) is still good - but it's awesome for many builds that it's no longer mandatory, especially not at lowish levels.

  11. #11
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    It is no longer mandatory, but darn nice to have.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

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  12. #12
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    My TR junkie (who just levels to 20 and then TR's again every life) is having a hard time giving up the Barbarian past life toughness (since it is 20 hp at level 3 which is very nice), but any character I intend to keep long term no longer takes toughness (not even the most low hp classes like wizards and sorcerers or even the classes with the most feats like fighters). It just is not worth it anymore (thankfully since it always was a boring feat to take). Even my TR may one day give up the Barbarian past life toughness if I can cure my addiction. Taking that feat has been a part of turning level 3 ever since my 3rd life when I got access to it (Barb was my second life).
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  13. #13
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    Its a second tier enhancement now, as it probably should have always been. You wont take it on feat-starved classes, but on deep Artis or Wizards or Fighters or Monks or Rangers, you might end up with one extra feat slot with "nothing better" to do with it, and Toughness in some cases will give you better survivability than, say, Dodge or Resilience.

  14. #14
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Agreed with the general consensus. I'll put it this way on my wittle toon:

    I planned out all the feats for the build a while back, and that plan included toughness. I will continue to include toughness on my toons because honestly I don't ever plan a build to the point that it's truly feat starved. Need another meta on a caster? Wizard level, also grants full spellcraft. Need another feat on a melee? 1-2 fighter, which now also grants 8 Haste boosts, and +3 to dc's. Want evasion? 2 monk, which honestly what else are you going to take for those feats? Resilience?

  15. #15
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    It gives HP's. Feat starved or not, in the end it HP's are the only thing that allows you to continue doing your job. The game was balanced around it. I've actually seen a steady stream of people hanging out at taverns (I'm lazy, I sell at taverns) probably for this very reason. I assume (which is bad) if I visited the 12 more frequently I would see more people in there than usual also.

    p.s. I have no way of knowing if players are testing out enhancement combinations through PvP which I just thought about (and explain why they are low HP/SP) as you no longer need a trainer to adjust them; just AS or PP.

  16. #16
    2015 DDO Players Council FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    I still have it on many characters because I haven't had to LR them & I still tend to include it in builds out of habit - as others have said, its very much a "nice to have" now instead of being essential... though if i ever bring myself to run a barbarian life on a character then TR it, that character will definitely be taking the past life version while levelling.
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  17. #17
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    I dropped it on all my characters except possibly my monk and my ranger - I cannot recall for certain. The characters I have dropped it on have about the same number of hitpoints they had before the enhancement pass. So, I do not plan on having Toughness on many of my characters ever again. If there were still enhancements that depend upon it, I would keep it, but there aren't.

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