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  1. #21
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    There were things I liked about 2nd and 3rd edition. In all honesty, I would suggest a hybrid. 2nd edition was about the story and atmosphere. You only rolled the dice to resolve something that couldn't be done through role play (RP). 3rd edition removed many of the RP aspects because it didn't matter to players; player to DM, "my stat sheet says I have an intimidation +12." And that's what 3rd edition devolved into. I also liked thief skills on a percentile dice (but I think that is personal preference).
    It only devolved that way if the DM let it. Nothing stopped at 3.x DM from still applying roleplaying and reason unless the DM & players preferred to go all rolls.

    Like many, I don't recognize 4th ed. although DDO seems to be heading in that direction. Update 23 will probably introduce us to daily powers and such (just guessing lol).
    I'm playing 4e right now as a bit of an experiment. Let's just say we have had to add a lot of House Rules to make it playable but there are a few aspects of it I like. I think the game I will run will be a 3.x house rules hybrid that will include some 4e traits as well as some traits from other versions of the the game.

    As for having that stuff in DDO, we don't have to wait for Update 23, its here already in the form of EDs and now some Enhancements.

    4e has a number of abilities that were based on "succeed (or sometimes fail) at using XXX ability/feat/attack #### times and you get to use superpower y". We have LOTS of examples of that in game.

    As for the once/twice/three times daily powers, we have a near endless list of them now as part of ED/enhancements.

    And encounter powers, what do you think those feats/abilities with 3-5 minute cool downs are?

    Nope, we have been steadily moving to 4th Edition for several years now and in many ways it has arrived.

  2. #22
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    If you're trying to mimic DDO, I'd add the Eberron campaign setting book to that list - That's where you'll find Warforged race, Dragonmarks, Artificer class, Church of the Silver Flame, Iron Defenders, etc.
    Agreed. If you want to go Eberron get the campaign setting book and go 3.5 (don't even look at 4e resources for Eberron, the setting was gutted)

  3. #23
    Community Member Veriden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    3rd Edition just devolved into DC checks and the RP aspect died with it. .
    That isn't exactly true, our group is heavily rp based and uses 3.5 rules. Dnd at 3rd- 3.5ed was made to be easier to pick up than 2nd ed. Thac0 and %s were just far more complicated than they needed to be. Because rules were simplified it leaves more room to role play. That is how our group works though. If you had a dm who made you roll for every little petty thing, then you don't have a good dm.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veriden View Post
    That isn't exactly true, our group is heavily rp based and uses 3.5 rules. Dnd at 3rd- 3.5ed was made to be easier to pick up than 2nd ed. Thac0 and %s were just far more complicated than they needed to be. Because rules were simplified it leaves more room to role play. That is how our group works though. If you had a dm who made you roll for every little petty thing, then you don't have a good dm.
    I think one common theme especially in all the DMGs is that the thd rules are to be used for more fun noy less. The DM is the referee and the final say, but the players dont have to show up if they dont want to.

    So it is a group effort. If u dont like the way things are run by the DM just speak up or get a group consensus on something. He is running things but needs players to run things lol

    I never understood a groups lack of flexability and everything in black and white. The rules are a guide hence the name Dungeon Master's Guide.

    I say try new things. If thingz ever get easy or or hard or too stupid just change them. My plan is to try out a spell point system. I am reading unearthed arcania 3.5 for some ideas but not necessarily written in stone either. I never like the spell system in ADnD and hence never played wiz/sorc. I might even add some spells from DDO so casters can have some fun with melee. Heck Gandaff seemed to use his sword more than spells in the movies in the heat of combat. So Gygax is right and Tolkien is wrong?
    Your lack of healing amp not my problem. Please buy and use your own remove curse pots in combat, so I don't waste mana. Not my job.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Ok taking these in order - I never really got the chance to play 1st Ed. BUT I did have the Unearthed Arcana from the 80s and used that in conjunction with 2nd Ed.
    Specifically Comeliness and the Cavalier

    The differences between 1st and 2nd Ed were minimal and 2nd Ed was a direct continuation.


    Hackmaster I tried a few years back and yes it had some nice ideas BUT I found it too GURPS-Like Personally.


    Positive AC was the FIRST Reason for me NOT transferring to 3rd Ed. - There are plenty of other reasons BUT this was the First to appear and the one concentrated on in advertising.

    I've played 3.5 Since - I attempted Star Wars D20 {Eurgh it was Horrific!} and of course there's DDO!
    Positive ACs just keep going Higher, Attack Mods just keep getting higher!
    1st and 2nd Ed had Maximums - Max AC was -12 {Red Dragon Great Wyrm I believe} which would equate to 22 by 3.5 rules!
    In DDO we have Higher ACs than that at Lvl 1!!!!!

    Look 3.5 made for an easy transformation into a Computer Game {MMO} - Yes there's been many changes required BUT DDO is a tremendous game!
    My Issue is with PnP!

    If back in the late 90s TSR* or WotC had created a DDO with their 3rd Ed. madness and left PnP as 2nd Ed. I'd have no issue whatsoever.
    Because 2nd Ed. Did NOT translate to Computers - Not well at all!
    {Maybe that was because of Computers primitiveness at the time and today a Decent 2nd Ed. DDO could be made {I'd certainly play it...So long as it was more DDO than WoW/Neverwinter/LotrO etc.}.

    *I put TSR in because of their truly awful "Alternity".
    Main reason I liked 1st ed over second was the orginal bard and halforcs were in it. That said I would play in a second ed game in a heartbeat its a very close 3 on my list of fave pnp games.

    As to Hackmaster 5th ed (kind of strange calling that since there is really only 2 one being half joke) I never saw it as very gurps like and I played gurps for years even though I didn't really like it just that the 2 guys who took turns running it were great at running gurps but not at any other game. and I agree 2nd ed didnt translate well to computers

    For a star wars game west end's was better than wotc's

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    There were things I liked about 2nd and 3rd edition. In all honesty, I would suggest a hybrid. 2nd edition was about the story and atmosphere. You only rolled the dice to resolve something that couldn't be done through role play (RP). 3rd edition removed many of the RP aspects because it didn't matter to players; player to DM, "my stat sheet says I have an intimidation +12." And that's what 3rd edition devolved into. I also liked thief skills on a percentile dice (but I think that is personal preference).

    2nd Ed
    • Strong fighter lifting a heavy rock. DM says, "sure, it's plausible." No roll needed.
    • Wizard using staff to leverage heavy rock. DM says, "sure, it's plausible." No roll needed.
    • Wizard lifting heavy rock. DM says, "looks like your strength is a little low there, why don't you roll a d100." Roll used but with reason.


    3rd Ed
    • *Anyone* tries to move the heavy rock! DM says, "Better make a Strength check." Dang roll for everything


    3rd Edition just devolved into DC checks and the RP aspect died with it. Watched one of the official D&D sponsored tabletop games (w/4th ed.) and that was basically the whole evening. The DM did a pretty average job but everything got referenced back to making rolls and DC's. Some of the players at the other tables did some RP'ing but everything came back to "throwing dice." Even some of the Youtube video's are pretty sad

    Like many, I don't recognize 4th ed. although DDO seems to be heading in that direction. Update 23 will probably introduce us to daily powers and such (just guessing lol).
    if you leave out all or at least most of the splatbooks 3.x can be just fine

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  7. #27
    Community Member cnynridr2's Avatar
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    When I DM it was Advanced D&D so I am partial to it. But what I remember being the one of the most fun parts was having a 1" squared plastic graph paper about 3'x4' and using erasable markers and miniatures on it for mapping out gameplay.

    Good luck and have fun with whichever version you go with.
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  8. #28

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    My pnp group never made the switch to 4th Ed. rules. There were a few decent ideas, but it just is too different from classic D&D. We've been playing 3/3.5 for a while now and it's probably the easiest edition to learn, with it's d20 streamlining. 1st and 2nd Ed. are awesome, but are more cumbersome for new players.
    - Founding member of The Firebrands of Caruja on Thelanis -
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post

    OP, you may want to look at Pathfinder also, which is like 3.5 only it is still being actively developed.
    I'm going to second going with Pathfinder, which is basically D&D 3.75, for a few reasons:
    1. Pathfinder takes the 3.5 chassis and improves upon it by giving a lot of classes more options, and some more interesting/stronger abilities, improving races a little, adding a better feat progression, a more intuitive and player-friendly skill system, a more intuitive (if not much better) system for working with combat maneuvers like trip and grapple, and makes an effort to tone down some of the over-powered-ness of many spells. Overall, it's just plain more interesting.
    2. It's not dead. Wizards of the Coast stopped supporting D&D 3.5 a few years ago, which is when Paizo picked up the system and released Pathfinder. They look to be supporting it with a ton of pre-written adventures and adventure paths, and have a rather active community on their message boards.
    3. Almost all of the mechanical stuff can be found on-line at their PRD or the unofficial SRD, and all of their published material can be purchased online as a PDFs, or you can buy the hardcover books. I recommend having at least a real copy of the Core Rulebook and Bestiary I, as it's really worth having those at the table when running a game. Some of my friends use the PDFs or some Pathfinder app on their smartphones/tablets--I find that noses buried in electronic devices too much can be disruptive.
    4. There is a ton of 3rd party support for the game! Companies like Super Genius Games publish new, or alternative classes, new feats, and spins on the existing system. Not something you necessarily want to delve into when you first start out, but it's something that can support an ongoing habit. Plus, Pathfinder is largely backwards compatible with D&D 3.5, so there is another rather vast source for material, although much of it has been updated to PF, either officially in some fashion, or by fans.
    5. WotC are kind of ****s, and you shouldn't be giving your money to them unless you really have to.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  10. #30
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    As for what you want for getting started...

    If you go with D&D 3.5, you really want at least one Player's Handbook, a Dungeon Master's Guide, and a Monster Manual. If you go with Pathfinder, the CRB (Core Rulebook) and the Bestiary I. Having the Game Mastery Guide is nice, but I would just use the on-line resources, as you don't really need that at the table unless you want to wing something for which the info is contained within (there's plenty of material in the CRB to cover most of this, and I like planning ahead a bit).

    Additionally, you'd want some sort of play-mat with a grid marked out on it. This can be a dry-erase whiteboard, or a play-mat made of something like vinyl, or a piece of plexiglass that's been marked off appropriately somehow; a large enough table for the mat, character sheets, and dice for your friends to all fit comfortably; character sheets (can be found online for either game, both official sheets and fan-created versions); at least one full set of D&D dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, and d%), but ideally one full set for each player; some minis or figurines to represent characters and monsters that fit on the (typically 1 inch x 1 inch) squares on your playing surface of choice. You can also just cut out bits of paper that you label or draw on.

    You can play without the visual aids, but there are some parts of the system that don't work at all when playing the game on strictly an imaginative level for combat, like attacks of opportunity (they don't exist in DDO, but are a big part of the 3.5/PF system).
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Additionally, you'd want some sort of play-mat with a grid marked out on it.
    This. Before 3E, using minis and a battlemat were optional: some groups swore by them, while others condiddered them an expensive waste of space. But in 3.0 and after, the exact location of your character compared to evryone and everything else
    became a vital part of combat. Bob the fighter is taking a pounding: can Joe the cleric move far enough to get next to him and still have time to cast his healing spell, without getting so close to the monster as to provoke an attack of opportunity?

    For both 2E and 3E, you need the DMG, PHB, and Monster Manual I, all the rest is optional. Pathfinder combined the PHB and DMG into 1 book, the Core Rules, but that's all.
    For 3E, you also need minis and a battlemat, be it the official stuff from the store or a home-made mat (laminated grid-marked paper works great) and jelly-bean monsters to be eaten after defeat.

    Greetz,
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    It only devolved that way if the DM let it. Nothing stopped at 3.x DM from still applying roleplaying and reason unless the DM & players preferred to go all rolls.



    I'm playing 4e right now as a bit of an experiment. Let's just say we have had to add a lot of House Rules to make it playable but there are a few aspects of it I like. I think the game I will run will be a 3.x house rules hybrid that will include some 4e traits as well as some traits from other versions of the the game.

    As for having that stuff in DDO, we don't have to wait for Update 23, its here already in the form of EDs and now some Enhancements.

    4e has a number of abilities that were based on "succeed (or sometimes fail) at using XXX ability/feat/attack #### times and you get to use superpower y". We have LOTS of examples of that in game.

    As for the once/twice/three times daily powers, we have a near endless list of them now as part of ED/enhancements.

    And encounter powers, what do you think those feats/abilities with 3-5 minute cool downs are?

    Nope, we have been steadily moving to 4th Edition for several years now and in many ways it has arrived.
    Your moving to 4E when they are dropping it for dnd next

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  13. #33
    Community Member kanordog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I did have the Unearthed Arcana from the 80s and used that in conjunction with 2nd Ed.
    ... and the Cavalier
    Arcana?
    I thought it is forgotten...
    You're my best friend!



    For the OP:
    2nd ed. (possibly 1st too) was the PnP
    Go oldschool!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibe View Post
    Some friends and I are going to start playing AD&D PnP and I thought I would go with version 3.5. Does anyone know specifically what I would need to get a group going? Players and Dungeon Masters? I am sure everyone will have their opinion on which version is best but I thought that DDO was based on 3.5 so I thought we should stick with that. Thanks in advance and I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask this question.
    While many here have their views. If your seeking to stick with a core D20 rules system( the core rules used in developing 3E+ D&D) Then Id suggest avoiding anything actually labeled as D&D. Yes I know that sounds odd, but the fact is that WOTC and their minions like Ed Greenwood took what is really a great system, and ruined it. Its not all their fault the fact is alot of the stuff they tried to hold over from earlier editions never belonged to much either. Classes like fighter. What is a fighter? Every is in a typical D&D campaign setting, if you cant your a farmer.

    Personally I suggest books using D20 that stand on their own. The Conan D20 for example is probably the best for those who want magic to be mysterious and not something everyone has, where warriors of skill and steel are the main stay, with wise mystics and occult members are usually NPCs.

    Or if your more after a traditional D&D type setting, look for Monte Cooks Arcana Evolved, a single stand alone book that is PH, DMG, and MM all in one, set in a great world with tons of interesting lore to develop adventures in. It usually goes for around 50 bucks new, saving you a fair bit over buying brand new copies of the D&D core three which will run you almost twice that.

    Either of those D20 systems/settings is far superior to actual D&D largely because warrior classes are meant to be able to rival spell casters, and spell casters are not totally gimp at low lvls due to a much more flexible system for slots and multi classing as well as racial lvls for a number of races to persue if their racial abilities are of more interest then their class.

    Honestly I never condone spending a dime on WOTC products, even spending money on DDO often rubbed me raw knowing even a fraction of it was going to the most evil of companies I have ever seen rise.

  15. #35
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    On a side note if you OP are interested in older school, again dont give WOTC a dime to buy all the recent reprinted older ed stuff, instead use amazon to track down copies of Kenzerco Hackmaster 4E books, which used AD&D rules as a foundation but made them actually worth playing with. Something alot of rose tinted glasses wearers here seem to forget is how badly designed older eds of D&D where and always needed house rules to get them working, hence why a regular section in the ask a DM sections of dungeons and dragons mags where submit and vote on the best house rules to help spread them farther afield then single tables.

    The team at kenzerco took AD&D to a new lvl, and so intimidated WOTC that WOTC played very dirty pool and refused to renew kenzerco's lease on the rule system when it became apparent it was going to rival if not kill of 3E+ D&D. Another reason to loathe WOTC they do clearly put the dollar before the fan base who once where loyal and now know better then to trust a company to provide us with the best product for our money, if they did they would of happily kept leasing the rights to kenzerco and let those who loved the game still enjoy it rather then have to find copies of an ever shrinking supply as we spread it by word of mouth to our friends.

    Long Live HackMaster 4E the greatest fiction to ever be made fact.

  16. #36
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    Some Table Top dice chucker customs you should learn now. Never Touch anothers dice, the dice you and each use should be freshly purchased and each keep them untouch by others, this helps protect their luck. To charge dice up roll them over old first edition books or other things holy to all dice chuckers. If you can make a sojourn to places like the town where Robert E howard lived and bury them in the ground as close to the sight of his home as possible for at least 3 full days and nights.

    Never use anything other then leather, metal studded bags to carry your dice, which in time will need to expand to have many d6s and d8s for various spell and special attacks. This is so when DMs get uppity you have a solid dice bag to throw at their face and give them a proper black eye to learn their lesson from.

    Also remember any action a player does not state clearly never happens. So when players go around piling up gold if they dont declare they are sacking it, they left it behind.

    A DMs job is to Torment, and tease, the players to outwit and ruin all the best layed efforts of a DM.

  17. #37
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    ...but the fact is that WOTC and their minions like Ed Greenwood took what is really a great system, and ruined it...
    LMAO Ed Geenwood was working with TSR looooong before the jackwagons at Wizards of the Coast picked up their first playing cards. Although, I do agree that WotC ruined DnD.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Never use anything other then leather, metal studded bags to carry your dice, which in time will need to expand to have many d6s and d8s for various spell and special attacks. This is so when DMs get uppity you have a solid dice bag to throw at their face and give them a proper black eye to learn their lesson from.
    I found that velvet Crown Royal mickey pouches had better mojo than leather, metal studded bags. But that might just be for Canadians.

  19. #39
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    If you want roleplay then 2nd Edition (Basic and Expert also good). 3rd Edition is for gamers not roleplayers really; you can see that in the attribute scaling and melee stacking from feats that lead to - what I feel is - a pretty grotesque and unrealistic environment for roleplaying in. 3rd Ed is great for DDO as the computer can handle all the dice mechanics behind the scenes.

    but don't take my word for it, why not try them both out? It can't do any harm.

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    If your group is spanking new to D&D or complex tabletop games in general, 3.5 would probably be the easiest to pick up. 2nd edition is fine if you're comfortable already, and the difference between them is mostly that rules in 3 and 3.5 were a bit more standardized. Once you get a handle on the basics, most situations play by the same rules. 2nd edition is more loose. 4th is great if you want to spend two hours fighting 5 monsters instead of actually roleplaying.

    Pick up a Player's Handbook, a Dungeon Master's Guide, and a Monster Manual. A DM screen with rules references is a huge help if you can find one also.

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