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  1. #1
    Community Member Zarquine's Avatar
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    Default Shadar-Kai Weapons IC: Slash or Pierce?

    he two Shadar-Kai Iconic weapons Reward and Ruin are daggers that do both, slashing and piercing damage; so, which Imporved Critical is the right one? Pierce? Slash? Both?

  2. #2
    Community Member hucka's Avatar
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    piercing works for sure, never tested slashing since i didnt even notice that they do that

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    Pierce.

    Improved Crit Piercing includes IC Dagger.

    Geoff.

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    Community Member Zarquine's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was afraid of that, because then I need IC: Slash for kukris, too.

    ty for your quick answers.

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    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    On this topic, its important to note there can be an important distinction between improved critical feats and many enhancements/destinies as they relate to damage type vs weapon type. Improved critical is a fairly old feat, and when it was originally coded it was coded based on weapon type, not damage type. So Sireth is a quarterstaff, and when you take the improved critical feat bludgeoning, you'll see among the many weapon types that you received improved critical on, that quarterstaff is listed. In contrast, the legendary dreadnought epic destiny ability pulverizer improves weapons with bludgeoning damage. Sireth, does not do bludgeoning damage so its not affected by the ability. This seems counterintuitive and may not be wai, but I wouldn't expect this discrepancy to be resolved soon so keep a close eye on whether the ability you're looking at deals with damage or type.
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    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    On this topic, its important to note there can be an important distinction between improved critical feats and many enhancements/destinies as they relate to damage type vs weapon type. Improved critical is a fairly old feat, and when it was originally coded it was coded based on weapon type, not damage type. So Sireth is a quarterstaff, and when you take the improved critical feat bludgeoning, you'll see among the many weapon types that you received improved critical on, that quarterstaff is listed. In contrast, the legendary dreadnought epic destiny ability pulverizer improves weapons with bludgeoning damage. Sireth, does not do bludgeoning damage so its not affected by the ability. This seems counterintuitive and may not be wai, but I wouldn't expect this discrepancy to be resolved soon so keep a close eye on whether the ability you're looking at deals with damage or type.
    The Devs should really get around to fixing this issue!

    Imp Crit needs to be on Dmg Type NOT Wpn Type!

    Weapons with Multiple Dmg Types should be able to accept either Imp Crit Feat!

    And Pulverizer should Def work with Sireth as Sireth is a Staff and a Spear and can be used as both Bludgeon or Pierce!
    Just Code it so that any creature with DR/Piercing {Rakshasa I believe} are immune to Pulverizer or similar abilities that require a dmg type.

    You could in fact make all Creatures with DR stronger by adding in such immunities!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    The Devs should really get around to fixing this issue!

    Imp Crit needs to be on Dmg Type NOT Wpn Type!

    Weapons with Multiple Dmg Types should be able to accept either Imp Crit Feat!

    And Pulverizer should Def work with Sireth as Sireth is a Staff and a Spear and can be used as both Bludgeon or Pierce!
    Just Code it so that any creature with DR/Piercing {Rakshasa I believe} are immune to Pulverizer or similar abilities that require a dmg type.

    You could in fact make all Creatures with DR stronger by adding in such immunities!
    No I think its really the opposite - everything should go by weapon type, not by what damage it does. Special cases like Sireth allow you to do damage types that your weapon class doesn't normally do - but you build your character to specialize in Q-staves and then eventually get a Sireth, you don't build a character that specializes in Slashing and then eventually get a Sireth.

    Also, the new enhancement skills are weapon-type focused, not damage-type focused. Thief Acrobats would probably want to end up with a Sireth, but they wouldn't want to have to change their IC feats, and Pulverizer should work with it, same as other Q-staves.

    Likewise, Assassins use shortswords and get DEX-to-dmg on piercing weapons. Celestia is a Shortsword, but not a Piercing weapon.

    Lastly, if everything went only by damage type, doesn't that mean an AA with Morphic Arrows could use any IC feat they like, and get the benefit of Pulverizer and ANYthing else that gave a bonus by damage type?

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    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Lastly, if everything went only by damage type, doesn't that mean an AA with Morphic Arrows could use any IC feat they like, and get the benefit of Pulverizer and ANYthing else that gave a bonus by damage type?
    I love Morphic Arrows - Great New Enhancement!

    Pretty Sure Pulverizer won't work with Bows though!

    The thing with AAs is that it should probably be possible for them to Crit no matter what Dmg Type their arrows are - Imp Crit Ranged sort of takes care of this already - It DOESN'T Matter what Dmg type is on the Bow or the Arrows - All that matters is that they're using a Ranged Weapon!

    So maybe Imp Crit Ranged should stay as is - Just change the Melee types to account for anomalies like Celestia.


    Also - Changing it completely to weapon type would cause serious issues for many people who swap weapon types quite often depending on situation.
    Especially Newbies who haven't been able to find that Holy Burst Greatsword of Evil Outsider Bane {yeah I'm out of date - so what} yet but have found a Falchion that'll do the job!

    Basically you'd create an AH Bonanza!

    Not to mention the fact that Imp Crit is a monstrously valuable feat already - Requiring people to take Multiples of it = Ouch!
    Ok so my Tank takes Slash and Bludgeon BUT by weapon type I'd have to take 4,5,6...Oh who knows... different Imp Crits!

  9. #9
    Community Member hkusp45's Avatar
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    Default Whirling Chain

    Wondering if the whirling chain attack can be boosted with metas? What would increase the damage of that attack STR/DEX?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Ok so my Tank takes Slash and Bludgeon BUT by weapon type I'd have to take 4,5,6...Oh who knows... different Imp Crits!
    Well considering there's only 4 types of weapon classes (Bludgeon, Pierce, Slash, and Ranged), I figure that's the most anyone would need to take Though I dont know why anyone would take more than 1, still, and just swap out different weapons of that weapon class...

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    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Well considering there's only 4 types of weapon classes (Bludgeon, Pierce, Slash, and Ranged), I figure that's the most anyone would need to take Though I dont know why anyone would take more than 1, still, and just swap out different weapons of that weapon class...
    Ranged players would likely be inclined to take two, unless they never put a bow down on sheer principle.. Fighters have enough feats that taking two for situtational dr or a specfic weapon is reasonable (I did this for a while for those level draining drow daggers on a khopesh wielder I had)
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  12. #12
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Well considering there's only 4 types of weapon classes (Bludgeon, Pierce, Slash, and Ranged), I figure that's the most anyone would need to take Though I dont know why anyone would take more than 1, still, and just swap out different weapons of that weapon class...
    By your suggestion {at least what I read} I'd need two separate Imp Crit Feats for Falchions and Greatswords.
    I'd need 2 more Imp Crit Feats if I wanted to be able to sword and board from time to time with Scimis or Longswords {poss B-Swords or Khops}.

    I'd need a 5th for the Bow.


    Which is why I feel we should stick with Imp Crit being Dmg Based i.e. Slashing, Bludgeoning etc. and NOT Weapon Based!

    BUT

    Weapons like Celestia and Sireth should be coded into the Imp Crit Feat as either ALL Dmg Types that they do OR as The Dmg type generally accepted for the weapon that they are.
    Celestia {like all Sun Blades} is a B-Sword that is as light as a Short Sword - It is STILL a Slashing Weapon NOT Piercing!
    Sireth is a Spear {Not available in DDO as a Weapon Type} - Spears can be wielded as Staves though so Sireth should allow for BOTH Imp Crit Piercing AND Imp Crit Bludgeon to work with it.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    By your suggestion {at least what I read} I'd need two separate Imp Crit Feats for Falchions and Greatswords.
    I'd need 2 more Imp Crit Feats if I wanted to be able to sword and board from time to time with Scimis or Longswords {poss B-Swords or Khops}.

    I'd need a 5th for the Bow.


    Which is why I feel we should stick with Imp Crit being Dmg Based i.e. Slashing, Bludgeoning etc. and NOT Weapon Based!

    BUT

    Weapons like Celestia and Sireth should be coded into the Imp Crit Feat as either ALL Dmg Types that they do OR as The Dmg type generally accepted for the weapon that they are.
    Celestia {like all Sun Blades} is a B-Sword that is as light as a Short Sword - It is STILL a Slashing Weapon NOT Piercing!
    Sireth is a Spear {Not available in DDO as a Weapon Type} - Spears can be wielded as Staves though so Sireth should allow for BOTH Imp Crit Piercing AND Imp Crit Bludgeon to work with it.
    Falchions and Greatswords are both Slashing weapons, they both fall under IC: Slashing. If you open up your IC feat in your Character sheet, you'll see all the various individual weapon classes that fall under each damage class. I'm not saying that you'd have to take each individual weapon as a separate feat, no...

    I think you're confusing damage class with damage type....damage type is the actual damage done by the weapon (so Light on Celestia, Slash/Pierce on Sireth, etc.) The damage class is what IC feat the base weapon type falls under, so Piercing for Shortswords, Bludgeon for Q-staves, etc.

    What I'm suggesting is that ALL effects that effect a specific weapon subgroup - Improved Critical, Pulverizer, Ninja Training, etc. - should ALWAYS go by damage class, never by damage type.

    Your suggestion would mean that, for example, Sireth would NOT benefit from the same IC as other Qstaves, because it lacks a Bludgeon damage component. And you would not be able to get any IC feat to apply to Celestia, since there is no IC:Light...incidentally, Celestia IS a Shortsword, both in its description and also for purposes of things like proficiency and IC:Piercing.

  14. #14
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    No I think its really the opposite - everything should go by weapon type, not by what damage it does. Special cases like Sireth allow you to do damage types that your weapon class doesn't normally do - but you build your character to specialize in Q-staves and then eventually get a Sireth, you don't build a character that specializes in Slashing and then eventually get a Sireth.

    Also, the new enhancement skills are weapon-type focused, not damage-type focused. Thief Acrobats would probably want to end up with a Sireth, but they wouldn't want to have to change their IC feats, and Pulverizer should work with it, same as other Q-staves.

    Likewise, Assassins use shortswords and get DEX-to-dmg on piercing weapons. Celestia is a Shortsword, but not a Piercing weapon.
    What I'm saying is that Celestia WOULD BE a Slashing Weapon if the Devs got their act together!
    Sireth WOULD Be BOTH a Piercing and Bludgeoning Weapon {Imp Crit Pierce or Bludgeon would both work}

    And Yes it's possible I misconstrued your first sentence to mean Two Weapons that have the same Dmg Type would require separate Imp Crit Feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Falchions and Greatswords are both Slashing weapons, they both fall under IC: Slashing. If you open up your IC feat in your Character sheet, you'll see all the various individual weapon classes that fall under each damage class. I'm not saying that you'd have to take each individual weapon as a separate feat, no...

    I think you're confusing damage class with damage type....damage type is the actual damage done by the weapon (so Light on Celestia, Slash/Pierce on Sireth, etc.) The damage class is what IC feat the base weapon type falls under, so Piercing for Shortswords, Bludgeon for Q-staves, etc.

    What I'm suggesting is that ALL effects that effect a specific weapon subgroup - Improved Critical, Pulverizer, Ninja Training, etc. - should ALWAYS go by damage class, never by damage type.

    Your suggestion would mean that, for example, Sireth would NOT benefit from the same IC as other Qstaves, because it lacks a Bludgeon damage component. And you would not be able to get any IC feat to apply to Celestia, since there is no IC:Light...incidentally, Celestia IS a Shortsword, both in its description and also for purposes of things like proficiency and IC:Piercing.
    I've re-quoted the previous post I was replying to above so as to explain my points better.

    I'm saying that Sireth SHOULD gain both Bludgeon and Piercing Dmg Components as it CAN be used as BOTH a Staff and a Spear!

    I'm saying that as far as Imp Crit is concerned Celestia SHOULD count as a B-Sword {Slashing} - BTW Sun Blades are B-Swords NOT Short Swords - They just have the weight and heft of a Short Sword but are most certainly NOT Piercing Wpns!


    Mainly I'm simply talking about the Devs getting their act together now they've put wpns with anomalous Dmg types into the game and adding those weapons to the requisite Imp Crit Feats.

    Weapons with Multiple Dmg Types should accept EITHER Imp Crit Feat.
    Weapons with an anomalous Dmg Type like Celestia should accept the Imp Crit Feat of the Weapon it's based on {In this case - A B-Sword!}.

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