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  1. #1
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default We really need more enhancement trees

    One of the hopes I had for the enhancement pass was that there would be a wider variety of enhancements to support a wider range of playstyles. For some classes, this was realized. I am especially happy with how clerics got an offensive spell-casting tree, and barbarians can choose not to kill themselves for more power. For others, though.... not so much.

    Wizards, Sorcerers, Artificers and Fighters seem to be missing something, imo.

    In the case of sorcerers, it's because all they do is nuke using one or two elements, just like they did beforehand. Every sorcerer is a Savant. *yawn*

    For wizards, it seems to me that while palemasters got a huge buff, archmage isn't much more than a copy/paste of the old archmage PrE. AM doesn't really stand up much against the survivability of PM.

    As for artificers, they got a combat tree and a spellcasting tree. What they didn't get was a trapping/rogueish tree. It would be nice if they had something similar to the rogue's mechanic tree.

    Finally, fighters seem a bit weak in terms of the choices they get. Stalwart Defender is very solid for someone who wants to use a shield, but not everyone wants to do that. Kensai is useful, from the standpoint of offense, but some of it's abilities can't be used unless one multiclasses into monk and doesn't wear armor. Fighters feel kind of weak in comparison to the other melee classes now. I find it funny how this class didn't get a tree that rewards high charisma when they were making the PDK iconic. Very odd.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery
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    Sorcerers need Acolyte of Skin.

    Wizards need Wild Mage.

  3. #3
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    I mentioned elsewhere since there's a renewed interest from the Devs with dragons and there seems to be alot of endgame focus on dragons, then new trees for each class that contain the dragon-focused prestige classes might be a way to go.

    Examples:
    * Dragonheart Mage for Wizards
    * Dragonslayer for Fighters
    * Dragonsong Lyricist for Bards
    * Dragonstalker for Ranger
    * Hoardstealer for Rogue & Artificers
    * Platinum Knight for Paladins
    * Dragon Descendant for Sorcs & Monk
    * Dragon Devotee for Clerics & FvS

    With that said, Clerics and Sorcs will be getting new trees in the next two updates, according to the Devs. So I think the next classes that should get a priority on new trees really should be Fighters and Paladins. Fighters have always been blandish, so a bit of variety for them would be nice. Paladins got one new ability in their two trees, plus Sacred Defender is practically a copy of the Stalwart Denfender tree while the combining of HOTD and KOTC was just laziness on the Devs part.

  4. #4
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Sorcerers need Acolyte of Skin.

    Wizards need Wild Mage.
    Sorcerers need AM and PM.

    Wizards need Savant.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  5. #5
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    Yep, every class needs 3 trees for it to work well. I don't think there's any way around that, really. There just aren't enough enhancements available to really make a character unique.

    But I think the problem lies squarely with caster (or hybrid, to a lesser extent) classes. Non-casters can get away with taking, for example, the Elf AA tree, or investing in alternative damage types like the Dwarf's Throw Your Weight Around. They can take a few levels in another class with very little trade-off outside of locking off a few select enhancements. There's nothing really tied to class levels for melees that isn't available with other melee classes, like proficiencies, BAB, HP, attack speed, PRR, etc.

    For casters, investing in the racial tree is a direct decrease in their spellpower. Small, but significant. It might not completely deter people from investing, for example, 1 point into the Human tree for a spell power action boost, but it certainly doesn't help. Then if they multiclass, they lose DCs, spell pen, spell slots, SP... that's a lot to lose for some low-level enhancements. And none of that can be regained in another class, because every single one of those things is reliant on your class level. You're essentially forcing yourself into one of healing or nuking, because the effectiveness of DC-based spells goes downhill fast when you start multiclassing. And if you're only going to heal or nuke... some of the caster classes just become useless (*cough Wizard cough*).

    Such is D&D.

  6. #6
    Community Member donfilibuster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    Then if they multiclass, they lose DCs, spell pen, spell slots, SP... that's a lot to lose for some low-level enhancements. And none of that can be regained in another class, because every single one of those things is reliant on your class level.
    Speaking of D&D, it looks like a good time to lobby for the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat

  7. #7
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Sorcerers need AM and PM.

    Wizards need Savant.
    I disagree. No class should have to share a tree/PrE with another class. Who would want to play a wizard when you can be a sorcerer PM? lol

  8. #8
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    its just another 1/2 finished system realeased.

    atleast it feels that way with no racial PrE's.

    Right now its a no brainer that almost every class is better as a multiclass than pure. a full set of racial PrE's would open back up options for pures
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    As for artificers, they got a combat tree and a spellcasting tree. What they didn't get was a trapping/rogueish tree. It would be nice if they had something similar to the rogue's mechanic tree.

    Finally, fighters seem a bit weak in terms of the choices they get. Stalwart Defender is very solid for someone who wants to use a shield, but not everyone wants to do that. Kensai is useful, from the standpoint of offense, but some of it's abilities can't be used unless one multiclasses into monk and doesn't wear armor. Fighters feel kind of weak in comparison to the other melee classes now. I find it funny how this class didn't get a tree that rewards high charisma when they were making the PDK iconic. Very odd.
    Artis don't need trapping skills - that wouldn't be enough to flesh out an entire tree. You search, you disable, you open locks - its a support skill, at best. There's no sneak die, and RXB enhancements would just end up becoming an extension of BE, as likewise "Alchemical Traps" would just become an extension of AT's SLAs.

    I think the third Arti tree should be pet focused....take the pet enhancements out of AT, and replace them with some more spell-focused enhancements, maybe some spell-centered bonuses to runearms like 1% Universal crit per charged tier and +Max CL for Lightning spells, or +1/2/3 to Heighten level, since Artis can only Heighten to 6 as it is...AT should basically be Savant/AM for Artis.

    Make a tree that lets you turn your Defender into something really worthwhile that you can keep playing with through Epic - passive buffs that increase its survivability, group "aura" buffs when nearby (the healing aura was a good start, they can do more), additional "SLA" abilities for the pet, and add more equippable gear slots or the ability to "attach" other weapons besides Pet Collars.

    Kensei's a little better, except for all the Feat requirements...what it really needs is some active short-cooldown offensive-midned attacks like other classes get. Both trees in Fighter seem largely defensive - and Fighter is not solely a defensive/CC class. Just cut and paste TA's +doublestrike attack, and make it work with your Kensei Focus weapon, boom problem solved
    Last edited by droid327; 08-27-2013 at 10:58 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    One of the hopes I had for the enhancement pass was that there would be a wider variety of enhancements to support a wider range of playstyles. For some classes, this was realized. I am especially happy with how clerics got an offensive spell-casting tree, and barbarians can choose not to kill themselves for more power. For others, though.... not so much.

    Wizards, Sorcerers, Artificers and Fighters seem to be missing something, imo.

    In the case of sorcerers, it's because all they do is nuke using one or two elements, just like they did beforehand. Every sorcerer is a Savant. *yawn*

    For wizards, it seems to me that while palemasters got a huge buff, archmage isn't much more than a copy/paste of the old archmage PrE. AM doesn't really stand up much against the survivability of PM.

    As for artificers, they got a combat tree and a spellcasting tree. What they didn't get was a trapping/rogueish tree. It would be nice if they had something similar to the rogue's mechanic tree.

    Finally, fighters seem a bit weak in terms of the choices they get. Stalwart Defender is very solid for someone who wants to use a shield, but not everyone wants to do that. Kensai is useful, from the standpoint of offense, but some of it's abilities can't be used unless one multiclasses into monk and doesn't wear armor. Fighters feel kind of weak in comparison to the other melee classes now. I find it funny how this class didn't get a tree that rewards high charisma when they were making the PDK iconic. Very odd.
    I was all set to argue with you, b/c I like how my sorc works now better than before. But I have to agree with what you write - yes, more flexibility, along the class themes, would be great.

  11. #11
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Artis don't need trapping skills - that wouldn't be enough to flesh out an entire tree. You search, you disable, you open locks - its a support skill, at best. There's no sneak die, and RXB enhancements would just end up becoming an extension of BE, as likewise "Alchemical Traps" would just become an extension of AT's SLAs.

    I think the third Arti tree should be pet focused....take the pet enhancements out of AT, and replace them with some more spell-focused enhancements, maybe some spell-centered bonuses to runearms like 1% Universal crit per charged tier and +Max CL for Lightning spells, or +1/2/3 to Heighten level, since Artis can only Heighten to 6 as it is...AT should basically be Savant/AM for Artis.

    Make a tree that lets you turn your Defender into something really worthwhile that you can keep playing with through Epic - passive buffs that increase its survivability, group "aura" buffs when nearby (the healing aura was a good start, they can do more), additional "SLA" abilities for the pet, and add more equippable gear slots or the ability to "attach" other weapons besides Pet Collars.

    Kensei's a little better, except for all the Feat requirements...what it really needs is some active short-cooldown offensive-midned attacks like other classes get. Both trees in Fighter seem largely defensive - and Fighter is not solely a defensive/CC class. Just cut and paste TA's +doublestrike attack, and make it work with your Kensei Focus weapon, boom problem solved
    Of course arties need trapping skills! It's one of the main reasons to want one in your party. Skill boosts are very important for a class that relies heavily on it's skills like arty does.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    The arty tree I'd really like to see is "Self-forged".
    Feat pre-req of Construct Essence for the very first core enhancement, and then the tree provides increased repair/heal bonuses, etc., plus some of the physical enhancements in the Warforged racial tree, and culminating in things like: "you are now considered a living construct", neg-level immunity, and such.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Of course arties need trapping skills! It's one of the main reasons to want one in your party. Skill boosts are very important for a class that relies heavily on it's skills like arty does.
    BE already has +1/2/3 to DD and OL...they can turn the T1 BE Attack Boost into Attack Or Skill Boost easily enough. What else would you put in a "Trapping Tree"?

    Even in Rogue Mechanic, the ostensibly comparable "trapping tree", most of that tree has nothing to do with actual trapping. The only "trapping enhancements" in it are +50% detection distance, +3 to trapping skills, and +6 Skill Boost. Everything else has no direct effect on your ability to handle traps. And even then, the first of those is merely a convenience, the second Artis already have, so you're only complaining about a +6 Skill Boost not being in the Arti tree - which does not warrant an entire tree of its own to house.

    Rogue Mechanic is more of a xbow tree with trapping skills, so BE - already the xbow tree - could be tweaked to be the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    The arty tree I'd really like to see is "Self-forged".
    Feat pre-req of Construct Essence for the very first core enhancement, and then the tree provides increased repair/heal bonuses, etc., plus some of the physical enhancements in the Warforged racial tree, and culminating in things like: "you are now considered a living construct", neg-level immunity, and such.
    Interesting idea...but counterpoint, it'd essentially be a way for F2P to access WF without paying/earning it. Also, I wonder if it would deprecate playing an actual WF, who wouldn't get the second set of racial bonuses that a Self-Forged would...
    Last edited by droid327; 08-28-2013 at 10:46 AM.

  14. #14
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    BE already has +1/2/3 to DD and OL...they can turn the T1 BE Attack Boost into Attack Or Skill Boost easily enough. What else would you put in a "Trapping Tree"?

    Even in Rogue Mechanic, the ostensibly comparable "trapping tree", most of that tree has nothing to do with actual trapping. The only "trapping enhancements" in it are +50% detection distance, +3 to trapping skills, and +6 Skill Boost. Everything else has no direct effect on your ability to handle traps. And even then, the first of those is merely a convenience, the second Artis already have, so you're only complaining about a +6 Skill Boost not being in the Arti tree - which does not warrant an entire tree of its own to house.

    Rogue Mechanic is more of a xbow tree with trapping skills, so BE - already the xbow tree - could be tweaked to be the same
    You're forgetting spot and search, Droid. Also, skill boost is very useful. Maybe you need really, really need that rez scroll to activate the first time, or you're doing a trap in a quest that's over your level... skill boost is very useful for artificers. After looking at the mechanic tree again, I do see your point, though.

    I do like the idea of the self-forged tree, but it would have to have other things besides giving the user wf traits so that wf could use it, too, to an extent.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Sorcerers need AM and PM.

    Wizards need Savant.
    Yes.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    You're forgetting spot and search, Droid. Also, skill boost is very useful. Maybe you need really, really need that rez scroll to activate the first time, or you're doing a trap in a quest that's over your level... skill boost is very useful for artificers. After looking at the mechanic tree again, I do see your point, though.

    I do like the idea of the self-forged tree, but it would have to have other things besides giving the user wf traits so that wf could use it, too, to an extent.
    This seems right to me as I see Artie's as builders who know how to defeat things mostly as a side effect of knowing how they generally work whereas mechanics are specialists at defeating these things.

    Also, it gives mechanics a niche they are better than others at, rather than being as good as another at that and worse, or not even capable, at everything else.

  17. #17
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Interesting idea...but counterpoint, it'd essentially be a way for F2P to access WF without paying/earning it. Also, I wonder if it would deprecate playing an actual WF, who wouldn't get the second set of racial bonuses that a Self-Forged would...
    The way I imagine it, for a non-WF race to effectively "become" WF, they would have to:
    1. Take at least 3 levels of Artificer (a non-f2p class) - in order to qualify for #2...
    2. Take the Construct Essence feat
    3. Use up one of the 6 enhancement tree slots
    4. Spend AP in the Self-Forged tree
    5. Depending on how it's laid out, and where the real WF-like stuff lies:
    5a. Give up taking tier 5 abilities in any other tree
    5b. Take 20 levels of Artificer, and use 40(?)AP in the tree, to get the capstone.

    That's some serious investment required, which taken too deeply would probably gimp more builds than it super-charges. Personally, I'd see it more as a flavour tree, which fleshies can dip into to get a bit more out of self-repairs, or perhaps some minor construct-related abilities.

  18. #18
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Umm... Gonna say no to this suggestion. Spreading useful enhancements over multiple trees already caused hair-pulling, cursing, and wishing biological impossibilities upon the devs. Adding more trees, across which more useful enhancements would be spread, would make matters much worse, imo.
    There is no free lunch.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    The arty tree I'd really like to see is "Self-forged".
    Feat pre-req of Construct Essence for the very first core enhancement, and then the tree provides increased repair/heal bonuses, etc., plus some of the physical enhancements in the Warforged racial tree, and culminating in things like: "you are now considered a living construct", neg-level immunity, and such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    The way I imagine it, for a non-WF race to effectively "become" WF, they would have to:
    1. Take at least 3 levels of Artificer (a non-f2p class) - in order to qualify for #2...
    2. Take the Construct Essence feat
    3. Use up one of the 6 enhancement tree slots
    4. Spend AP in the Self-Forged tree
    5. Depending on how it's laid out, and where the real WF-like stuff lies:
    5a. Give up taking tier 5 abilities in any other tree
    5b. Take 20 levels of Artificer, and use 40(?)AP in the tree, to get the capstone.

    That's some serious investment required, which taken too deeply would probably gimp more builds than it super-charges. Personally, I'd see it more as a flavour tree, which fleshies can dip into to get a bit more out of self-repairs, or perhaps some minor construct-related abilities.
    If the Devs are really commited to making the Racial Prestige Trees non-unique and just duplicates of already existing trees, the third Artificer tree shouldn't be "Self-Forged" but "Juggernaut". I agree that Construct Essence should be needed for non-WF to access the tree. The enhancements in the tree should then have dual usage: improve WF natural abilities while turning non-WF more into WF.

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