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  1. #1
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Default Combat archery testing: need help interpreting the results please

    TL;DR version: Combat archery is working for all types of crossbows and bows. It was changed to no longer augment point blank shot and now simply applies +1[W] regardless of range.

    I had heard that combat archery was working with crossbows but not bows. I hit level 27 last night and figured I was in a good position to test it. I picked up a heavy repeater, light repeater, great crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, longbow, and shortbow from the auction house and deconstructed each of them. I used blank sturdy deneith arrows and bolts for the testing. Four conditions were tested with each weapon:

    without combat archery out of point blank shot range
    without combat archery in point blank shot range
    with combat archery out of point blank shot range
    with combat archery in point blank shot range

    In point blank shot range was me standing right in front of the airship dummy. The /loc command shows the following coordinates at that position:

    r1 lx1121 ly876 i3 ox25.3 oy86.24 oz295.91 h260.2

    Out of point blank shot range was me standing at the furthest point from which I could still target the dummy. My guild has the Stormglory Typhoon (the largest airship) and I was basically standing at the base of the ramp leading up to the navigator with the dummy at the other end of the ship next to the door that leads below deck. The /loc command shows the following coordinates at that position:

    r1 lx1125 ly876 i3 ox100.51 oy85.77 oz299.18 h267.2

    If I understand correctly, this means I was standing 75 meters from the training dummy, which is well outside of point blank shot range.

    I unequipped all my gear, disabled all abilities, did not have any buffs, and killed the dummy before each trial. This was done on a level 26-27 artificer who is linked in my sig with all build details. He has the master engineer enhancement which grants a +3 enhancement bonus to any weapon. He also has all of the crossbow training enhancements from battle engineer which grant a total of +2 damage with repeaters, +6 damage with non-repeating crossbows, and nothing to bows. These enhancements result in a total bonus damage of +5 with repeaters, +9 with non-repeating crossbows, and +3 with bows. I have checked and rechecked and as far as I can tell, these should be the only extra damage.

    I recorded 25 hits with each weapon under each condition, except for repeaters I counted 27 hits (since that was a full volley). I did not count misses and there were no crits. I then found the average of each trial and noted the lowest and highest hits for each. The sample size is probably not large enough for the averages to provide any definitive evidence, but I figured I'd calculate them anyway.

    Listed below are the various weapon types along with their expected and actual damage under each condition. The first set of numbers is the base damage range including the bonus damage. The second set is the expected damage range on the dummy while helpless (base range x 1.5). The third set is the actual lowest and highest number from that trial. The fourth number is the average damage from that trial.

    Heavy Repeater 1d10 base damage
    (6-15) (9-22.5) (16-30) 21.63 without combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (7-25) (10.5-37.5) (15-39) 27.81 without combat archery in point blank shot range
    (6-15) (9-22.5) (25-42) 32.37 with combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (8-35) (12-52.5) (27-55) 40.30 with combat archery in point blank shot range

    Light Repeater 1d8 base damage
    (6-13) (9-19.5) (16-27) 22.29 without combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (7-21) (10.5-31.5) (13-31) 23.22 without combat archery in point blank shot range
    (6-13) (9-19.5) (19-37) 28.37 with combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (8-29) (12-43.5) (22-51) 36.59 with combat archery in point blank shot range

    Great Crossbow 2d8 base damage
    (11-25) (16.5-37.5) (28-37) 33.88 without combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (13-41) (19.5-61.5) (28-55) 42.00 without combat archery in point blank shot range
    (11-25) (16.5-37.5) (34-58) 45.64 with combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (15-57) (22.5-65.5) (46-72) 60.44 with combat archery in point blank shot range

    Heavy Crossbow 1d10 base damage
    (10-19) (15-28.5) (22-36) 27.80 without combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (11-29) (16.5-34.5) (22-40) 32.04 without combat archery in point blank shot range
    (10-19) (15-28.5) (27-48) 38.48 with combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (12-39) (18-58.5) (34-57) 43.48 with combat archery in point blank shot range

    Light Crossbow 1d8 base damage
    (10-17) (15-25.5) (19-33) 28.12 without combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (11-25) (16.5-37.5) (21-40) 30.32 without combat archery in point blank shot range
    (10-17) (15-25.5) (27-45) 35.32 with combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (12-33) (18-49.5) (27-49) 39.48 with combat archery in point blank shot range

    Longbow 1d8 base damage
    (4-11) (6-16.5) (10-21) 15.24 without combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (5-19) (7.5-28.5) (9-28) 18.08 without combat archery in point blank shot range
    (4-11) (6-16.5) (12-31) 21.80 with combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (6-27) (9-40.5) (18-40) 28.52 with combat archery in point blank shot range

    Shortbow 1d6 base damage
    (4-9) (6-13.5) (10-18) 14.16 without combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (5-15) (7.5-22.5) (9-22) 14.80 without combat archery in point blank shot range
    (4-9) (6-13.5) (13-25) 19.64 with combat archery out of point blank shot range
    (6-21) (9-31.5) (16-33) 25.16 with combat archery in point blank shot range

    So I'm having some trouble interpreting these results. In 20 out of the 28 trials, the highest actual damage dealt was higher than the maximum expected damage. This happened at least once in every condition. How can this be? Where is the extra damage coming from? As mentioned above, I have checked and rechecked and I should only be getting the bonus damage noted above. So what am I missing here?

    Since I can't figure out why the damage is higher than it should be, it's difficult to draw any conclusions. But the huge damage increase with combat archery in point blank shot range compared to without combat archery out of point blank shot range, seems to indicate that combat archery is working for all weapon types and is stacking appropriately with point blank shot.

    Another thing that stands out but doesn't quite make sense is that the results should be same in the conditions without combat archery out of point blank shot range and with combat archery out of point blank shot range, but they aren't. The damage with combat archery out of point blank shot range is clearly higher with every weapon type. The only explanation I can come up with for this is that combat archery is applying its bonus outside of point blank shot range. The feat description states that it adds to your point blank shot effect.

    So I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone can help me draw some more definitive conclusions from all of this. I think the information I have included here is sufficient, but I can post the actual numbers for each trial if anyone would find that useful, just let me know.
    Last edited by CThruTheEgo; 09-02-2013 at 06:57 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I think you conclusion appears to be correct. Point blank shot is working as it is supposed to. Combat archery is working, but at all ranges, instead of only at point blank shot ranges. Looks fairly conclusive to me.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I think you conclusion appears to be correct. Point blank shot is working as it is supposed to. Combat archery is working, but at all ranges, instead of only at point blank shot ranges. Looks fairly conclusive to me.
    That would explain why the results were so similar in the conditions without combat archery in and out of point blank shot range. But then I would expect closer results in the conditions with combat archery in and out of point blank shot range. And it still doesn't explain why every condition resulted in higher numbers than what was theoretically possible, even if both combat archery and point blank shot were applying.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

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    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    That would explain why the results were so similar in the conditions without combat archery in and out of point blank shot range. But then I would expect closer results in the conditions with combat archery in and out of point blank shot range. And it still doesn't explain why every condition resulted in higher numbers than what was theoretically possible, even if both combat archery and point blank shot were applying.
    I can't explain why the numbers are higher than what you would expect. I could never really understand why my Kensei did as much damage as he did in the old system either. Seemed like more than what i would have expected from known bonuses.

    Maybe you could try resetting your ap spent to 0 and testing it then. Minimizing all the possible bonuses would probably give the clearest test results.

    P.S. Don't you need to have point blank shot to qualify for combat archery? That would explain the differences with combat archery in and out of point blank shot ranges. The point blank effect is applying.
    Last edited by FestusHood; 08-27-2013 at 12:10 PM.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Maybe you could try resetting your ap spent to 0 and testing it then. Minimizing all the possible bonuses would probably give the clearest test results.
    I'm not sure how much more time I want to devote to testing this tbh. It seems clear enough to me that it is working now, so that's good enough for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    P.S. Don't you need to have point blank shot to qualify for combat archery? That would explain the differences with combat archery in and out of point blank shot ranges. The point blank effect is applying.
    Correct. I misread your previous post, my mistake.

    Thanks for the feedback FestusHood.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

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    Community Member nikos1313's Avatar
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    so, to sum up, is Combet Archery WAI atm? should i invest a slot n grab it on my arty?
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    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikos1313 View Post
    so, to sum up, is Combet Archery WAI atm? should i invest a slot n grab it on my arty?
    Well without understanding why the actual damage dealt was higher than any theoretical damage possible, it's difficult to say with certainty what is working. Nonetheless, as you can see from the results, the trials with combat archery show more damage than those without it. That's enough evidence for me to justify spending a feat.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  8. #8
    Community Member nikos1313's Avatar
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    before i get Combat Archery, my Needle was 2.50 (1d12 )-> 32.40

    after i got Combat Archery, my Needle was... again 2.50 (1d12 )-> 32.40

    any thoughts?



    EDIT: it might just be a display bug because i THINK that my damage numbers on the dummy are significantly higher..

    i say i THINK because i cant recall if i was buffed the same way before the feat *facepalm*

    i send a ticket 2 times, got same answer.. send a report.. that emans, noone will give me an answer so...
    Last edited by nikos1313; 08-27-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikos1313 View Post
    before i get Combat Archery, my Needle was 2.50 (1d12 )-> 32.40

    after i got Combat Archery, my Needle was... again 2.50 (1d12 )-> 32.40

    any thoughts?
    I wouldn't expect it to show up there. The bonus from point blank shot also does show up in the weapon exam window.

    If you want to test the feat it's a whole lot easier to do so with as few other bonuses as possible, otherwise you are just complicating the scenario. That's why I used base deconstructed weapons, arrows and bolts with no bonus, no buffs, no gear, etc. It makes the calculations much simpler and the effect from the feat much more obvious.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  10. #10
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    I wouldn't expect it to show up there. The bonus from point blank shot also does show up in the weapon exam window.

    If you want to test the feat it's a whole lot easier to do so with as few other bonuses as possible, otherwise you are just complicating the scenario. That's why I used base deconstructed weapons, arrows and bolts with no bonus, no buffs, no gear, etc. It makes the calculations much simpler and the effect from the feat much more obvious.
    Well done, CThru! +1

    Super happy Combat Archery is working!!! Woohooo, back to leading the dps again

  11. #11
    Community Member nikos1313's Avatar
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    ya i think it works also. i was gettin 100 damage in dummy, with dummy takin bormal, and not more damage. so i believe its working.

    +1 for the research !
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    Community Member wildcard1978's Avatar
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    no its not working for arty at all all his math is point blankonly if ya had a wole extra wep w the damge would be significantly higher in point blank then it has been hasn't worked since motu came out still know issue summit bug report

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    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcard1978 View Post
    no its not working for arty at all all his math is point blankonly if ya had a wole extra wep w the damge would be significantly higher in point blank then it has been hasn't worked since motu came out still know issue summit bug report
    Can you explain how you came to that conclusion? I'm more than willing to look for flaws in this testing, but simply saying "it doesn't work" is not productive. Please elaborate.

    I describe in the OP how I determined to be out of point blank shot range. Even if I was in point blank shot range, the numbers still don't add up. If you assume that combat archery is not working and that I was in point blank shot range the whole time then all of the tests should essentially be the same, and they clearly are not. In every case the results with combat archery are higher than those without, whether I was in point blank shot range or not.

    If you assume that combat archery is not working and that I was in or out of point blank shot range as stated in the tests, then the conditions out of point blank shot range should be the same with or without combat archery; and the conditions in point blank shot range should be the same with or without combat archery. Again, they are clearly not the same. In every case the results with combat archery in or out of point blank shot range are higher than those without combat archery in or out of point blank shot range.

    How do you explain this? If there is something I am not seeing, I would greatly appreciate it if you would explain it in greater detail.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

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    Community Member wildcard1978's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Can you explain how you came to that conclusion? I'm more than willing to look for flaws in this testing, but simply saying "it doesn't work" is not productive. Please elaborate.

    I describe in the OP how I determined to be out of point blank shot range. Even if I was in point blank shot range, the numbers still don't add up. If you assume that combat archery is not working and that I was in point blank shot range the whole time then all of the tests should essentially be the same, and they clearly are not. In every case the results with combat archery are higher than those without, whether I was in point blank shot range or not.

    If you assume that combat archery is not working and that I was in or out of point blank shot range as stated in the tests, then the conditions out of point blank shot range should be the same with or without combat archery; and the conditions in point blank shot range should be the same with or without combat archery. Again, they are clearly not the same. In every case the results with combat archery in or out of point blank shot range are higher than those without combat archery in or out of point blank shot range.

    How do you explain this? If there is something I am not seeing, I would greatly appreciate it if you would explain it in greater detail.
    yes tested it hundreds of time on my pure arty absolutely zero change in game with or without combat archery

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    Community Member wildcard1978's Avatar
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    also with deadly running ya would se even more drastic change in dame so no combat archeru does not work I have absolutely no change in damage with or without combat archery

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    Community Member wildcard1978's Avatar
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    unlees theres still say a class specific fix they got threw doesn't work for my arty period and sick of the rumors it does work if they fixed it would be a drastic change in damage with 2.5 wep w extra from deadly the combat archery feat and rge atuuned weapon only change in damage I gat at all was from half a wp w die I crit exactly the same I did before and after combat archery with the only change of a extra 5 damage befor miltiplier

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    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcard1978 View Post
    unlees theres still say a class specific fix they got threw doesn't work for my arty period and sick of the rumors it does work if they fixed it would be a drastic change in damage with 2.5 wep w extra from deadly the combat archery feat and rge atuuned weapon only change in damage I gat at all was from half a wp w die I crit exactly the same I did before and after combat archery with the only change of a extra 5 damage befor miltiplier
    No offense intended here wildcard, but it sounds like all you are saying is "I didn't notice any difference, therefore it is not working." Simply having the impression that it is not increasing your damage does not provide definitive evidence. I was tired of hearing the rumors as well, which is why I decided to do some testing and take a look at the results myself.

    You say you did some testing. Under what conditions did you test? Were you recording your results? If so, do you mind posting them? Did you account for other bonuses (e.g. from gear, buffs, feats, enhancements, etc.)? What weapons did you test it with, were they blanks?

    Also, you haven't addressed my comments in response to your first post. What do you think about the testing results that I got? How do you explain that in all cases combat archery shows an increase in damage? I say again, I'd like to engage in a discussion about this. If I have made a mistake in my testing, I would like to know where I went wrong. But my testing results indicate that combat archery is working, and I'll have to stick to the actual evidence until someone can show me why it is wrong.
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    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    To verify that I was out of point blank shot range when indicated, I checked the /loc command at my testing points. The wiki states "that the /loc chat command shows your current location in meters."

    This is my position in point blank shot range which was defined as standing right in front of the training dummy:

    r1 lx1121 ly876 i3 ox25.3 oy86.24 oz295.91 h260.2

    This is my position out of point blank shot range:

    r1 lx1125 ly876 i3 ox100.51 oy85.77 oz299.18 h267.2

    I admit, I don't know what all of that means. But, the only number which changes significantly is the ox position, which makes sense since I basically walked straight backwards away from the dummy. So if I am reading this correctly, then I was standing a distance of 75 meters from the training dummy, which would be well outside of point blank shot range. Am I understanding this correctly?
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

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    I believe (not in game currently) that the description for the combat archery feat has changed and now only says that it increases the damage by 1W and gives 2% dodge when using a bow. It no longer makes any mention of needing to be within point blank shot range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CeltEireson View Post
    I believe (not in game currently) that the description for the combat archery feat has changed and now only says that it increases the damage by 1W and gives 2% dodge when using a bow. It no longer makes any mention of needing to be within point blank shot range.
    Combat Archery
    Requires: Point Blank Shot
    Requires: DEX 21
    Epic Feat: Your ranged damage is increased by +1[W]. You gain a 2% Dodge bonus while using a ranged weapon.

    Good catch Celt and gratz to CThru for coming to the conclusion he did without actually reading the Tooltip. By doing so he provides further evidence that his testing was sound and that CA is working. Mind you those who 'feel' it is not will likely remain unconvinced.

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