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  1. #1
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    Default Devs....re: Beguile

    Its not WAI, officially now. That's not really a surprise to anyone who's used it or seen it used in group play. And its going to be addressed, which is fair.

    HOWEVER...could you please address a few points, considering we're still in the nascent stages of adjusting to the new EP system?

    -How is it going to be adjusted? Is it currently giving more than it should, and it will merely be brought to its proper values as described? Will the overall design be revamped? Or will it simply be disallowed or reduced against red/purple named? Or does it have to go back through the entire design process, and you don't know yet?

    -Now that you've let the cat out of the bag that it is changing, please get it over with sooner rather than later. No one wants to have their characters in limbo, with a lame-duck skill that will be nerfed "Soon". Don't put that Damoclean sword over us.

    Also, now that we know its time is short, people are going to be abusing it extra-hard, getting their easy FOTs etc. while they still can, so its going to do even more damage to the economy etc. now than it was before.

    -Especially since the EP is still essentially new, PLEASE consider granting an LR token for Druids when the changes hit (or, hell, just give everyone another LR20 if they've used theirs already, it hasn't been long enough where it'd make that much difference). We tested and reported the efficacy of Beguile in the beta process - its not an exploit. We were given the skill and took it in good faith. Don't punish us because an error in coding or design made it through to Live.

    I don't expect my carefully-planned builds to be completely future-proof....but I would like it if they lasted longer than a week...

  2. #2

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    It's a CC effect. Surely the fix will be to make red/purple named immune to it. Done and done.

  3. #3
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Lol

    It's what, three AP? Make a plan on where to spend those if beguile becomes "worthless" (aka not-op/moderately effective); or if it's just brought down from omg to decent, leave points spent as is... I really don't see how any modification they make to beguile could require a new reincarnation to adapt for.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  4. #4
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    yea, dont agree to another 20LR, or even a regular. honestly, everyone knew that it wasnt WAI, so splashing was a risk you took then you need to sleep with your decision.

    it being fixed isnt a concern, how it being fixed is. Just cause its a CC effect (honestly it isnt, but w/e) doesnt mean red/purple should be immune, I've seen several enhancements effect red/purple and as the thread previously stated, That is the only place outside of EE Giants that it currently is able to stack up more then 10 stacks (which btw is like 9-12secs),

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's a CC effect. Surely the fix will be to make red/purple named immune to it. Done and done.
    That makes perfect sense. Which is why I'm hesitant to assume that's how it will happen

    Also, purple named immunity (or at least ~75% resistance) seems expectable - but I think red names should only get 50% resistance, full immunity seems too harsh.

    If it only works on trash mobs, then its really a pointless skill - how many trash fights will last 25 seconds to get full stack? Trash fights are only dangerous when there's large numbers, and Beguile only affects 1 enemy per second, so as a CC skill its only really suited for helping in longer, dangerous, 1v1 fights; ie, boss fights.

    If they make it not work at all vs purple and red, then they should make it into proc-on-damage, and not proc-on-attack, so you can use it with AOE attacks/IPS, and return its utility vs trash packs...but then you're getting into redesign discussions, which I figure is beyond the scope of a hotfix.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Lol

    It's what, three AP? Make a plan on where to spend those if beguile becomes "worthless" (aka not-op/moderately effective); or if it's just brought down from omg to decent, leave points spent as is... I really don't see how any modification they make to beguile could require a new reincarnation to adapt for.
    Because a lot of people took 1 Druid just for access to Beguile, because of its extreme CC efficacy. Take that away, and a lot of people are going to want to spend that level elsewhere - and there's no "Reset Class Level" button like there is for enhancements.
    Last edited by droid327; 08-27-2013 at 12:21 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violith View Post
    ...splashing was a risk you took then you need to sleep with your decision.
    No, I don't buy that. Like I said, its not an exploit that I was abusing, it wasn't an unintended confluence of game mechanics working in my favor, its not finding something that clearly wasn't intended to do what it does. I've found those, too (ML1 T3 L16 Cannith Challenge gear, eg). It was one skill that was doing exactly what it said it should do - slows down mobs over time.

    Its not our job to tell the devs "no thanks, that's too powerful, I'm not going to use that skill". Its our job to alert the devs, during testing "hey, this skills really powerful, you might want to look at it", which we did. When the devs pushed it Live, unchanged, then that AFAIC made it a legitimate choice.

    They change their mind about that now, that's fine - but then we should get to change OUR mind about how we built our characters, too.

  7. #7
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Also, now that we know its time is short, people are going to be abusing it extra-hard, getting their easy FOTs etc. while they still can, so its going to do even more damage to the economy etc. now than it was before.
    The rest of this thread aside, How does this bug effect the economy of the game at all?
    As you've said it's most useful against EE bosses, and raid bosses. Raid gear being BTCoA, and EE's taking just as long to finish due to this bug only really being useful against bosses I fail to see how this could have any effect on the economy at all.

    I could be wrong, but that just doesn't make sense to me.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Presumably he means raid bypass timers.
    All the various trickle-down effects of there being an "easy window" for raids. People not running other content, affecting the availability of other player-sourced commodities. Demand for items that you can get via the raid going down (ie +4 tomes). Also, someone pointed out the Beguile situation makes farming scales in Tor extremely easy.

  10. #10
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    Slow effects aren't suppose to work on red/purple mobs, that's the bug, and that's what's going to be fixed. This has been a stated immunity of bosses ever since people were gimping Lolth with waves of exhaustion.

    It's not suppose to be a premiere or class defining ability, just a passive that slows down trash mobs a bit that get hit with your AoEs (which for a caster druid is going to be most mobs).

    The spellpower reduction should still work on bosses to some extent (might fade faster, and they might resist some). -50 spellpower on a boss isn't amazing, but it's something as many bosses spam spells of one form or another.

    As far as respecs go, I sympathize, but there's no precedent for giving out respecs every time an ability gets changed. They'd have to give most toons a respec every patch, and that's just not going to happen. I do think the cost of respecs are a bit high in this game given how complex it is (easy to mess things up) and how often the rules change, but I don't see that changing (probably my biggest expenditure of TP after adventure packs... bad for me, but good for turbine I suppose, and they make the rules).
    Last edited by SerPounce; 08-27-2013 at 08:25 AM.
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  11. #11
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    I'm glad they've decided to fix this. Unfortunately Turbine often takes a surprisingly long time to fix things like this and they wreak havoc with the state of the game in the meantime.

    It should be no more or less powerful than any other easily-obtained, tier 1 ability. If other tier 1s that involve CC don't work on reds/purples, neither should this. It's just that simple.

    What's really sad is so many players revealing their true colors by taking advantage of things like this, even after Turbine has flatly declared that they are not WAI. Not referring to the OP or anyone else here, just saying that it reflects poorly on the community in general.

    Given that they will simply be adjusting the ability to work as it was intended, I am 100% opposed to giving druids an LR token for this. If you were building a druid anyway you can just reset the tree if you no longer want it. If you respecced your character to exploit what was rather obviously something way overpowered, you should have expected a high likelihood that it would be corrected in the future.

    There are going to be other adjustments and changes no doubt, and if they want to give everyone an LR token I wouldn't be opposed. But giving druids only a free LR over this? I would not like to see this sort of behavior rewarded.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 08-27-2013 at 08:26 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's a CC effect. Surely the fix will be to make red/purple named immune to it. Done and done.
    100% immunity is completely worthless. It just works too good now, dial it back.

  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I'm glad they've decided to fix this. Unfortunately Turbine often takes a surprisingly long time to fix things like this and they wreak havoc with the state of the game in the meantime.

    What's really sad is so many players revealing their true colors by taking advantage of things like this, even after Turbine has flatly declared that they are not WAI. Not referring to the OP or anyone else here, just saying that it reflects poorly on the community in general.

    Given that they will simply be adjusting the ability to work as it was intended, I am 100% opposed to giving druids an LR token for this. If you were building a druid anyway you can just reset the tree if you no longer want it. If you respecced your character to exploit what was rather obviously something way overpowered, you should have expected a high likelihood that it would be corrected in the future. I would not like to see that sort of behavior rewarded.
    Actually no, once they nerf it to the ground I'll be stuck with an ap sink for a completely 100% useless ability so that I can get my sla's. If it does nothing to debuff red/purple names the description might as well read "beguile: Spend 3 points here to purchase useful things. Does nothing otherwise."

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Actually no, once they nerf it to the ground I'll be stuck with an ap sink for a completely 100% useless ability so that I can get my sla's. If it does nothing to debuff red/purple names the description might as well read "beguile: Spend 3 points here to purchase useful things. Does nothing otherwise."
    Yes, if you don't like it, then you can spend the points on something else. Claiming that it "does nothing" because it won't work on reds/purples -- assuming they do that -- would be false.

    It's a tier 1 ability. It's not supposed to have a significant impact on quest/raid bosses.

  15. #15
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yes, if you don't like it, then you can spend the points on something else. Claiming that it "does nothing" because it won't work on reds/purples -- assuming they do that -- would be false.

    It's a tier 1 ability. It's not supposed to have a significant impact on quest/raid bosses.
    When everything but red/purple named mobs die in one to three hits from your spells, having an ability that can only be used on said 1-3 hitters, that stacks to 25, is kind of a waste.

    I hope their intended change would be to make it stack to 15 on red named and 10 on purple. If it does nothing to red and purple it will be worthless to casters who do lots of damage.... My archer could likely still get some milage out of it even if it doesn't
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  16. #16
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yes, if you don't like it, then you can spend the points on something else. Claiming that it "does nothing" because it won't work on reds/purples -- assuming they do that -- would be false.
    on my caster druid no I really can't spend it on something else because then I wouldn't have slas which greatly help the class. However anything but red/purples die very quickly even on ee, this means that for 1 mob at a time which is all it can effect the mobs will be dead before it ever stacks up. That's worthless. That's what I want to make sure doesn't happen.
    It's a tier 1 ability. It's not supposed to have a significant impact on quest/raid bosses.
    False
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    All of these have can have an effect greater than what many are proposing of eliminating beguiles effect on red named and above. This is not a complete list.

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    I wouldn't be so sure that they plan to make it unusable on bosses. I assume that the bug is the result, which isn't a -50 percent to attack speed, but like a -95 percent or so. Simply bringing it inline with its description would be the fix I assume would happen.

  18. #18
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure that they plan to make it unusable on bosses. I assume that the bug is the result, which isn't a -50 percent to attack speed, but like a -95 percent or so. Simply bringing it inline with its description would be the fix I assume would happen.
    I would like to see this happen, just nervous as such reasonable action doesn't fit past history well.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yes, if you don't like it, then you can spend the points on something else. Claiming that it "does nothing" because it won't work on reds/purples -- assuming they do that -- would be false.

    It's a tier 1 ability. It's not supposed to have a significant impact on quest/raid bosses.
    It shouldnt work on red and purple names or at least no where as good as it does now, but that doesn't mean it has to be almost worthless, if they are going to make red purples immune to it, dial up the stack speeds, so its like 5% 10% a hit and even if it only goes up to 30% or so it will be worth it, this is vs trash.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I would like to see this happen, just nervous as such reasonable action doesn't fit past history well.
    Sorry, but an ability you can get with a 1 level splash reducing the attack speed of quest/raid bosses by even 50% is nowhere near reasonable.

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