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  1. #81
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    How much of this power creep talk boils down to the new deadly prefix? That is pretty small, almost tiny, in comparison with what kind of power epic destinies brought. I'd give odds it's a purposeful change by Turbine in order to try and close some gaps between the weak on average melee damage output in heroic levels compared with aoe blasting sorcerers and blade barrier kiting divines. A fighter can hit for +6 damage at level 15 now? Cool, that's going to help him when there's one mob left standing from the group of six that were just incinerated by dbf.

    U19's "power creep" is pretty light on the "power", pretty slow on the "creep".

  2. #82
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    Power Creep is a design issue..plain and simple. It can be designed around while still providing a balance of power vs difficulty scaling. The simplest and most rational approach is to not invalidate end game gear from a previous expansion, but offer ways to upgrade that gear. All epic gear should be upgradeable and customizeable as with eGH. Augments give us customization, but much of the old gear is rendered worthless because it is superceded by new packs with better base stat items. If we had an option to upgrade gear from the older epics by collecting special ingredients from those old packs it would both recycle that content and provide an alternative to upgrade your loot you spent a lot of time obtaining.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    How much of this power creep talk boils down to the new deadly prefix? That is pretty small, almost tiny, in comparison with what kind of power epic destinies brought. I'd give odds it's a purposeful change by Turbine in order to try and close some gaps between the weak on average melee damage output in heroic levels compared with aoe blasting sorcerers and blade barrier kiting divines. A fighter can hit for +6 damage at level 15 now? Cool, that's going to help him when there's one mob left standing from the group of six that were just incinerated by dbf.

    U19's "power creep" is pretty light on the "power", pretty slow on the "creep".
    The more I play with the new powercreep loot, this is the opinion I've come to as well. And it isn't just heroic, btw. The strongest endgame build is still a caster build, and EE saves are now low again, so there's that, too.

    But, most people will still complain about this. There seems to be an unspoken DDO forums rule where we never admit how OP casters are compared to melee. They, of course, are, and there's no actual denying it. The people claiming otherwise are either lying or bad at the game.

    The funny thing is that this is the proper way to handle the problem. Buff melees. The other option is to nerf casters, but noone wants that.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    But, most people will still complain about this. There seems to be an unspoken DDO forums rule where we never admit how OP casters are compared to melee. They, of course, are, and there's no actual denying it. The people claiming otherwise are either lying or bad at the game.
    I just TRed out of my fighter -- which I enjoyed for quite a while -- because in the new U19 content I was basically redundant in any group with even one decent wizard.

    If anything, class balance is getting worse, not better.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I just TRed out of my fighter -- which I enjoyed for quite a while -- because in the new U19 content I was basically redundant in any group with even one decent wizard.

    If anything, class balance is getting worse, not better.
    It's always been horrible. Now it's less horrible. Most buffs through the enhancement pass benefited melee, and the majority of new random loot benefits melee as well.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The funny thing is that this is the proper way to handle the problem. Buff melees. The other option is to nerf casters, but noone wants that.
    Yes - deadly is a reasonable melee buff in heroic levels, and a quite minor damage buff relative to waste laying, furyshotting, masters blitzing, everything is nothin-ing epic melee characters. It's a ranged buff too, but people never complained about artificer crossbow dps being high in upper heroics; bow users, did they need a buff in heroics? I don't know. But after years of "ranged is gimp" I'll feel fine if those long suffering bow users feel some love for a couple updates too.

    It also demands a slot if you want it, which adds to the gear puzzle rather than taking away - slot it on cloak, goggles, ring, helmet? What does it replace and where does the replaced gear feature move?

    The fact that you can get spell focus up to +4 and +5 is still only a 1-2 increase over top sticks before, and again for a while now players have asked for dc casting to be more viable. Well there you go.

    I guess seeing random loot +8 stat go to +10 and named to +11 is a visually stark looking and attention grabbing change but practically speaking? Overreaction, IMO.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The more I play with the new powercreep loot, this is the opinion I've come to as well. And it isn't just heroic, btw. The strongest endgame build is still a caster build, and EE saves are now low again, so there's that, too.

    But, most people will still complain about this. There seems to be an unspoken DDO forums rule where we never admit how OP casters are compared to melee. They, of course, are, and there's no actual denying it. The people claiming otherwise are either lying or bad at the game.

    The funny thing is that this is the proper way to handle the problem. Buff melees. The other option is to nerf casters, but noone wants that.
    Not only are people not willing to admit casters are OP, when you finally get them to have that discussion, they will not admit which aspect of casters is OP. At first they think you want their damage or DCs nerfed, or more immunities....but when they find out the real reason classes that are supposed to be glass cannons are OP is due to self healing and HP buffs mostly being linear, the thread becomes a massive pile on about how mass exodus would occur if caster healing was lessened or taken away.

    If you start talking about how barbarians should be able to heal when raged however, many of those same people will tell you that since they are such massive DPS, they should be required to sacrifice something for that DPS - which is why they dont get to self heal as well, especially while raged. This is right before they tab back into the game and plow more content with their OP caster, which crushes this content orders of magnitude more quickly than melee does. In the past I even brought up that if barbarians, as well as other melee, were given an unlimited heal spell they could cast any time they want, they still would not be as powerful as casters.

    Ive taken most class balance observtions with a grain of salt due to the skewed views many have toward mana bar classes being just fine, while not supporting buffing melee to prevent more caster nerfs, in the name of balance.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Not only are people not willing to admit casters are OP, when you finally get them to have that discussion, they will not admit which aspect of casters is OP. At first they think you want their damage or DCs nerfed, or more immunities....but when they find out the real reason classes that are supposed to be glass cannons are OP is due to self healing and HP buffs mostly being linear, the thread becomes a massive pile on about how mass exodus would occur if caster healing was lessened or taken away.
    The two restrictions that keep arcane power in check in D&D -- somewhat, they are still quite powerful -- is hard limits on how many spells you can cast, and fragility in terms of having poor AC and low HP.

    DDO has broken both of those balancing factors with warforged casters who can bump their Con to the sky and then self-heal, frequent rest shrines and cheap mana potions.

    I used some of the "buffed" capabilities of melee before I TRed. From what I could tell, my effective power went up by less than the typical wizard's did. I'd run quests and everything would be dead before I could even close to melee range. When I did manage to get to a mob, I'd spend 30 seconds beating it down only to then see it FODed. Then the wizard would move on to the next group and take most of them out with one button press. SP totals are so high now and shrines so common that they rarely run out of points, and if they do? No problem, we have potions for that.

    Funny that a wizard can buy a cheap potion from the DDO store that lets him heal himself to full a dozen times over, but when melees ask for just simple, inexpensive heal potions, everyone freaks out.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 08-29-2013 at 01:45 PM.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    In simple terms. Yes. Unless you can think of a situation where you don't want to kill the mob as fast as possible.
    Yes, because one shotting a mummy using Silver Slinger/Hand of the Tombs, or a Wraith or Spectre, is taking entirely too long to kill them.



    You could also have used Eternal Bracers, Mabar Cloak, Ghostwalker Cloak, Spectral Gloves, there is a pretty good list of other stuff that could pull off this effect, so, giving up DPS for the effect is not really something players should have to do, nor want to do. That is where the problem lies.
    I could also use ghost touched, or ghost bane now. However, the response is specifically geared towards Dream Visor.


    And, which mobs would this be? Off the top of my head, I don't which mob or group of mobs, this is. So I don't plan for this specific circumstance. Which brings up the point that this situation you are talking about really only becomes a boon, if it exist or is common enough to justify the gear slot choice. It is more then just theory, but application of the gear and it's use in the game that come into play.
    There's a whole chain, or more, in the inspired quarter with spiders that are both incorporeal and not undead.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Is it really better, just because the damage is higher?
    Yes, because the extra damage is the most important component. Ungood already explained this. To hit is not much good since the AC nerf; basically as long as you're proficient you're hitting. Spot? Meh, not on my melee. Incorporeal? My main already wears a Mabar cloak but also has spectral gloves.

    Just as importantly:
    1) Before the addition of deadly, the dream visor was basically the only way to get a competence bonus to damage, so it was unique.
    2) The EE dream visor was one of the most valuable pieces of gear in the game. We had people swapping them 1 to 1 with Otto's boxes.
    3) Most of all, it's a frikkin level 25 named item! That necklace is a random level 15 item, and it even has an augment slot in it. My main point was, it would fine if the minimum level for the Deadly prefix was more reasonable.

    P.S. I never had a dream visor, so I'm not sore myself. It's just a good example.
    Last edited by stoerm; 08-29-2013 at 04:35 PM.
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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Yes, because one shotting a mummy using Silver Slinger/Hand of the Tombs, or a Wraith or Spectre, is taking entirely too long to kill them.
    I could also use ghost touched, or ghost bane now. However, the response is specifically geared towards Dream Visor.
    No, In this example, you specifically said the dreams visor's worth was in the ability to hit incorporeal, which, given all the examples you used, the use of the dream visor vs something else, is a non-issue, as there is no intrinsic advantage of the dream visor in these situations.

    There's a whole chain, or more, in the inspired quarter with spiders that are both incorporeal and not undead.
    They are also not quests suited for a level 23 Epic Character, nor are they suited for a level 12 Heroic toon, which means you are either vastly over leveling them at 23, or your rocking some pretty low level gear going into that quest.

    To each their own on that, however.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    3) Most of all, it's a frikkin level 25 named item! That necklace is a random level 15 item, and it even has an augment slot in it. My main point was, it would fine if the minimum level for the Deadly prefix was more reasonable.

    P.S. I never had a dream visor, so I'm not sore myself. It's just a good example.
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The definition you speak of was in the mid to late 90s. Welcome to 2013. Language evolves through its slang. the gaming world nowdays doesnt even remotely resemble those times, and neither do the definitions of 15 year old slang continue to be restricted to mean the same thing it did in that era.
    Which is why I am doing the public a service and letting them know that you are using some made up and watered-downed worthless definition of the term P2W to mean simply being able to buy in game items with money.

    You should thank me for that, the truth is, if the term changed as much as you want to believe, I would not need to let people know in what sense you are using the term.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope, because they are both making money off of shard sales
    Are you just grasping at straws at this point or is this wishful thinking?

    Really, for all the hype it gets, it's pretty common loot-gen, It's not bound, it does not even bind on equip, so you can get it for plat, you can get it free from friends, you can give it away even after you used it, or you can just get some yourself solo if you want, or bring some F2P extra boxes for better chances if that is your thing.

    People don't need to run raids, they don't need to get large groups of people, they don't need to roll, or anything, they don't have to suffer 1% drop chances or getting skunked, they don't need to buy shards, packs, or anything at all to increase the process by which they acquire it.

    they are setting it up so the next raid will entice people to buy even more bypass timers.
    You really think making the all the previous purchases (uses) of raid bypass timers obsolete (as well as the raids themselves) with loot-gen will inspire people to buy more raid bypass timers in the future?

    Well if you think that is what will happen, I'll leave you to it.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-29-2013 at 06:02 PM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Is it really better, just because the damage is higher? I don't think so, and I don't think so because of the other stats on the Visor. Full time ghost touched equivalent comes immediately to mind. This means that vs undead, Dream Visor is superior as it allows me to use my Silver Slinger and Hand of the Tombs. This also means that, vs incorporeal mobs that aren't undead, Dream Visor is superior as it allows me to use my para xbow and which ever rune arm I desire to use, or need to use situationally. You see, bigger numbers are all good and all, but I'll take the smaller numbers as opposed to missing due to incorporeal. In the long run, the smaller numbers negating incorporeal mean that my average dps is going to be higher anyway. You can have +100 to damage, but if you miss due to the mob being incorporeal, you just did 0 dmg.

    So here I am with the flexibility of not being pigeonholed into a specific weapon, ghost touched/ghost bane, in favor of a weapon that I would prefer to use due to using Dream Visor instead of "hey, that has slightly higher damage, so I'll force myself to have to carry yet another xbow because bigger numbers". So no, just because one stat comes out higher in some situations doesn't mean it's superior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    No, In this example, you specifically said the dreams visor's worth was in the ability to hit incorporeal, which, given all the examples you used, the use of the dream visor vs something else, is a non-issue, as there is no intrinsic advantage of the dream visor in these situations.



    They are also not quests suited for a level 23 Epic Character, nor are they suited for a level 12 Heroic toon, which means you are either vastly over leveling them at 23, or your rocking some pretty low level gear going into that quest.

    To each their own on that, however.
    Above is exactly what I said. I didn't bother to pull the quote I responded to, but it was discussing the Dream Visor being obsolete due to some other goggles. My now 17 2nd life FvS is using an elite set of Dream Visors, so I guess I'm way over leveled for the Inspired Quarter. Oh, wait...

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    I think this is true, but at the same time more power isn't the answer. More flexibility IMO is. Take the enhancement pass for instance; When the idea was originally thrown at us the devs were talking about how we could have multiple Pre's through the racial tree's. This I think would have been a step in the right direction, more so if they had simply left the Pre's the way they were.(Obviously the broken/useless ones like Deepwood Stalker should have been finished/fixed and we should have gotten new trees for classes that only had one like Cleric.)

    This would have opened up new and interesting build options, while giving the feeling of more power, it would not have had the same power creep effect that what they gave us did. Basically, most builds would have been different, but not vastly more powerful. The AP's would be super tight on any build trying to manage 2 full Pre's so it would have, in a way, been a self checking system for power creep.

    In the end, the biggest selling point this game has is it's character customization. What this means is that diversity and wider building options will make this game go further than power ever will. The thing is, Sure everyone was asking for a better weapon than ESOS, or EThornLord but they weren't leaving in droves because they didn't get those weapons. Now though? When every update beings about more epic loot that outshines everything you just spent ages farming, people begin to ask themselves, what's the point?

    Sure ESOS may have been the most powerful THF weapon in the game for a very long time, And when MOTU came out a lot of the previous epic items were left in the dust. But this could have been fixed. By updating the old epic items to better suite todays end game. This would have made it so that there were clear best in slot items, but there were also a lot of other weapons that were nice to have regardless of this fact, and would have kept more people playing.
    I'm A 7th life arcane, 3 past wizzy, 3 past sorc. Having tried all savants, I hated them and have always run a necro sorc with full range spells capabislity. Now with this cheezy tree enhancement system (ddo for dummies) I am forced to make my sorc a savant. I have spent hundreds maybe thousands on this game over the years because it was the only one so customizable. now my kids won't even play anymore, its boring, its too easy and its not true to DnD any longer. You went too far Turbine. All sorcs are the same now, you have limited my choices, you have lost a paying customer.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Powercreep? Yes, there's always power creep. And then sometimes there's Usain Bolt-style U19 power sprint.
    Yes, that!

    Slow power-creep is fine. Players use good stuff they worked hard for, and continue to work on incrementally getting better stuff.

    Power-sprint that makes entire gear-sets obsolete instantly and has players asking, why do I bother?

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The strongest endgame build is still a caster build, and EE saves are now low again, so there's that, too.
    LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There seems to be an unspoken DDO forums rule where we never admit how OP casters are compared to melee. They, of course, are, and there's no actual denying it. The people claiming otherwise are either lying or bad at the game.
    I know I'm bad at playing melees, but I have a number of guild-mates and other acquaintances that are not. And if you think "casters" are OP compared to melee, maybe you are the one who is bad at the game. Melees who know what they are doing dominate.

    As for casters being OP...nope, they're not. Now, if you were to claim that SHIRADI is OP, you might have a better chance of convincing me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The funny thing is that this is the proper way to handle the problem. Buff melees.
    The funnier thing is that they DID that already, massively, over a year ago, with the introduction of Epic Destinies. Prior to EDs, casters did have a MUCH easier time than melees. But that really hasn't been true since U14.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I can't seem to grasp what most people wants anymore. New gears worth persuing without invalidating old one?
    I can't speak for "most people", but, for me, yes, that.

    How about new lootgen that is almost as good as older named gear, and new named gear that is slightly better than old named gear?

    People can keep using their old raid loot and feel it's worthwhile while they chase the slight upgrade of new named gear now available. And people who didn't get the old named gear can fairly easily get almost-as-good lootgen as a viable alternative.

    Instead we got new lootgen that is vastly better than any named gear. And new named gear that varies wildly between vastly better than old named gear, and just plain vendor trash.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    LOL.



    I know I'm bad at playing melees, but I have a number of guild-mates and other acquaintances that are not. And if you think "casters" are OP compared to melee, maybe you are the one who is bad at the game. Melees who know what they are doing dominate.

    As for casters being OP...nope, they're not. Now, if you were to claim that SHIRADI is OP, you might have a better chance of convincing me.



    The funnier thing is that they DID that already, massively, over a year ago, with the introduction of Epic Destinies. Prior to EDs, casters did have a MUCH easier time than melees. But that really hasn't been true since U14.
    It's quite clear that you don't play top-level content. An optimally played melee will always be behind an optimally played caster. This would be easy to prove me wrong. Show me a melee soloing EE FOT, because guess what, good players can solo EE FOT but none of them can do it on a melee. Odd, isn't it?

    Further, a caster in Shiradi is still a caster and able to do things that a melee in Shiradi can't. You're putting very odd restrictions on what a caster is and how it should play.

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