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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    It's funny that you think the enhancement pass would have been well-received without the power increase. Even seconds before its release (and still some poor unfortunate people who are really bad at this game are still parroting it) everyone was making a fool of themselves talking about all the nerfs. They've lost all their credibility now, but if we didn't have the massive power increase, I believe there were many people on the side lines ready to jump in with their complaints.
    No doubt the many threads and dozens of pages pointing out splitting class skills to multiple trees, big reductions in hit points, and so on are all delusional.

    Bit hard to say since the enhancement system is so bug-riddled. One thing's for sure though, it certainly suffered from lack of innovation and imagination. Any time the majority of your players are ambivalent about your proposed change, you've blown it - fanbois notwithstanding.

  2. #62
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Getting more powerful gear is fine, that's what people play for. I don't mind the Cleaver or EAGA being more powerful than a MIN2. The crucial thing is the minimum level. In DDO we can TR, which helps a lot to retain gear value. All three of those weapons can still be valuable to me. I will keep them all and switch over to the next one as I level up again.

    What is not so nice is introducing new gear that obsoletes old gear, because it's both better and has the same or lower minimum level. The worst is when frequently dropping random gear obsoletes named or raid gear. A good example is the new deadly prefix. I have a minimum lvl 15 necklace with a +6 competence bonus to damage, i.e. it's better than an EE Dream Visor. ***?
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  3. #63
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Loved the video, although power creep happened to MtG before I quit. Not sure about now but it doesn't even look the same to me

    U19 is all about power creep and if the developers had watched this video maybe they could of done something better/different.

    What is sad is sense MoTU there is almost a BiS for each build (Tank/melee/caster) as certain items are just "that much better" than anything else. There is a little flexibility but not much. That is why there is so much heavy farming for that "last piece." It just happens that everyone wants that "last piece" because it is BiS no matter what you rolled.

  4. #64
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    Getting more powerful gear is fine, that's what people play for.
    First of all, everyone claiming this is wrong.



    Here's a simplified (and poor quality) image, but it shows the exponential growth of the internet. One of the games praised for its diversity and game design in the OP's video was Ultima Online. Ultima Online was most popular in the late 1990s and early 2000s. As you can see, the internet is approximately 1000 times as big as it was in 1998:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    In 1998, the game expanded, and the number of users reached over 100,000 worldwide
    Ultima Online had more people playing it, in 1998, with higher telecommunication costs, worse graphics, and inferior technology, than DDO has playing NOW, in 2013. Some people will claim that Ultima Online had no competition. Well, that's partly true because the competition was mostly inferior. Their game was better. But it's not true they had no competition. There were MUDs and MUSHes galore in that era, and many had graphical interfaces.

    For the vast majority of people who play online games, the GAME is the only thing that matters. Turbine has no idea how much money they have LOST over the years by horribly inferior game design. Their graphics and technology are quite good relatively speaking. Their game engine is powerful. Their game design? Holy cow... it is bad.

    The people that think power creep is normal and sustainable are living in their own little worlds. I have seen a thousand people -just on the forums alone- come and go... all spouting the same or similar nonsense. Power creep makes people not want to play, and the aspect that it interferes with the most, which the video hilariously left out completely...

    ...it interferes with GAMEPLAY. The only thing that REALLY matters.

  5. #65
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    First of all, everyone claiming this is wrong.
    Yep. And money doesn't matter, only love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Here's a simplified (and poor quality) image, but it shows the exponential growth of the internet.
    No it does not. It's a graph showing an increase of Internet connection bandwidth from ~100kbps to ~100Mbps. It has nothing to do with the number of connections.
    Last edited by stoerm; 08-29-2013 at 02:37 AM.
    Praise the Dark Six and pass the heals to pure melees.
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  6. #66
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    Getting more powerful gear is fine, that's what people play for. I don't mind the Cleaver or EAGA being more powerful than a MIN2. The crucial thing is the minimum level. In DDO we can TR, which helps a lot to retain gear value. All three of those weapons can still be valuable to me. I will keep them all and switch over to the next one as I level up again.

    What is not so nice is introducing new gear that obsoletes old gear, because it's both better and has the same or lower minimum level. The worst is when frequently dropping random gear obsoletes named or raid gear. A good example is the new deadly prefix. I have a minimum lvl 15 necklace with a +6 competence bonus to damage, i.e. it's better than an EE Dream Visor. ***?
    Is it really better, just because the damage is higher? I don't think so, and I don't think so because of the other stats on the Visor. Full time ghost touched equivalent comes immediately to mind. This means that vs undead, Dream Visor is superior as it allows me to use my Silver Slinger and Hand of the Tombs. This also means that, vs incorporeal mobs that aren't undead, Dream Visor is superior as it allows me to use my para xbow and which ever rune arm I desire to use, or need to use situationally. You see, bigger numbers are all good and all, but I'll take the smaller numbers as opposed to missing due to incorporeal. In the long run, the smaller numbers negating incorporeal mean that my average dps is going to be higher anyway. You can have +100 to damage, but if you miss due to the mob being incorporeal, you just did 0 dmg.

    So here I am with the flexibility of not being pigeonholed into a specific weapon, ghost touched/ghost bane, in favor of a weapon that I would prefer to use due to using Dream Visor instead of "hey, that has slightly higher damage, so I'll force myself to have to carry yet another xbow because bigger numbers". So no, just because one stat comes out higher in some situations doesn't mean it's superior.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Is it really better, just because the damage is higher? I don't think so, and I don't think so because of the other stats on the Visor. Full time ghost touched equivalent comes immediately to mind. This means that vs undead, Dream Visor is superior as it allows me to use my Silver Slinger and Hand of the Tombs. This also means that, vs incorporeal mobs that aren't undead, Dream Visor is superior as it allows me to use my para xbow and which ever rune arm I desire to use, or need to use situationally. You see, bigger numbers are all good and all, but I'll take the smaller numbers as opposed to missing due to incorporeal. In the long run, the smaller numbers negating incorporeal mean that my average dps is going to be higher anyway. You can have +100 to damage, but if you miss due to the mob being incorporeal, you just did 0 dmg.

    So here I am with the flexibility of not being pigeonholed into a specific weapon, ghost touched/ghost bane, in favor of a weapon that I would prefer to use due to using Dream Visor instead of "hey, that has slightly higher damage, so I'll force myself to have to carry yet another xbow because bigger numbers". So no, just because one stat comes out higher in some situations doesn't mean it's superior.
    Well, in the case of Deadly X (+10 to damage), it is clearly better. Just slot on a Ring of the Stalker or Ethereal Bracers and you're good to go. So IMHO, yes, EE Dream Visors were left to rot...

  8. #68
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Is it really better, just because the damage is higher?
    In simple terms. Yes. Unless you can think of a situation where you don't want to kill the mob as fast as possible.

    I don't think so, and I don't think so because of the other stats on the Visor. Full time ghost touched equivalent comes immediately to mind. This means that vs undead, Dream Visor is superior as it allows me to use my Silver Slinger and Hand of the Tombs.
    You could also have used Eternal Bracers, Mabar Cloak, Ghostwalker Cloak, Spectral Gloves, there is a pretty good list of other stuff that could pull off this effect, so, giving up DPS for the effect is not really something players should have to do, nor want to do. That is where the problem lies.

    This also means that, vs incorporeal mobs that aren't undead, Dream Visor is superior
    And, which mobs would this be? Off the top of my head, I don't which mob or group of mobs, this is. So I don't plan for this specific circumstance. Which brings up the point that this situation you are talking about really only becomes a boon, if it exist or is common enough to justify the gear slot choice. It is more then just theory, but application of the gear and it's use in the game that come into play.

  9. #69
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    And, which mobs would this be? Off the top of my head, I don't which mob or group of mobs, this is. So I don't plan for this specific circumstance. Which brings up the point that this situation you are talking about really only becomes a boon, if it exist or is common enough to justify the gear slot choice. It is more then just theory, but application of the gear and it's use in the game that come into play.
    Only ones I can think of are quori.

  10. #70
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    No it does not. It's a graph showing an increase of Internet connection bandwidth from ~100kbps to ~100Mbps. It has nothing to do with the number of connections.
    And the "size" of the internet is a multi-dimensional quantity based on bandwidth, address-space-used, and number of users. In game terms those effect quality of gameplay, availability of gameplay, and potential customer base.

    In terms of userbase increase the internet has increased by a factor of about 5.6 since the year 2000.

    In terms of hosts available:



    The factor is about 100x since 2000. The bandwidth grew by about 1000x, the userspace grew by about 5x, and the address space grew by about 100x. You could argue that the internet size increased by a factor of 500,000. More people using more bandwidth with more devices in use per capita.

    Yet DDO has fewer people playing now than on the 1st of March 2006.
    Last edited by Raithe; 08-29-2013 at 09:32 AM.

  11. #71
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Here is a good indicator where you can tell all of the p2w, pay for convenience mechanisms etc...have peaked. In order to inject some more enthusiasm into the way the game is monetized currently, they have to sweeten the carrot. In order to do that, the quest loot people paid to obtain, and raid loot people paid to bypass timers to obtain much faster, needs to become obsolete, or at the very minimum, second tier. Why? People wont pay more for something thats barely an upgrade. It as ive been saying all along. Support for monetization of the game through selling character power, begets more of the same design. Stagnation in character power does not make money for a long period of time using this method of monetization. Once people have purchased all the character power they can, the only way to continue monetizing the game in this fashion is to increase monetized character power. Those who argued that this monetized character power doesnt affect anyone else who doesnt use it, when other people do use it, just got their wake up call. You embraced it, get used to it, its here now.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-29-2013 at 10:22 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #72
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Here is a good indicator where you can tell all of the p2w
    Before anyone gets on Chai about his use of P2W, please understand that he does not mean P2W in the original sense of the term, he is using the term to mean "Spending money to get game stuff"

    So, please, just ignore his use of this term is you are like me, and remember a time past where we called P2W being where Money invalidated game skill, that is not how Chai is using it.

    in order to do that, the quest loot people paid to obtain, and raid loot people paid to bypass timers to obtain much faster, needs to become obsolete, or at the very minimum, second tier. Why? People wont pay more for something thats barely an upgrade. It as ive been saying all along.
    The truth is, for a very slight increase players did buy bypass timers, they did run elite as opposed to hard or normal, they did put in more effort for very minimal reward, and they bought packs and farmed items for very paltry advantages, because that is the nature of competitive gamers, every little bit matters, so at this point, I can only conclude that Chai does not really understand the gamer dynamic he talks about, as everything he is saying is in direct conflict with what actually happens in games, and what had been going on in DDO for the last few years since I have been playing, sadly, it seems that FoS is equally missing the main point of the different styles of gamers among what makes up the community of a game.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-29-2013 at 10:44 AM.

  13. #73
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Once people have purchased all the character power they can, the only way to continue monetizing the game in this fashion is to increase monetized character power. Those who argued that this monetized character power doesnt affect anyone else who doesnt use it, when other people do use it, just got their wake up call. You embraced it, get used to it, its here now.
    Just one point, because it's rather funny you go on this tangent, because not sure if you understood this or not, but they invalidated the power from paid packs and raids, which drummed up the sale of bypass timers, with items that can be gotten from free quests, in effect, if their goal was to make money off this, this was like shooting themselves in the foot with a bazooka.

  14. #74
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    it seems that FoS is equally missing the main point of the different styles of gamers among what makes up the community of a game.
    And that point would be? I'm fully aware of why I at least went from being excited about new content packs to alternating between disgusted, resigned, and amused, to the point where I still haven't bothered to drop cash for the newest 'expansion' yet, but it'd likely hold more weight spelled out by someone that typically comes down more often than not on Turbine's side.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Here is a good indicator where you can tell all of the p2w, pay for convenience mechanisms etc...have peaked. In order to inject some more enthusiasm into the way the game is monetized currently, they have to sweeten the carrot. In order to do that, the quest loot people paid to obtain, and raid loot people paid to bypass timers to obtain much faster, needs to become obsolete, or at the very minimum, second tier. Why? People wont pay more for something thats barely an upgrade. It as ive been saying all along. Support for monetization of the game through selling character power, begets more of the same design. Stagnation in character power does not make money for a long period of time using this method of monetization. Once people have purchased all the character power they can, the only way to continue monetizing the game in this fashion is to increase monetized character power. Those who argued that this monetized character power doesnt affect anyone else who doesnt use it, when other people do use it, just got their wake up call. You embraced it, get used to it, its here now.
    wut?


    i understand the individual words you have written, but the order they are strung together into make no sense to me as a gamer. all i know is there are a few points while reading this senence/paragraph where i have the urge to LOL

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  16. #76
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    And that point would be? I'm fully aware of why I at least went from being excited about new content packs to alternating between disgusted, resigned, and amused, to the point where I still haven't bothered to drop cash for the newest 'expansion' yet, but it'd likely hold more weight spelled out by someone that typically comes down more often than not on Turbine's side.
    It's not diss on him, it's an observation. FoS was a player here, he most likely had his own way of playing, his own style of gaming, and the way he did things. You can see from the many views expressed on these forums that gamers get stuck into the mantra that their way is the only right way to play, from people dissing on TR's because of their twink gear, to fights between flower sniffers and zergers.

    A while back I made a comment that FoS as a gamer should know better then to do many of things he had done with loot, as a player, he should be more in tune with what players want. But, at the first response, It dawned on me that in the end of things, FoS was somewhere on that battlefield of geekdome and nerdfights among the warring factions of the DDO community, and like most gamers, he most likely has no ability to see the other side or respect/understand where they are coming for, for the sake of feeling that the way he plays (or played) is the right way everyone should play.

    It's not a dis, it is just a realization of the nature of people, however, like many of the people on this forum who can't or won't take the time to think about how other people might play the game, it hurts his ability to make a better game for everyone involved, because simply put, he is not thinking about everyone involved, and that leads to many wrong assumptions, much like the assumptions that run rancidly rampant here on the forums about the "other side".

    Just an observation, I think most people never poke out beyond their bubble, and even the few that think they do, often times are full of misconceptions, because they are simply outside looking in.

    Anyway. Nothing against the guy personally, I don't even know him, but, it seems that he is not really looking at the bigger picture and how each of his changes affect the different groups that make up the games community.

  17. #77
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Just one point, because it's rather funny you go on this tangent, because not sure if you understood this or not, but they invalidated the power from paid packs and raids, which drummed up the sale of bypass timers, with items that can be gotten from free quests, in effect, if their goal was to make money off this, this was like shooting themselves in the foot with a bazooka.
    Nope, because they are both making money off of shard sales, and they are setting it up so the next raid will entice people to buy even more bypass timers. In order for people to wish to do this that loot needs to be a significant upgrade. When the sales from timer bypass from previous raids tapers off, its time to inject more power creep into the game - enough to make people want to buy more timer bypass in order to acquire that new loot.

    Supporting directly selling character power, and claiming the company needs to make money somehow, then complaining about power creep, is a direct contradiction.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-29-2013 at 11:47 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #78
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    I always liked the idea of upgrading weapons, not replacing them. The caught in the web and epic gianthold loot are short-term examples of how you can upgrade weapons to be better instead of replacing them. The silver flame and emerald claw amulets are probably better examples.

    But I mean a more long-term approach. Keeping in mind these are not like the 'heirloom items' you find in WoW which upgrade as you level. Example:

    - Necropolis 1: you find a unique +1 longsword amongst other unique weapons

    - Necropolis 2: you get upgrade items to make this +1 longsword into +2 and then +3 and add 1d4 ice, fire, acid, or electric damage: Necropolis 2 also has other items of 'comparable value' to this sword.

    - Necropolis 3: you have a way to upgrade that +3 longsword to deal 1d8 damage and gain the keen ability, and increase its enhancement to +4: Necropolis 3 also has items of 'comparable value' to this sword and can upgrade some of the items from Necropolis 2.

    - Necropolis 4: you can now upgrade your sword to +5 and give it the ability to deal an additional damage type or gain +10 to a tactic effect like stunning or tripping: Necropolis 4 also has items of 'comparable value' to this sword and can upgrade some items from Necropolis 3 in a like manner.

    See where this is going? You might find something better than your longsword but if you take the time you can make your longsword into something you want to have. Or, you might also leave your longsword behind for a different weapon and begin upgrading that. This also doesn't make most of the previous items useless, because many of them can be upgraded, as well, or remain as strong, static items for those levels. This also gives many, in-depth levels of customization.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yes they're an idiot
    This word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means, and I have to say, you're throwing it around awfully freely, which you really shouldn't be doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    The only one of his examples I have had any experience with
    Because you're talking out of your posterior. You just said as much. So really, until you can speak to the subject without ignorance, you really should avoid words like "idiot" and "moron".
    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    I have the two singular best weapons possible for my rogue and use literally nothing but them. I'm fine with that, don't know why you would want the return of the golf-bag.
    Whether or not you are fine with it is irrelevant. It's still bad design.

  20. #80
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Before anyone gets on Chai about his use of P2W, please understand that he does not mean P2W in the original sense of the term, he is using the term to mean "Spending money to get game stuff"

    So, please, just ignore his use of this term is you are like me, and remember a time past where we called P2W being where Money invalidated game skill, that is not how Chai is using it.
    The definition you speak of was in the mid to late 90s. Welcome to 2013. Language evolves through its slang. the gaming world nowdays doesnt even remotely resemble those times, and neither do the definitions of 15 year old slang continue to be restricted to mean the same thing it did in that era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    The truth is, for a very slight increase players did buy bypass timers, they did run elite as opposed to hard or normal, they did put in more effort for very minimal reward, and they bought packs and farmed items for very paltry advantages, because that is the nature of competitive gamers, every little bit matters, so at this point, I can only conclude that Chai does not really understand the gamer dynamic he talks about, as everything he is saying is in direct conflict with what actually happens in games, and what had been going on in DDO for the last few years since I have been playing, sadly, it seems that FoS is equally missing the main point of the different styles of gamers among what makes up the community of a game.
    Odd that you dont get it, because youve been supporting and justifying it for a long time now. In order for the game to make more money, more people need to be enticed to buy shards to use the ASAH to buy the new gear, because "grinding" (actually playing the game) is such a chore. Funny, how you will claim anyone whose words or actions dont agree with your assessment of the situation is "missing the point" and I see that youre now including the very people who design and code the game in on that claim. The fact that they are doing exactly what I stated they would should drive that point home.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-29-2013 at 11:56 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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