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  1. #41
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    I'm going to use an example from Anarchy online which is an old sci-fi mmo I used to play. End game weapons and armor in anarchy online didn't have a best in slot until very late into the careers game instead they did what the video talked about. They made various different weapons of the same type that specilized in different ways of dealing damage and builds. Take hammers for example you had 1 hammer that had a very large damage range something like 100-1000 and the lowest armor class damage type so it could hit harder than other hammers but it was slower. It benefited from haste and base damage increases more then other because of how it was designed. Then you had a hammer with average stats lets say 400-400 damage range that was very steady on damage and debuffed defense rating for evasion. Then you would have another hammer around 300-500 damage range but lets say it had a higher crit mod and it did some other debuff.

    That's basically how the weapons and armor played out end game items were gave varied builds more choice and dps different ways to put out damage or utility while keeping dps pretty much the same.

    While end game raids had more versatility older items were made with special effects as well. for example the Enforcer profession (melee/tank) had a special tank armor gained form a level 30ish dungeon. This was the only armor in the game that gave an extra 1600 shield. Items with that unique flavor were carried around for a life time and made sure older content wasn't abandoned.

    I can't see the problem with DDO doing the same with their new expansions. Say you make 3 raids 1 has an outstanding ice armor, one has a great acid armor, and one has an awesome fire armor. You couple this with other unique flavor items that fill niches in specific builds and you build around this. Now you have content that is constantly revisited because you made items that matter. Then when you release new content sure you can have better ice armor but instead of just increasing the values give it some type of rare mod. If raid 1 had ice armor that had a chance to freeze whoever hit it have raid 2 have ice armor that saps attack speed by a % etc.


    In every MMo I've played I always had more fun especially where this gear choice is usually abundant( much like WoW pre 60). It's a lot more fun for me to say"well do i grab this sword that melts armor or do I grab the sword that let's me shadow step behind someone for a guaranteed sneak attack". You don't always have to get stronger number wise you can get stronger specialist wise. I find it gives the same feeling of advancement.

  2. #42
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    I'm going to use an example from Anarchy online which is an old sci-fi mmo I used to play. End game weapons and armor in anarchy online didn't have a best in slot until very late into the careers game instead they did what the video talked about. They made various different weapons of the same type that specilized in different ways of dealing damage and builds. Take hammers for example you had 1 hammer that had a very large damage range something like 100-1000 and the lowest armor class damage type so it could hit harder than other hammers but it was slower. It benefited from haste and base damage increases more then other because of how it was designed. Then you had a hammer with average stats lets say 400-400 damage range that was very steady on damage and debuffed defense rating for evasion. Then you would have another hammer around 300-500 damage range but lets say it had a higher crit mod and it did some other debuff.

    That's basically how the weapons and armor played out end game items were gave varied builds more choice and dps different ways to put out damage or utility while keeping dps pretty much the same.

    While end game raids had more versatility older items were made with special effects as well. for example the Enforcer profession (melee/tank) had a special tank armor gained form a level 30ish dungeon. This was the only armor in the game that gave an extra 1600 shield. Items with that unique flavor were carried around for a life time and made sure older content wasn't abandoned.

    I can't see the problem with DDO doing the same with their new expansions. Say you make 3 raids 1 has an outstanding ice armor, one has a great acid armor, and one has an awesome fire armor. You couple this with other unique flavor items that fill niches in specific builds and you build around this. Now you have content that is constantly revisited because you made items that matter. Then when you release new content sure you can have better ice armor but instead of just increasing the values give it some type of rare mod. If raid 1 had ice armor that had a chance to freeze whoever hit it have raid 2 have ice armor that saps attack speed by a % etc.


    In every MMo I've played I always had more fun especially where this gear choice is usually abundant( much like WoW pre 60). It's a lot more fun for me to say"well do i grab this sword that melts armor or do I grab the sword that let's me shadow step behind someone for a guaranteed sneak attack". You don't always have to get stronger number wise you can get stronger specialist wise. I find it gives the same feeling of advancement.
    It may work for you, and I've never looked at anarchy online, but I'd be very very very shocked if people didn't min/max those weapons and figure out mathematically which of those options would give higher average damage vs a raid boss. This means that if the bis item dropped in a low level dungeon that would be what was ran. There is always someone that will do the math.

  3. #43
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    the items were designed in a way that they fit the person build and not 1 size fits all. Even if you picked the huge 100-1000 hammer for example it was designed in a way that you may do extremely good damage from hit to hit but you may miss alot in the process. The moderate hammer would ensure that you and your alllies hit more because of the defense debuff but you wouldn't be able to spike your dps. The armors went the same way some had really high armor for a certain others had other forms of deflection.

    it wasn't until around the end of the Alien invasion/Xan expansion that BiS existed where 1 weapon was grossly stronger and they had a 1 size fit all armor called alien armor. Even then some weapons had procs etc that stould out for certain classes but by and large the power creep absolutely exploded and you had nothing but 1 weapon and 1 armor. You no longer brought your high ac armor for large spike damage fights and shield armor for high hit rate moderate damage bosses etc. Math largely had nothing to do with it before that. You were able to specialize around various gear at various levels and advance your role rather than advance your stats.

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  5. #45
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    I can't seem to grasp what most people wants anymore. New gears worth persuing without invalidating old one? Less character abilities? Is it a casual only game now or is there still some room for power gamers and simply more serious players?

    I just don't see how a game can survive without actually generating some new BiS every updates. I understand that the game was fine when GS, Alch, ToD rings, raid gear in general, etc was king... but on the other hand it created such a huge gap between the players that had that kind of gear and the one that didn't. I remember playing with people that wouldn't even understand how it was possible to be as powerful as I, or so many elite farmers were. They also had no way to actually acquire that gear since it was outdated (not run anymore) or they couldn't get a group for x raids. When DDO really changed (MotU), it made a choice. That choice was to make the game more accessible to every players, not just the one that had the knowledge. Because what I think is that in this game, knowledge is actually king. Not only the knowledge of the game itself, but also knowing who to farm with in order to get that crazy gear. Let's face it, if you run with a pug and are looking for that ONE raid drop, you're most likely never gonna get it unless it comes from FoT.

    These whining I see more and more often coming from veterans now seems to be only revolving around the fact that what they did (when the game was different), is getting invalidated. But those talks are about gear that is so old (level 20 Epic and under) that it seems to me that it's just a natural process even though players don't realize what's going on.

    It's the call of the mainstream... and I think it was well needed overall for the new folks. If Turbine had flip a coin on this, i'm pretty sure these changes were made to gather new players. If that wasn't the result, it just hurts the older players in general. Think this coin had to be flipped anyhow. It feels right, not for me, not for many of us... but for the average audience playing the game.

    When I was farming EEs, EDs seemed so strong that I didn't even feel the need to have all the BiS (which I would have wanted (needed?) in any other game). Only getting the best weapon as melee/range actually matters since it brings better DPS. This is much worse to me.

    Edit: I take most of this back. The more I read, the more I see I didn't know how bad it changed with the last update.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-28-2013 at 07:26 AM.
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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Honestly, please can everyone who works at Turbine watch this video ... Twice perhaps.

    Love the new shinies sure but for a very long time you have been rushing down this road and it's concerning. Case in point the EH while awesome would have been well received, I believe, even if it didn't bring more power. More Flexibility would have been enough honestly. Just really don't want to see you creeping right out the door.

    The issue with the current power creep is that it made so much invalid that they spent time an effort on (like MOTU and EGH) not just by adding more powerful ML 26-28 - but the redid the random item concept and destroyed items with lower ML.

    I just found a ML 21 pair of goggles that is on par with the dream visor and better, something like 4 in damage and 6 in accuracy. And I've found similar and better pairs with augment slots.

    This is just bad for the entire game.

  7. #47
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    DDO is in a unique situation were power creep isn't a bad thing.. now hear me out.

    We have gear that only comes from certain locations, this gear is still for some best in slot, like my kundarak boots try and take them off my feet I dare you!

    Now I'm not saying this is true for 90% of the gear. However with our epic system, and level scaling systems the future is bright.

    Turbine can easily extend all current quests raid and loot to scale according to difficulty and perhaps hopefully implement an item upgrade system.

    This gives you your power creep with sideways scaling in one. It is the best possible outcome for any MMO and the basis of this structure is already in place and starting to happen.

    Look at items like Unwavering Ardency, now this can be upgraded it is a much better item. Add new epic versions even better using an upgrade system again of course. Add level ranges to epics so you could run an epic normal at 3025 or an epic normal at CR30 or an epic elite at CR30 etc etc with an upgrade system and rewards to boot this could be applied to the entire game for a unified powercreep sideways expanded game.

    We are already seeing the start of this sort of system with challenges, I feel it is time to go from challenges to epic quest challenges, were after 20 you can select epic and the CR level of the quest, or even set the CR level of any quest in game and it auto scales loot and mobs.

    Of course the same flagging rules would apply but imagine how cool it would be to run an Elite ToD or Elite Shroud at CR6 and have materials / items drop at the corresponding level.

    I strongly feel this is possible with the mechanics they have in place now.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    My take-away from that video was the part where they talked about the card game where all the old cards were made obsolete... not just some, but all.

    This last update comes pretty close to that...

    I have no idea why we went from +7 being fairly easy to get to and +8 on named loot straight to +10 and +11...

    If the new random gen maxed out at +8, then the +8 named loot we worked for would still be good, and they could throw in some new +9 named loot to quest for.

    Shooting straight to +10 and +11, and adding Deadly X, and Speed X and many other effects like Holy III, Deception IV, Stunning V, etc. invalidates almost all our current gear... Even augment slots are found on random loot, so the old named gear doesn't even have that advantage.

    Turbine went way overboard with power creep (power sprint) this time on items...

    And there was no need to... Don't do it again Turbine... Power creep is necessary, but it needs to be slow and gradual and you should try to add ways to update old gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  9. #49
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Sideways options are better in many ways. Mainly they don't invalidate all old gear and and content where said gear came from.

    Dead raids . . . why are raids dead? They don't drop anything worth pursuing. Why is there nothing worth pursuing? Because the loot is out-dated junk.

    The Devil Raids is some of DDO's most fun content. It's barely ever run anymore.

    We have stuff now that doesn't LAST A SINGLE UPDATE before it's useless junk. Dream visor? Whisperchain?
    I agree with all of this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  10. #50
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It may work for you, and I've never looked at anarchy online, but I'd be very very very shocked if people didn't min/max those weapons and figure out mathematically which of those options would give higher average damage vs a raid boss. This means that if the bis item dropped in a low level dungeon that would be what was ran. There is always someone that will do the math.
    This is not the case, and I hate to say this, but until MotuD DDO had used the method to stop gap power creep very nicely.

    In fact, I personally was rather impressed and enjoyed the fact that something that drooped from a 10th level raid could serve you till the end game, it was a very, for me at the time, unique aspect of DDO, and one thing that made it enduring, and endearing, literally, the fact that players would run a raid half their level, at cap, because the gear from it was still viable, was a testament to the foresight of the team /person in charge of gear.

    Lets use an example, and look at Madstone Boots, Kundark Delving Boots, Gyroscopic Boots and Boots of Propulsion

    Now I am using these as they are mainly the boots that drop in various raids by various levels. So tell me, Which one is BiS?

    The answer to this of course is 'it depends'

    It "depends" on what? is the next question in that line.

    Well, it depends on your build, play style and what you are facing. There are a lot of factors to consider when you wonder which of these boots is really the best.

    While, in the simple sense, one could that 3 of the 4 boots give Striding, So it's pretty clear that if you you like to charge around really fast, Delving boots are not the best choice, but wait, maybe they are the best choice for, because maybe your build doesn't need striding to run faster, say for example, if you can trigger expeditious retreat, long strider, or even haste, at will, then striding effects are not that big a deal for your build and they are not a deal maker or breaker, like for example, a Wizard might rather Delving Boots over any of the other three, but keep a pair of Cannith Boots, for the click effect on them, in those needed situations.

    At the same time a Cleric might be looking at the Gyroscopic boots or the Cannith Boots, because they have the effects the cleric wants and fill a gap in their build, like striding, and FF, and the additional abilities are handy as well.

    So, yah, we can see that in the old end game loot, there was a lateral move to make gear still viable, not because it did not have better numbers, but because a lot of gear had unique special effects that made figuring out what BiS (if there even was one) a far more deeper question, contingent upon build, play style, and situation. That was amazingly good design and why the raids were run as much as they were.

    I would like to see more of THAT kind of care, thought, and consideration put into the loot as the game expands, what is going on now, well, I am not sure how to describe it, it looks like random directionless mess right now, which is kinda sad, because I think if the same effort that had been put into screwing around with loot gen had been put into developing new dynamic named items that inspired players to question which one words best for them, their build, and their play style, their would be much rejoicing as opposed to topics where the player base is trying to enlighten the development staff, on ways to stop hurting their own game.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Lets use an example, and look at Madstone Boots, Kundark Delving Boots, Gyroscopic Boots and Boots of Propulsion

    Now I am using these as they are mainly the boots that drop in various raids by various levels. So tell me, Which one is BiS?
    I would probably go with Boots of Speed [masterful, slot or two]. Get striding, some alacrity for when there's no haste available, and slots can be inserted with balance, jump, featherfall, stats or whatever to fit the build. At high levels those bypass all basic stats, you can carry propulsion boots for the occasional leap. Good point about gyro boots, but for the basic needs, Speed > striding.

  12. #52
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Lets use an example, and look at Madstone Boots, Kundark Delving Boots, Gyroscopic Boots and Boots of Propulsion

    Now I am using these as they are mainly the boots that drop in various raids by various levels. So tell me, Which one is BiS?

    The answer to this of course is 'it depends'

    It "depends" on what? is the next question in that line.

    Well, it depends on your build, play style and what you are facing. There are a lot of factors to consider when you wonder which of these boots is really the best.
    Of course it depends on build. I don't think there are two many games out there where the same item is bis for every single class which relates to build in ddo. That said lets look at it for raiding pre u14
    Melee dps -- madstone boots will do max dps
    Propulsion would be an ok choice for a caster, mostly a mobility item
    Tanking if that was needed probably propulsion out of the choices you gave.
    Never seen anyone want the gyroscopic since I started playing.

  13. #53
    Community Member der_kluge's Avatar
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    I'm not sure this is a DDO problem as much as it is a D&D problem....
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  14. #54

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    What they did to citw loot was brilliant and EGH as well. They added 2 upgrade tiers to citw loot through comms and expanded one raid to drop comms. The EGH loot is not more powerful then say MOTU (max 8 or +3 insight ability) but they added augment slots. It's a great way to add diverse loot and ways to grind for the stuff you like.

    With this xpack the more or less destroyed all of it. Random items with 10 in ability and augment slots. So much of the same deadly of whatever loot. No diversity of quirks. And the named items are bland. Other then the boots, the scimitar, the bsword and the orb, most of it is quite weak and unappealing.
    They should've made a few of the named items 9 at the most with maybe +2 exceptional or +4 insightful. And expanded random gear with multi purpose augments like green, orange and purple.

    Instead they added plenty of random stuff with max ability and multi purpose augments. And in the process thrashed all previous loot.

    As of now the only thing of value are named items with +3 insight, Dragon armor and Citw weapons. Everything else can be duplicated much better randomly.

    Oh and no items drops with heal amp as far as I can see - those 30 percent heal amp bracers are going to be rare.

  15. #55
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Honestly, please can everyone who works at Turbine watch this video ... Twice perhaps.




    Agreed.
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  16. #56
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Of course it depends on build. I don't think there are two many games out there where the same item is bis for every single class which relates to build in ddo. That said lets look at it for raiding pre u14
    Melee dps -- madstone boots will do max dps
    At the cost of being held, or getting stuck in sleet storm?

    Those Kundark boots are pretty attractive, and really rival the madstones, even with the loss of DPS and run speed.

    Propulsion would be an ok choice for a caster, mostly a mobility item
    Again, depends on the caster, for a Wizard that can't cast FoM but can cast FF, haste, and expeditious retreat, those Kundark boots are quite attractive.

    Tanking if that was needed probably propulsion out of the choices you gave.
    Really? because the increased HP and DPS from Madstone is pretty attractive, especially for a monk tank.

    That is part of my point, there is no clear BiS, as all of them have their own way of being attractive, all of them are trade offs, and all of them good choices in their own way.

  17. #57
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    At the cost of being held, or getting stuck in sleet storm?

    Those Kundark boots are pretty attractive, and really rival the madstones, even with the loss of DPS and run speed.
    look up I said in a raid, personally I've never been in a raid that didn't have a divine, ranger, or bard in it what so ever. kundrak boots are nice but they're for solo / short man when a fomer isn't there.

    Again, depends on the caster, for a Wizard that can't cast FoM but can cast FF, haste, and expeditious retreat, those Kundark boots are quite attractive.
    once again see above

    Really? because the increased HP and DPS from Madstone is pretty attractive, especially for a monk tank.
    Was thinking of standard tanks in my reply, and I didn't think madstone stacked with defensive stances.
    That is part of my point, there is no clear BiS, as all of them have their own way of being attractive, all of them are trade offs, and all of them good choices in their own way.
    Actually no for a raid where you are playing in a full party there are very very very obvious winners that will let you do whatever role you are going for better.

  18. #58
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    look up I said in a raid, personally I've never been in a raid that didn't have a divine, ranger, or bard in it what so ever. kundrak boots are nice but they're for solo / short man when a fomer isn't there.
    Ah yes. But at the same time you pretty much also answered the rebuttal, change the situation, and you change the importance of which item to use, making each item BiS situationally, which is exactly what the video was talking about doing.

  19. #59
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Ah yes. But at the same time you pretty much also answered the rebuttal, change the situation, and you change the importance of which item to use, making each item BiS situationally, which is exactly what the video was talking about doing.
    raiding or now ee's are the only time when the best becomes anywhere near useful. Anything less could be done naked.

  20. #60
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    raiding or now ee's are the only time when the best becomes anywhere near useful. Anything less could be done naked.
    We're just going to disagree on that.

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