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  1. #21
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I don't know what you people expect turbine to give you for goals. Games like league of legends and magic the gathering that the video suggested was doing a good job of handling power creep are pvp centric games. You don't need the power creep because the fun of the game is every encounter you have is going to be against different opponents, who are going to play different characters/builds/decks, and have different strategies.

    Then you look at ddo. Your only opponent...stupid AI. Every mob in every quest acts the same. Every now and then they release some quest/raid you think is somewhat complex...but soon as you figure out the winning formula...the AI just reacts the same way every time. That's not nearly as sustainable to retain players who want to log in and play just for the sake of playing, even though they aren't actually gaining anything in terms of in game wealth, as a game where you log in and face dynamic opponents and situations daily.

    The devs are stuck between a rock in a hard place. People complain if they put any effort into pvp, and those same people complain about power creep. What exactly do you want them to do? If they can't make the AI 5x better then any game that has been released to date to make pve more dynamic, and won't work on incorporating more pvp into the game as a work around for awful AI, all that is left for them to do is give people new shiny things to collect every few months. If people stop playing now soon as they get their new best gear set up each update...what do people expect to happen if turbine starts to release updates that have no gear worth getting? People will just log in, trash all the AI a few times through, then be like kthxbai see ya next update.
    That's it exactly. The AI and the complexity of quests just takes a matter of time to figure out and h,ow to beat it. Once that is figured out than it becomes standard and the knowledge gets passed down to others and found on wiki. There's some games where raids and adventures can take hours or days to complete. These days we have the luxury of a preview server and within an hour you can find completion times in the HoF. Imagine if mobs had more of a "brain". People would say its too hard and want it nerfed. The power creep only speeds up the process.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Then you look at ddo. Your only opponent...stupid AI. Every mob in every quest acts the same. Every now and then they release some quest/raid you think is somewhat complex...but soon as you figure out the winning formula...the AI just reacts the same way every time. That's not nearly as sustainable to retain players who want to log in and play just for the sake of playing, even though they aren't actually gaining anything in terms of in game wealth, as a game where you log in and face dynamic opponents and situations daily.

    The devs are stuck between a rock in a hard place. People complain if they put any effort into pvp, and those same people complain about power creep. What exactly do you want them to do? If they can't make the AI 5x better then any game that has been released to date to make pve more dynamic, and won't work on incorporating more pvp into the game as a work around for awful AI, all that is left for them to do is give people new shiny things to collect every few months. If people stop playing now soon as they get their new best gear set up each update...what do people expect to happen if turbine starts to release updates that have no gear worth getting? People will just log in, trash all the AI a few times through, then be like kthxbai see ya next update.
    First off, they could flesh out the end game a bit more. We currently have very, very few raids worth running left, when before u14 nearly all raids had something worthwhile.

    What they need to do is revamp the loot from Chronoscope, VoN and DQ. These are all epic raids, getting the loot from them is a genuine challenge but now they're almost all complete garbage. It can't be too hard to change existing loot (since they do it all the damn time). Improve the loot from those three raids and they can easily revive them.

    They can also make epic versions of existing raids. We already know they have epic shroud laying around somewhere. Ideally, all of the devil raids, but also Titan which has been dead for years. Up the CR of the mobs, add a couple of new mechanics and you have yourself a new end-game raid. Of course, they can't just endlessly recycle content, so hopefully there's a new raid coming out in the new couple of updates. The more raids to run, the more people will be online.

    As for stupid AI... what I'd really like to see is more special attacks, like Velah's breath. Attacks that, if you don't avoid them, you die. And unlike Velah's Breath or Stormreaver's Lightning Curse, make it so that you can't survive it with evasion or absorption. And more than a couple special attacks: tons of different moves that are used every so often.
    Last edited by Qezuzu; 08-27-2013 at 02:46 PM.

  3. #23
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There's powercreep and then there is the insanity of U19.

    There always has to be SOME power-creep, but you shouldn't go full-******.
    I won't argue with this, the video maker claims that all powercreep is bad and that new gear should all be sideways.

  4. #24
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    So what is it from the video they are supposed to avoid? Because frankly, after watching it and considering the several different characters I have running the same content, they seem to be doing a rather nice job with incomparables. My FvS plays content much differently than my assassin, both are the same level. My Arti plays the content differently from either one. The builds are different, obviously, and this is where sending out warnings to "watch this" regarding power creep fall flat.

    No, your level 20 character should not be as strong as a level 28 character. If this, and appropriate gear for the cap are what you are pointing at, then you are off base. If having more/better skills is what you're pointing at, then you are also off base. If levels don't matter, then we could all play with the level one gear, and be good to go for the entire game. Power creep comes up a lot in PvP centric games because it matters. Now I realize, there are people here that spend their entire day camped in the PvP zones of taverns, but frankly, it's an add on, and it doesn't matter here at all. When I feel the need to PvP, I got play Aion, a game designed with end game PvP in mind. Even it's having power creep issues, but there, it matters. Here, having level appropriate gear isn't power creep, it's advancement. I worked hard to get the Venom and Raven's Sight gear from Red Fens, and the gear stays valid for a long time, but it shouldn't be the end all of BiS gear, and it isn't. The same applies to Corsair set from 3BC, nice handy benefits in the level range, but all of it is eventually replaceable as my characters advance in level, and they should be.

    Now, there might be issues if all we did was get to cap and stay there. Games like the aforementioned Aion, and another actual P2W game called Rappelz jump immediately to mind, but we don't, at least, not often. My FvS, for example, has leveled through the Corsair set twice now, and will again, at least 2 more times. My TR'd Arti is still in it, but hey, lvl 10. So it may not be the BiS gear, but the set bonuses are still helping more than hurting, so I don't have to worry about replacing them, yet. But again, this isn't power creep, it's level advancement. Now, for a long time, people used GS as end game gear, and in the content, it was appropriate. However, there are 8 more levels added to the game for characters, this means that, despite how much time and effort one put into it, some of the gear that they have grown attached to in previous end game content, it may well be replaceable at some point. This isn't power creep, it's level advancement, and it's going to come with the territory.

  5. #25
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I won't argue with this, the video maker claims that all powercreep is bad and that new gear should all be sideways.
    Sideways options are better in many ways. Mainly they don't invalidate all old gear and and content where said gear came from.

    Dead raids . . . why are raids dead? They don't drop anything worth pursuing. Why is there nothing worth pursuing? Because the loot is out-dated junk.

    The Devil Raids is some of DDO's most fun content. It's barely ever run anymore.

    We have stuff now that doesn't LAST A SINGLE UPDATE before it's useless junk. Dream visor? Whisperchain?

  6. #26
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Sideways options are better in many ways. Mainly they don't invalidate all old gear and and content where said gear came from.

    Dead raids . . . why are raids dead? They don't drop anything worth pursuing. Why is there nothing worth pursuing? Because the loot is out-dated junk.

    The Devil Raids is some of DDO's most fun content. It's barely ever run anymore.

    We have stuff now that doesn't LAST A SINGLE UPDATE before it's useless junk. Dream visor? Whisperchain?
    I agree it's going fast with ddo atm, and that something needs to be done to keep raid gear viable longer. However every game I've ever played outdates general quest gear with a level cap expansion. I have no problem with the dream visor being outdated or the whisperchain. I'll also counter with the fact that the flawless dragon armors are still very nice. I haven't found a single armor I'd rather use more than a flawless blackscale.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Sideways options are better in many ways. Mainly they don't invalidate all old gear and and content where said gear came from.

    Dead raids . . . why are raids dead? They don't drop anything worth pursuing. Why is there nothing worth pursuing? Because the loot is out-dated junk.

    The Devil Raids is some of DDO's most fun content. It's barely ever run anymore.

    We have stuff now that doesn't LAST A SINGLE UPDATE before it's useless junk. Dream visor? Whisperchain?
    OMG.

    If no one runs old raids because the loot isn't the best, then why would people run new raids where the loot isn't the best, especially if it's going to cost them money to buy? This would be the worst business decision in the history of MMOs. We're going to release content that we need people to buy to stay in business, but we're going to make sure there's not any reason for them to buy it! (This is assuming that people only run content for loot, which seems to be what you're suggesting.)

  8. #28
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I won't argue with this, the video maker claims that all powercreep is bad and that new gear should all be sideways.
    Actually I don't think that is what he's saying at all. He's saying that if left unchecked it becomes a design time bomb that risks ruining the experience of playing the game and thus kills the game itself.

    He isn't saying that everything should be sideways he's saying that this is a tool that can be used to combat power creep.

    Power creep I think we can all agree is inevitable in an MMO, and the video states as much. What is bad is power creep that invalidates old content into irrelevance making the player who invested the time into that content feel their time is wasted.

    The track DDO is on now just means instead of doing 30 damage an attack to a 300 HP mob I am going to DDO 500 damage an attack to a 5000 HP mob. In the end I am not really much more powerful (relative to the content) than I was before however anything I played hard for in the past is rendered irrelevant.

    This I think is the problem. As I said if the enhancement pass had simply unlocked new build ideas and fixed the broken enhancements I think it would have been as well received, possibly even better received, than the current incarnation. There wasn't a real need to increase the power of the characters to achieve the desired result but they took the easy road knowing that if people were MOAR POWERFOLLZ then they wouldn't complain as much. At least initially.

    I think that is the central point that the video is trying to make. Unchecked powercreep, or worse yet intentional powercreep in the name of monetization, is ultimately bad for the game.

    With a game like DDO it used to be a lot more about the build and less the gear. Don't get me wrong gear is important especially in EE, but a good player with average to good gear can handle the content. With some of the new gear out there, and the power inherent in many basic builds, player skill is becoming less and less relevant.

    By making the content easy to beat with gear and the gear easy to acquire perhaps without ever even running the hard content needed to acquire the gear it means it's less and less of a personal investment in the game to get to "end game".

    The risk here is two fold. First the players who have been long time supporters are increasingly likely to walk away from the game entirely in disgust or keep to "their own" in running content. Second the new players cap it out so quickly they don't have enough time invested in the game to allow it to hold them. Once they sprint to the mountain top they take a couple of quick snapshots and then jump ship to something new.

    Thus if you slowly bleed out your long time supporters AND are increasingly unable to maintain new enrollments the game withers on the vine.

    Am I having fun playing the game, sure.
    Is it as much as I used to have, no, not at all.
    Am I spending as much time in game as I used to, not even close.
    Am I spending as much money in game as I used to, actually I stopped spending new money.

    From where I am sitting this should be a major concern to both Turbine and the Players.
    Last edited by SiliconScout; 08-27-2013 at 04:57 PM.


  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    snip
    ^This. Very well said.

  10. #30
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Thanks I have thought a lot about it for sure. Been heading down this road for years but it's speeding up hardcore.


  11. #31
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Actually I don't think that is what he's saying at all. He's saying that if left unchecked it becomes a design time bomb that risks ruining the experience of playing the game and thus kills the game itself.

    He isn't saying that everything should be sideways he's saying that this is a tool that can be used to combat power creep.

    Power creep I think we can all agree is inevitable in an MMO, and the video states as much. What is bad is power creep that invalidates old content into irrelevance making the player who invested the time into that content feel their time is wasted.
    See here is where I disagree. The only one of his examples I have had any experience with was WoW. The last time I played the level cap was 80, he's talking about how level 60 dungeons and raids don't get ran. Of course they don't, it's 20 levels behind in a game with no tr. That's why I think he's a moron with mmo design that thinks that all power creep is bad.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    See here is where I disagree. The only one of his examples I have had any experience with was WoW. The last time I played the level cap was 80, he's talking about how level 60 dungeons and raids don't get ran. Of course they don't, it's 20 levels behind in a game with no tr. That's why I think he's a moron with mmo design that thinks that all power creep is bad.
    I think you completely missed the points he was making. He never said that MMO's wouldn't have any power creep. He talked about how it is a danger and a problem that MMO's face. He said that game makers need to keep it under careful control or it will run the game. Then he talked about things you can do to help combat power creep.

    The simple truth is that the longer you can delay power creep while keeping the game interesting and fun the longer your game is likely to last.

    BTW - with smart design WoW was able to get players back into some older content he was talking about with a system like DDO's "epic" difficulty. At 85 I had a lot of fun running DM and SFK again. Then with the next expansion and 90 they updated Scholomance and SM.

    In many ways DDO has done a great job with this. A great deal of my interest in DDO comes from character building. I will never run out of builds to try. For example I could create 20 different clerics and have each one play very differently. I can also solo or group or raid as my time and preferences dictate. The changes to the enhancement system has helped increase my options in many cases.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    First off, they could flesh out the end game a bit more. We currently have very, very few raids worth running left, when before u14 nearly all raids had something worthwhile.

    What they need to do is revamp the loot from Chronoscope, VoN and DQ. These are all epic raids, getting the loot from them is a genuine challenge but now they're almost all complete garbage. It can't be too hard to change existing loot (since they do it all the damn time). Improve the loot from those three raids and they can easily revive them.

    They can also make epic versions of existing raids. We already know they have epic shroud laying around somewhere. Ideally, all of the devil raids, but also Titan which has been dead for years. Up the CR of the mobs, add a couple of new mechanics and you have yourself a new end-game raid. Of course, they can't just endlessly recycle content, so hopefully there's a new raid coming out in the new couple of updates. The more raids to run, the more people will be online.
    That's actually very far off from what the problem is. Look at games that have almost no power creep that have been popular for long amounts of time like Magic the Gathering or League of Legends. When you play those games, its for the experience. You don't play expecting to grind out the rainbow crushing gemmed sword of the giant gnome and pwn everything with it. You play because each opponent you face and each match you join is going to a different experience.

    DDO can't give that experience because all you face is the same stupid AI over and over. Sure you can go ahead and revamp some old content, but the reality of it is a lot of veteran players have already beat that content into oblivion. Its like epic GH. Sure a lot of people played it, but it really wasn't just for fun, they just wanted the loot, and soon as they got what they want its like oh thank god, I'm done in that **** hole. If this wasn't the issue there wouldn't be so much complaining about old raids not being worth it anymore because you don't get any loot. People would just hop in them and play them for fun.

    Ironically, the devs could introduce a few new end game raids, raids that could be the most well thought out, most fun raids that have ever existed in DDO, and put crappy loot into them, and loads of people would be complaining the loot sucks and the raids are a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    As for stupid AI... what I'd really like to see is more special attacks, like Velah's breath. Attacks that, if you don't avoid them, you die. And unlike Velah's Breath or Stormreaver's Lightning Curse, make it so that you can't survive it with evasion or absorption. And more than a couple special attacks: tons of different moves that are used every so often.
    Sorry man, I'm going to have to disagree on this one. That's not good AI. That's just a cheap work around for bad AI. All it does is bring back memories of running the abbot raid. The game lags for a few seconds right before he infernos and party wipes. It doesn't end with people saying oh man we just got outplayed by the AI, better try something different next time...it just leaves people saying wow...that was really, really stupid.

    I'd much rather just see more random elements added to dungeons then overly inflated attacks to compensate for bad AI. A large part of the problem why the AI is so awful in this game is because quests never change. There is never an element of surprise. Think for example, into the depths. When you get to the end fight for the first time, and mobs are spawning up on the ledges throwing spears down at you, the first time its like OMG HEEEELP. The second time you plop a fire wall down before they spawn and its like LOL.

    I wouldn't complain at all if they pushed the next quest pack back a bit and instead gave us a dungeon where you set the level, and it gives you a completely randomized maze to get through and the only chests are when you get to the end of it. You'd have to actually watch out for traps, since you wouldn't know beforehand where they are, you'd have to actually explore to find your way through, since the path wouldn't be the same every time, you'd have to conserve your resources since you wouldn't know where the next shrine(if any) was, and you couldn't gear/spec before hand to go in and obliterate the dungeon, because you wouldn't know what mobs were going to be in it. But back to the old carrot on a stick mentality that plagues DDO's player base...if you couldn't pull some amazing best in slot loot for running it, or it wasn't the best xp per minute, people would just complain its a waste of time and not worth bothering with.

  14. #34
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    Default I think it all depends...

    I think it all depends upon the way the company wishes to pursue their product. You can make design choices that allow the ability to solo content, or you can make it so that not one character can be boss and promote grouping. And I don't know that I can say for certain which way is better. One could argue depending upon which way you go, those against it will die out and those that like it will remain. It just depends upon which base is larger.

    Also the idea of power creep, to me, seems to relate to equally usable items. I would see new content added in the 25-28 range that was also usable 20-25 as power creep. I wouldn't see it as power creep if that content was only better for the range in which it was obtained. Not "this is the best weapon" but "this is the best weapon, for level <insert>".

    And personally I think if one is arguing power creep in DDO then the iconics starting at lvl 15 and the ability to auto level yourself to whatever level if you have an item are large reflections on DDOs tactics. This seems to point towards them prioritizing newer content over the complete package. The thought that I think of concerning this is "Well, long time players have played the lower level content to death. We should help them get past that point so they stick around enjoying the newer content."

    But to that point I question, when is enough? Given the number of races, classes, prestige lines, multi-class options, and now epic ditto, it seems that there are multitudes of options and avenues to pursue the game. The enthusiasm killer being the same old content over and over, I realize. When is enough?

    If you've played all the combinations, gotten your completionist three+ times, and are sick of the content, at some point don't you just go, "Eh, I'll play something else." And for a company is that so bad? Seriously, how long does it take to under take that. How much money does the average player spend on ddo in this timeframe*. And, how many people are there in the USA and overseas that are aware of and participate in DDO? Is it such a small base that we must at all cost retain them because new blood to the game is minute?

    So personally I feel DDO has embraced the power creep and have decided to ride it until it drops. Cause, lets face it. At some point you have to think it will dawn on them that they don't want to pursue the product any longer. They'll cut back, or redistribute, their development teams to other products in order to mitigate the amount of money they are putting into DDO and let it continue to bring in money so long as there are still new people finding the old content to be 'new to them'. Maybe not in the near future, but wouldn't be surprised to see it happen.

    Might have forgotten some things I was going to say, but.... oh well. Long enough.


    *Note: On the money spent on timeframe, one message I saw the other day seriously stunned me. Some character was asking about pets to buy or something because apparently they had accumulated (they said) two years worth of ddo points and had not spent it on anything and just decided to buy a pet. ....seriously? If you've accumulated enough ddo points to buy all the content and gotten to your third life so you can go straight to unlocking elite difficulty, WHY are you still VIP? I don't understand...

  15. #35
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laeelin View Post
    I think you completely missed the points he was making. He never said that MMO's wouldn't have any power creep. He talked about how it is a danger and a problem that MMO's face. He said that game makers need to keep it under careful control or it will run the game. Then he talked about things you can do to help combat power creep.

    The simple truth is that the longer you can delay power creep while keeping the game interesting and fun the longer your game is likely to last.

    BTW - with smart design WoW was able to get players back into some older content he was talking about with a system like DDO's "epic" difficulty. At 85 I had a lot of fun running DM and SFK again. Then with the next expansion and 90 they updated Scholomance and SM.

    In many ways DDO has done a great job with this. A great deal of my interest in DDO comes from character building. I will never run out of builds to try. For example I could create 20 different clerics and have each one play very differently. I can also solo or group or raid as my time and preferences dictate. The changes to the enhancement system has helped increase my options in many cases.
    Yes their heroic system brings content back again like how our epic system does. Blizzard doing DM, SFK, Scholo, and SM as heroic could be compared to doing egh. I'd say in many ways though Turbine comes out ahead though because of tr. That low level btc gear that just became twink gear to farm up on your way up so that when you tr again you can have it right away. Tempest Spine still gets run as does at level von5/6, if you tried to get an at level molten core going in wow do you think it would happen? I don't. He highlights wow as a game that gets it mostly right and you use that against turbine with it, when in reality ddo has more low level content being ran from my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    He highlights wow as a game that gets it mostly right and you use that against turbine with it, when in reality ddo has more low level content being ran from my experience.
    DDO does a wonderful job of keeping content in the game long term. For example, how long has shroud been out?

    I'm not sure what makes you think I was using that as an attack on DDO. DDO has done a great job at controlling creep so far.

    I just think the video had some very important points that all MMOs need to remember.

  17. #37
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    See here is where I disagree. The only one of his examples I have had any experience with was WoW. The last time I played the level cap was 80, he's talking about how level 60 dungeons and raids don't get ran. Of course they don't, it's 20 levels behind in a game with no tr. That's why I think he's a moron with mmo design that thinks that all power creep is bad.
    You didn't pay attention to the video then. Maybe you skipped or something. SiliconScout summed it up nicely.

  18. #38
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laeelin View Post
    DDO does a wonderful job of keeping content in the game long term. For example, how long has shroud been out?

    I'm not sure what makes you think I was using that as an attack on DDO. DDO has done a great job at controlling creep so far.

    I just think the video had some very important points that all MMOs need to remember.
    I was using you as a kind of generic there for the people that post about stop the power creep every single expansion. I started playing during phiarlen carnival update. I think there have been threads about stopping the power creep for just about every single update, minus maybe a couple like u18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I was using you as a kind of generic there for the people that post about stop the power creep every single expansion.
    That makes a lot more sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    OMG.

    If no one runs old raids because the loot isn't the best, then why would people run new raids where the loot isn't the best, especially if it's going to cost them money to buy? This would be the worst business decision in the history of MMOs. We're going to release content that we need people to buy to stay in business, but we're going to make sure there's not any reason for them to buy it! (This is assuming that people only run content for loot, which seems to be what you're suggesting.)
    DDO has new raids? Since when?

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