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  1. #1
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Default Turbine .. you gotta watch this, seriously.

    Honestly, please can everyone who works at Turbine watch this video ... Twice perhaps.

    Love the new shinies sure but for a very long time you have been rushing down this road and it's concerning. Case in point the EH while awesome would have been well received, I believe, even if it didn't bring more power. More Flexibility would have been enough honestly. Just really don't want to see you creeping right out the door.



  2. #2
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    Thumbs up

    Love it! Hope Turbine takes it to heart!

  3. #3
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Dude I have never once seen a game where there was no Power Creep. Look, for how long were people asking for a definitive successor to the ESOS? For how long were people wanting a new super bow? How long were people asking for Tempest to be made viable for the max dps spots?

    It's never going to stop. It definitely has the capabilities to slow down (I think the +12 stat items could hold over til lvl 30, but we might get a crop of +15's when that hits. If we do though, I say we stay at 30 for a long ass time) especially since there are random gen items dropping now with effects that just shatter the old best in slot items.

  4. #4
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    Very well done and interesting piece.

    The constant obsolescence of gear and especially content in DDO is troubling for players. It's also a waste for Turbine, because it represents an enormous amount of development time that is effectively lying idle.

    That said, the discussion of "incomparables" reminded me of the character build options in DDO, and especially the new enhancement system.

  5. #5
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Video maker was an idiot

    There has to be powercreep, the only thing to debate is the speed of it in a game that is raising the maximum level. If the level of power doesn't go up there becomes absolutely zero point to raising the level cap. As far as relating this to ddo it's even more asinine because power creep is in many ways limited by the tr process and level gating the gear. That old gear may not be the bis for endgame anymore but guess what it's awesome twink gear for while you're leveling back up to level cap again. Sorry but I really don't see your issues. Now there could be something said that the creep is going to fast but acting like all creep is bad is just .... well...........................

  6. #6
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    Dude I have never once seen a game where there was no Power Creep. Look, for how long were people asking for a definitive successor to the ESOS? For how long were people wanting a new super bow? How long were people asking for Tempest to be made viable for the max dps spots?

    It's never going to stop. It definitely has the capabilities to slow down (I think the +12 stat items could hold over til lvl 30, but we might get a crop of +15's when that hits. If we do though, I say we stay at 30 for a long ass time) especially since there are random gen items dropping now with effects that just shatter the old best in slot items.
    I think this is true, but at the same time more power isn't the answer. More flexibility IMO is. Take the enhancement pass for instance; When the idea was originally thrown at us the devs were talking about how we could have multiple Pre's through the racial tree's. This I think would have been a step in the right direction, more so if they had simply left the Pre's the way they were.(Obviously the broken/useless ones like Deepwood Stalker should have been finished/fixed and we should have gotten new trees for classes that only had one like Cleric.)

    This would have opened up new and interesting build options, while giving the feeling of more power, it would not have had the same power creep effect that what they gave us did. Basically, most builds would have been different, but not vastly more powerful. The AP's would be super tight on any build trying to manage 2 full Pre's so it would have, in a way, been a self checking system for power creep.

    In the end, the biggest selling point this game has is it's character customization. What this means is that diversity and wider building options will make this game go further than power ever will. The thing is, Sure everyone was asking for a better weapon than ESOS, or EThornLord but they weren't leaving in droves because they didn't get those weapons. Now though? When every update beings about more epic loot that outshines everything you just spent ages farming, people begin to ask themselves, what's the point?

    Sure ESOS may have been the most powerful THF weapon in the game for a very long time, And when MOTU came out a lot of the previous epic items were left in the dust. But this could have been fixed. By updating the old epic items to better suite todays end game. This would have made it so that there were clear best in slot items, but there were also a lot of other weapons that were nice to have regardless of this fact, and would have kept more people playing.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Powercreep is a needed evil. It should be fed, in small amounts. Small, gradual increase = good!
    Massive powercreep that invalidates many old items... Terrible.
    What DDO needs right now is some stability - next xpac will take cap to 30 (irrc), and we should stay there for a while. Give us lots of content at level 30, multiple raids, multiple endgames, and when (if) you raise cap beyond 30, small power increase. Go from, say, +12 items to +13. Or, better yet, +11 (current) to +12.
    And then raise level cap slowly, so that old content is viable. (and give some of the old quests a kick up the ass, hopefully giving them an epic version)

    *Note. Just because we ASK for better weapons, doesn't mean we should get them all the time :P

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Video maker was an idiot

    There has to be powercreep, the only thing to debate is the speed of it in a game that is raising the maximum level. If the level of power doesn't go up there becomes absolutely zero point to raising the level cap. As far as relating this to ddo it's even more asinine because power creep is in many ways limited by the tr process and level gating the gear. That old gear may not be the bis for endgame anymore but guess what it's awesome twink gear for while you're leveling back up to level cap again. Sorry but I really don't see your issues. Now there could be something said that the creep is going to fast but acting like all creep is bad is just .... well...........................
    said "idiot" is a renowned gaming industry insider and academic in the field of gaming theory. But I guess calling someone names is more fun and easier than to actually debate flaws you identify in his argumentation in a cool and decent manner. Did you actually watch the video? The DC madness of the last expansion is a rather good example of what is described in the video (the "tentacle monster" game breaker).

  9. #9
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    Dude I have never once seen a game where there was no Power Creep. Look, for how long were people asking for a definitive successor to the ESOS? For how long were people wanting a new super bow? How long were people asking for Tempest to be made viable for the max dps spots?

    It's never going to stop. It definitely has the capabilities to slow down (I think the +12 stat items could hold over til lvl 30, but we might get a crop of +15's when that hits. If we do though, I say we stay at 30 for a long ass time) especially since there are random gen items dropping now with effects that just shatter the old best in slot items.
    Rather than make successors to the best weapons, I'd prefer alternatives. For ex, my main is an artie. Once I got Needle, there's no point in using any other xbow except situationally. It would be nice to have an alternative to Needle. Not more powerful - rather, different and of equal power.

    It's too boring having only one best-item in slot. I prefer making difficult choices and trade offs, which is what I feel is happening now with trash-loot. I pulled the +4 evocation DC necklace and used it to replace my GS HP slot (45 hp + permablur and displacement clicky). Tough choice! And that's how choices should be. Not "Ok, I just farm out this one item and it beats everything else. Fine. Done."

  10. #10
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Video's solution:
    Create more situational based gear.

    But then, there have to be more dynamic and variable situations. That demanded an almost free dungeon design, free of fixed immunities or obstacles like invisible barriers.

    Players tend to take the route of least effort and resistance, though and used effort for designing difficult encounters may be trivialized by standing on one simple rock.

    I am for flexibility and diversity in item choice but as long as there is no fixed cap for some numbers to achieve, there won't be real balance. If there was a fixed limit for DCs, melee dps and such it is only a matter of how to achieve it and could be done by more than one gear setup. But still it became boring really soon.

    In any way I could live without +10 stat boosters. But is that something a company can really prevent? Today MMOs seem to be designed for shorttime profits by micro transactions. Maximum 2-3 years of expected profit. DDO made the jump to micro transactions and is successful as it seems.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 08-27-2013 at 04:33 AM.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Algreg View Post
    said "idiot" is a renowned gaming industry insider and academic in the field of gaming theory. But I guess calling someone names is more fun and easier than to actually debate flaws you identify in his argumentation in a cool and decent manner. Did you actually watch the video? The DC madness of the last expansion is a rather good example of what is described in the video (the "tentacle monster" game breaker).
    Yes they're an idiot when they stand up for ideals that don't make money because they're not what the population at large wants. It's the guy that stands up for his values loses his job and then his home, he's a moron for it. Powercreep gives players something to do. It gives them new shinies to chase and keeps them playing an mmo. An mmo is not a card game which is something he keeps going on about with magic etc. Speed of the creep can be debated and is a legitimate debate. But if there was no increase in power from 20-25 I'd freaking leave the game, any game. As far as dc madness while I haven't yet seen all the random gen combo's there seems to still be the limits of +2 dc at level 9, +3 dc at level 20+, +5 dc at level 25+. That means guess what your gear isn't completely invalidated, it's been turned into nice twink gear for the next time you tr. If you want to argue the speed of the creep I'd argue about the mistakes that were made with nightmares, and the new deadly prefix/suffix whatever it is.

  12. #12
    Community Member kissmybutt's Avatar
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    Default yeppers

    I still find myself using my lit2 and mins2 greataxe even at 25+ levels they just still seem to do a lot of damage even at higher levels.
    I know the game has better but after the farming and grinding to make the green steel weapons it's hard to just put them in the bank.

  13. #13
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    It's funny that you think the enhancement pass would have been well-received without the power increase. Even seconds before its release (and still some poor unfortunate people who are really bad at this game are still parroting it) everyone was making a fool of themselves talking about all the nerfs. They've lost all their credibility now, but if we didn't have the massive power increase, I believe there were many people on the side lines ready to jump in with their complaints.

  14. #14
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Algreg View Post
    said "idiot" is a renowned gaming industry insider and academic in the field of gaming theory. But I guess calling someone names is more fun and easier than to actually debate flaws you identify in his argumentation in a cool and decent manner. Did you actually watch the video? The DC madness of the last expansion is a rather good example of what is described in the video (the "tentacle monster" game breaker).
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  15. #15
    The Hatchery
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    Powercreep? Yes, there's always power creep. And then sometimes there's Usain Bolt-style U19 power sprint.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    I prefer making difficult choices and trade offs
    Well I don't. Not constantly. I make enough choices in real life.

    I have the two singular best weapons possible for my rogue and use literally nothing but them. I'm fine with that, don't know why you would want the return of the golf-bag.

  17. #17
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    I don't know what you people expect turbine to give you for goals. Games like league of legends and magic the gathering that the video suggested was doing a good job of handling power creep are pvp centric games. You don't need the power creep because the fun of the game is every encounter you have is going to be against different opponents, who are going to play different characters/builds/decks, and have different strategies.

    Then you look at ddo. Your only opponent...stupid AI. Every mob in every quest acts the same. Every now and then they release some quest/raid you think is somewhat complex...but soon as you figure out the winning formula...the AI just reacts the same way every time. That's not nearly as sustainable to retain players who want to log in and play just for the sake of playing, even though they aren't actually gaining anything in terms of in game wealth, as a game where you log in and face dynamic opponents and situations daily.

    The devs are stuck between a rock in a hard place. People complain if they put any effort into pvp, and those same people complain about power creep. What exactly do you want them to do? If they can't make the AI 5x better then any game that has been released to date to make pve more dynamic, and won't work on incorporating more pvp into the game as a work around for awful AI, all that is left for them to do is give people new shiny things to collect every few months. If people stop playing now soon as they get their new best gear set up each update...what do people expect to happen if turbine starts to release updates that have no gear worth getting? People will just log in, trash all the AI a few times through, then be like kthxbai see ya next update.

  18. #18
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Need more Bank/Inventory space, don't care about power creeps.

  19. #19
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Compared to most other MMOs, DDO doesnt have alot of power creep. We have seen more of it injected into this game recently than we have in a while, which is what is upsetting the status quo. What other MMO would a single weapon be the top weapon for 3+ years?

    This is a catch 22 issue, especially now with the advent of being able to buy gear with RL money. If power creep happens too quickly people who paid RL money for their gear will feel what they purchased gets invalidated too quickly, and if powercreep doesnt advance enough, people wont buy the new gear, or buy the ability to acquire it faster (if its raid gear).
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yes they're an idiot when they stand up for ideals that don't make money because they're not what the population at large wants. It's the guy that stands up for his values loses his job and then his home, he's a moron for it. Powercreep gives players something to do. It gives them new shinies to chase and keeps them playing an mmo. An mmo is not a card game which is something he keeps going on about with magic etc. Speed of the creep can be debated and is a legitimate debate. But if there was no increase in power from 20-25 I'd freaking leave the game, any game. As far as dc madness while I haven't yet seen all the random gen combo's there seems to still be the limits of +2 dc at level 9, +3 dc at level 20+, +5 dc at level 25+. That means guess what your gear isn't completely invalidated, it's been turned into nice twink gear for the next time you tr. If you want to argue the speed of the creep I'd argue about the mistakes that were made with nightmares, and the new deadly prefix/suffix whatever it is.
    You really, really don't understand what's being discussed.

    Power creep is not simply an increase in power, it's uncontrolled inflation. It's not just about gear being made obsolete, it's something that if left unchecked breaks the very psychological mechanic that motivates people to continue playing a game. It's why trolls and ogres in low-level quests are hardly an afterthought. It's why the only option for epic mobs are jacked up hit points and saves, and why there's such a huge difficulty jump between EH and EE quests.

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