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  1. #1
    Community Member Barhai's Avatar
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    Default You know what would be great? To know what supposed to stack in trees

    Since close to half of the abilities don't say what type of bonus they grant.
    And some definitely do not stack, or maybe they just don't work: with 7 trees at a time it's not practical to go by trial and error to find what's stacking or what's just not working.
    Oh and some don't stack with epic destinies either (LD pulverizer and kensai keen ability do not stack...).

    So more descriptions please.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barhai View Post
    Since close to half of the abilities don't say what type of bonus they grant.
    And some definitely do not stack, or maybe they just don't work: with 7 trees at a time it's not practical to go by trial and error to find what's stacking or what's just not working.
    Oh and some don't stack with epic destinies either (LD pulverizer and kensai keen ability do not stack...).

    So more descriptions please.
    I've gone under the assumption that everything now stacks, and haven't been disappointed. In fact, I would love to know what you've found that doesn't stack in order to get a clear picture of what exactly is going on.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I've gone under the assumption that everything now stacks, and haven't been disappointed. In fact, I would love to know what you've found that doesn't stack in order to get a clear picture of what exactly is going on.
    I've been told anything that has the exact same name and description wont stack (haste boost for example) wont stack. I'm not sure about same name but different description though (like the various toughnesses, dwarf 10 pt., FVS 5 pt. and SD 1pt./point in tree).

    But it is disappointing, with all the time spent working out the mechanics of the system, that the UI isn't reding things out properly.
    Last edited by Gremmlynn; 08-26-2013 at 03:26 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I've gone under the assumption that everything now stacks, and haven't been disappointed. In fact, I would love to know what you've found that doesn't stack in order to get a clear picture of what exactly is going on.
    Do you specifically mean enhancements that don't stack with other enhancements? I'm not sure about that, but there's certainly tons of enhancements that don't stack with gear, destiny abilities, and/or ship buffs. E.g. spellsong trance, divine might, bestial nature, kensai/acrobat/mystic crit range increases with pulverizer, etc, etc, etc.

    It's nice that enhancements stack with other enhancments now (for the most part, though don't think that's universally true), but not knowing which enhancements stack with gear/buffs/destines is just as frustrating.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barhai View Post
    Oh and some don't stack with epic destinies either (LD pulverizer and kensai keen ability do not stack...).
    Are you sure? My Kensai is showing a 17-20 crit range with mauls with imp. crit and those 2 which is where I expected it to be.

  6. #6
    Community Member Barhai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I've gone under the assumption that everything now stacks, and haven't been disappointed. In fact, I would love to know what you've found that doesn't stack in order to get a clear picture of what exactly is going on.
    Well my reflex saves, dodge bonus and dodge cap doesn't add up right for a start, I think the kensai ascetic ability is the one not adding up but hard to tell. Dex armor cap didn't seem to add right either.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barhai View Post
    Well my reflex saves, dodge bonus and dodge cap doesn't add up right for a start, I think the kensai ascetic ability is the one not adding up but hard to tell. Dex armor cap didn't seem to add right either.
    I've found that logging out after making changes will make some of them finally show up. However when I log out and back in, I often have to reset my racial enhancements.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Barhai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Are you sure? My Kensai is showing a 17-20 crit range with mauls with imp. crit and those 2 which is where I expected it to be.
    Except 17-20 is the crit range you get with just pulverizer and IC, without Kensai ability.

    With drow maul of the weapon master my crit range should be 19-20 (base)/18-20(LD)/17-20(kensai)/13-20(+IC)
    With regular Maul should be 20/19-20/18-20/15-20

    In reality I get 15-20 on the drow maul, and 17-20 wether LD destiny is active or not. Or if LD is active, then tried with/without kensai ability and got the same crit range15-20 for drow maul, 17-20 for regular maul.

    In comparaison when using a scimitar of the weapon master I did get the expected 17-20(base)/16-20(kensai)/11-20(+IC).
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  9. #9
    Founder Alavatar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barhai View Post
    Except 17-20 is the crit range you get with just pulverizer and IC, without Kensai ability.

    With drow maul of the weapon master my crit range should be 19-20 (base)/18-20(LD)/17-20(kensai)/13-20(+IC)
    With regular Maul should be 20/19-20/18-20/15-20

    In reality I get 15-20 on the drow maul, and 17-20 wether LD destiny is active or not. Or if LD is active, then tried with/without kensai ability and got the same crit range15-20 for drow maul, 17-20 for regular maul.

    In comparaison when using a scimitar of the weapon master I did get the expected 17-20(base)/16-20(kensai)/11-20(+IC).
    I think you're calculating IC incorrectly. IC just doubles the base crit range of the weapon. It does not double the bonuses you get from enhancements.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alavatar View Post
    I think you're calculating IC incorrectly. IC just doubles the base crit range of the weapon. It does not double the bonuses you get from enhancements.
    Nope. It doubles the bonus from most +range effects including both pulverizer and kensai.

    [edit] I should add that this really highlights the OP's point. A founder doesn't know how a pretty common ability works regarding stacking. That's not his or her fault, the description says +1 crit range, it's entirely reasonable to think it does in fact give a flat +1.

    The rules of this game are complex enough without the ridiculously opaque descriptions we get. Every tooltip and description should say what kind of bonus something gives and if it has any special interactions with other common bonuses and abilities.

    You shouldn't have to search the forum to find out if spellsong trance stacks with green dragon armor, or what kind of bonus acrobat attack speed bonus is suppose to be.

    I love DDO's depth, but I despise its lack of documentation.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 08-26-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Barhai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alavatar View Post
    I think you're calculating IC incorrectly. IC just doubles the base crit range of the weapon. It does not double the bonuses you get from enhancements.
    As any kensai using a slashing or piercing weapon will tell you: IC double the kensai ability and the extended threat bonus of certain weapons (such as drow weapon).
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  12. #12
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barhai View Post
    Well my reflex saves, dodge bonus and dodge cap doesn't add up right for a start, I think the kensai ascetic ability is the one not adding up but hard to tell. Dex armor cap didn't seem to add right either.
    Yes Bar they def dont stack with the ranger or monk abilities with the same name.

    My biggest issue with the update has been that I've spent A LOT of platinum resetting trees and epic destinies. Totally unacceptable to drop this on us and continue to charge plat or shards to make changes.

  13. #13
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    The stacking I've been wondering about is taking wand/scroll mastery enhancives from two trees. I could put some 150% boost to scrolls to use.

  14. #14
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Well we could add our stacking findings here for now, seeing as they are almost certainly not going to go through all of the descriptions and add stacking info, then an Interactions and stacking thread is the way to go.

    Put things you've TESTED here, please don't speculate.

    Faster sneaking Rogue/Monk/Ranger all stack and is faster than running, resulting in a super fast creepy looking Korean Water Zombie shuffle, now you HAVE to sneak because you're SLOWER if you don't LOL.

  15. #15
    Community Member zDragonz's Avatar
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    Well said.

    Trial and error and no way for us to know what stacks is not what I was expecting.

    This needs to be in place just as it was in the old system.

    Please figure this out and make it work.

    It is vital for us to properly make our builds.

    We have no way to plan builds atm. It is just click and good luck with no way to click back our choices unless we reset the whole thing. This is not up to par and I think you know this. (referring to the devs and not the op).

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by zDragonz View Post
    Well said.

    Trial and error and no way for us to know what stacks is not what I was expecting.

    This needs to be in place just as it was in the old system.
    .
    While I completely agree with the sentiment of the OP and others in this thread, I'll point out that the "old system" you refer to was largely documented on the fan created DDOWiki through testing and the trial and error of players. There has always been very little in game information on things like stacking. The enhancement pass has resulted in even less descriptive text in game, but it isn't unexpected given how poorly documented the old enhancements and other in game descriptions are (e.g. spells, feats, items, etc.).

    I personally find it frustrating to no end that the Devs put so much emphasis on asking players to submit bug reports but they give me very little ability to discern if things like enhancements not stacking is a bug or is WAI.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barhai View Post
    Except 17-20 is the crit range you get with just pulverizer and IC, without Kensai ability.

    With drow maul of the weapon master my crit range should be 19-20 (base)/18-20(LD)/17-20(kensai)/13-20(+IC)
    With regular Maul should be 20/19-20/18-20/15-20

    In reality I get 15-20 on the drow maul, and 17-20 wether LD destiny is active or not. Or if LD is active, then tried with/without kensai ability and got the same crit range15-20 for drow maul, 17-20 for regular maul.

    In comparaison when using a scimitar of the weapon master I did get the expected 17-20(base)/16-20(kensai)/11-20(+IC).
    IC (as well as keen/impact) only doubles the base weapon crit range and has ever only done that, the others add to that. The math is base 20/IC 19-20/kensai 18-20/Pulverizer 17-20. Swap out of LD and see that the crit range changes to 2x base+1 for kensai.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTastyHead View Post
    The stacking I've been wondering about is taking wand/scroll mastery enhancives from two trees. I could put some 150% boost to scrolls to use.
    This is one I'd really like to know about as well.

  19. #19
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    Totally agree. Game description of many enhancements, spells, feats, destiny abilities and item effects, old and new, are obscure and sometimes misleading. It's not fun at all to test them out one by one; besides, we don't even know the results are WAI or not. Bonus types, damage dices, trigger chances, DCs, cooldowns, durations, max caster levels, spell types and immunities should always be listed in an unified description format.

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